Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[40 deg south]

Thanks for sharing that. There was some quite interesting stuff in it.

Certainly gives a better look at the deck arrangement of the new NZ tanker than we have seen before.

Video: Day 2 at Euronaval 2016 / Focus on FTI Mid-Size Frigate

Euronaval Day 2 video is here.

I'm impressed with the concept of the new DCNS mid-size frigate: the Belh@rra (despite the gimmicky name with @ - Belharra is a big-wave surfing zone off the French coast). This gives the company a complete range from Gowind OPV/ corvette (1500-2500 tonnes), Belharra light frigate (various sizes/lengths around 4000t) and Fremm (6000 tonnes).

Euronaval 2016: DCNS officially introduces BELH@RRA front-line digital frigate

 

[ngatimozart]

Cetainly gives a better look at the deck arrangement of the new NZ tanker than we have seen before.

Video: Day 2 at Euronaval 2016 / Focus on FTI Mid-Size Frigate

Euronaval Day 2 video is here.

I'm impressed with the concept of the new DCNS mid-size frigate: the Helh@rra (despite the gimmicky name with @ - Belharra is a big-wave surfing zone off the French coast). This gives the company a complete range from Gowind OPV/ corvette (1500-2500 tonnes), Belharra light frigate (various sizes/lengths around 4000t) and Fremm (6000 tonnes).

Euronaval 2016: DCNS officially introduces BELH@RRA front-line digital frigate

You beat me to it. I have just watched it and it is quite interesting. I also found this: CATAMARAN joint amphibious exercise French Navy & Army Aircraft Carrier Mistral class LHD LPD Rafale which was a joint amphibious exercise two years ago involving the French CVN, General Charles de Gaulle, a couple of Mistral LHDs and other assets. Quite interesting to watch.

 

[chis73]

DefenseWebTV has a short YouTube featuring Hyundai at Euronaval 2016. 5:20 in features the RNZN model of our Polar Tanker.

Anyone else notice the helo on the flight deck at 5:54? That ain't a NH90 (it was in the officially released graphics). That's a bit cheeky from HHI, especially at a Euro exhibition (in France no less). I wonder if there is some deeper significance? :rotfl

 

[40 deg south]

Anyone else notice the helo on the flight deck at 5:54? That ain't a NH90 (it was in the officially released graphics). That's a bit cheeky from HHI, especially at a Euro exhibition (in France no less). I wonder if there is some deeper significance? :rotfl

So what is it? Korea's own Surion?

My guess it was whatever helicopter model they had lying around when they were putting finishing touches to the ship.

If any nautical types are able to give informed commentary on the forward deck layout I'd be very grateful. What are the large (but smaller than a TEU) boxes on either side?

 

[Novascotiaboy]

40 Deg south

Just my two cents on the container question. Directly behind the Phalanx there appears to be double stacked TEU's. Alongside the elevated walkway there appears to be bicons, or half sized shipping containers. http://seabox.com/catdl/sb1/sb8436/sb843.6.pdf

The layout is similar to what Davie is doing with Project Resolve by storing the containers as far forward as possible. In Davies design, which has many similarities to your RR design, the containers are covered to protect them during winter transits. Resolve Class AOR – Federal Fleet

The two large structures midships on previous images showed TEU's on pedestals but the model in the video appears to be a double height structure with a walkway and railings.

As for the the model chopper on the stern deck it appears to be a Romeo. Long and narrow tail boom.

The reduced height of the superstructure behind the bridge could be in filled to allow more space for accommodations or for an enhanced hospital space. Seems odd to leave that area void.

I am still concerned about the low exposed freeboard on the working deck while operating in heavy weather. Regardless of freezing conditions it will be awash.

Still a very impressive vessel that will be in high demand as it is a very capable ship.

 

[40 deg south]

40 Deg south

Just my two cents on the container question. Directly behind the Phalanx there appears to be double stacked TEU's. Alongside the elevated walkway there appears to be bicons, or half sized shipping containers. http://seabox.com/catdl/sb1/sb8436/sb843.6.pdf

The layout is similar to what Davie is doing with Project Resolve by storing the containers as far forward as possible. In Davies design, which has many similarities to your RR design, the containers are covered to protect them during winter transits. Resolve Class AOR – Federal Fleet

The two large structures midships on previous images showed TEU's on pedestals but the model in the video appears to be a double height structure with a walkway and railings.

As for the the model chopper on the stern deck it appears to be a Romeo. Long and narrow tail boom.

The reduced height of the superstructure behind the bridge could be in filled to allow more space for accommodations or for an enhanced hospital space. Seems odd to leave that area void.

I am still concerned about the low exposed freeboard on the working deck while operating in heavy weather. Regardless of freezing conditions it will be awash.

Still a very impressive vessel that will be in high demand as it is a very capable ship.

Nova
Your comments much appreciated by this landlubber.

Fixed 'bicons' (a new term to me) looks right. What would they likely be used for - ship's stores for the vessel itself, or goods ready for imminent transfer to another ship?

I've pored over the container pictures, and think your interpretation is correct. The initial CGI shots definitely showed two blocks of four TEUs on a sort of raised gantry/pedestal. I'm unsure why, as it would surely raise the vessel's centre of gravity and make access to the contents more difficult. Unless it was to leave more deck space free, but for what? The video does seem to show two double-stacks of eight TEUs. Possibly the gantry means the lower tier of TEUs can be removed without having to first lift off the upper layer? I'm sure there is a good explanation, but haven't yet heard it. (Incidentally, the RFI required a minimum of 12 TEUs in a single layer, so that means there must be four immediately behind the Phalanx, with the possibility (unclear from pictures) of them being double-stacked to eight?)

Interesting comment on the freeboard - that would certainly make refuelling more of a challenge!

The lack of ice covers might reflect the expectation that the ship will only make a single run south to the ice each summer, and will spend most of her time in more temperate Pacific waters? However, that is pure speculation on my part.

 

[chis73]

NovaScotiaBoy has beaten me to it. The helicopter appears to be some form of Sea Hawk, judging from the horizontal stabilizer & the position of what I think is the tail-wheel. The Korean Navy has no Sea Hawks, just Blackhawks (UH-60P); they were considering the Romeo a few years ago, but bought AW159 Wildcats instead.

The boxes 40degS is referring to are the ones outboard & slightly forward of the crane, and at the forward end of the amidships TEU block. In the original graphics, they are open-topped & covered by tarpaulins (not as obvious on the model). I don't think they are 'bi-cons'. I assumed they were stowage areas for the equipment associated with the crane (ie a frame to help with lifting containers, plus strops, lines, slings, cargo nets, maybe spare pallets, perhaps hoses if they intend to use the crane as a refuelling rig). The boxes are all within easy reach of the crane. Perhaps they hold bulky items like fenders - but like 40degS, I'm just guessing. I doubt they contain boats or life-rafts.

Other changes noticed in the model:
- The sides of the elevated walkway are now enclosed. This perhaps creates an ice-free access-way fore-and-aft on the deck under the walkway.
- The winches for the RAS system have been moved a deck lower. Again, I expect this is to do with ice-protection.
- The elevated TEU deck (meccano deck) has been extended out to the sides of the ship.
- the forward TEUs now seem to run fore-and-aft lengthways. Previously they were athwartships
There are probably others. Anyone?

 

[ngatimozart]

40 Deg south

Just my two cents on the container question. Directly behind the Phalanx there appears to be double stacked TEU's. Alongside the elevated walkway there appears to be bicons, or half sized shipping containers. http://seabox.com/catdl/sb1/sb8436/sb843.6.pdf

The layout is similar to what Davie is doing with Project Resolve by storing the containers as far forward as possible. In Davies design, which has many similarities to your RR design, the containers are covered to protect them during winter transits. Resolve Class AOR – Federal Fleet

The two large structures midships on previous images showed TEU's on pedestals but the model in the video appears to be a double height structure with a walkway and railings.

As for the the model chopper on the stern deck it appears to be a Romeo. Long and narrow tail boom.

The reduced height of the superstructure behind the bridge could be in filled to allow more space for accommodations or for an enhanced hospital space. Seems odd to leave that area void.

I am still concerned about the low exposed freeboard on the working deck while operating in heavy weather. Regardless of freezing conditions it will be awash.

Still a very impressive vessel that will be in high demand as it is a very capable ship.

Looking at the model image, I think that all the containers modelled are 20ft TEUs. I've worked extensively with 10ft, 20ft, 40ft containers and flat-racks and the boxes modelled on the ship appear to have the dimensions of 20ft TEUs (20ft x 8ft x 8ft). I am reasonably sure from looking at the video that 10ft containers are not represented because the dimensions just look wrong. A 10 ft box is 10ft x 8ft x 8ft.

 

[40 deg south]

NovaScotiaBoy has beaten me to it. The helicopter appears to be some form of Sea Hawk, judging from the horizontal stabilizer & the position of what I think is the tail-wheel. The Korean Navy has no Sea Hawks, just Blackhawks (UH-60P); they were considering the Romeo a few years ago, but bought AW159 Wildcats instead.

The boxes 40degS is referring to are the ones outboard & slightly forward of the crane, and at the forward end of the amidships TEU block. In the original graphics, they are open-topped & covered by tarpaulins (not as obvious on the model). I don't think they are 'bi-cons'. I assumed they were stowage areas for the equipment associated with the crane (ie a frame to help with lifting containers, plus strops, lines, slings, cargo nets, maybe spare pallets, perhaps hoses if they intend to use the crane as a refuelling rig). The boxes are all within easy reach of the crane. Perhaps they hold bulky items like fenders - but like 40degS, I'm just guessing. I doubt they contain boats or life-rafts.

Other changes noticed in the model:
- The sides of the elevated walkway are now enclosed. This perhaps creates an ice-free access-way fore-and-aft on the deck under the walkway.
- The winches for the RAS system have been moved a deck lower. Again, I expect this is to do with ice-protection.
- The elevated TEU deck (meccano deck) has been extended out to the sides of the ship.
- the forward TEUs now seem to run fore-and-aft lengthways. Previously they were athwartships
There are probably others. Anyone?

Thanks Chis, much appreciated.

Has any date been released for the point where the design will be frozen and construction begin?

Also, do you have any insights into how responsibilities are divided when the designer and the builder are different companies? I could certainly see potential for conflict/miscommunication there.

 

[alexsa]

Looking at the model image, I think that all the containers modelled are 20ft TEUs. I've worked extensively with 10ft, 20ft, 40ft containers and flat-racks and the boxes modelled on the ship appear to have the dimensions of 20ft TEUs (20ft x 8ft x 8ft). I am reasonably sure from looking at the video that 10ft containers are not represented because the dimensions just look wrong. A 10 ft box is 10ft x 8ft x 8ft.

Just a correction, From the 70s onwards the standard height of an ISO box when to 8'6" (real pain for the ships built to the original height - I worked on a first gen fast box boat designed for cooled intergal reefer units..... the change in height really bugged up the access for cooling lines). We now have maxi cubes rat go to 9'6" which makes lashing a bit of fun. I suspect the boxes are the 8'6" hight units.

 

[ngatimozart]

Just a correction, From the 70s onwards the standard height of an ISO box when to 8'6" (real pain for the ships built to the original height - I worked on a first gen fast box boat designed for cooled intergal reefer units..... the change in height really bugged up the access for cooling lines). We now have maxi cubes rat go to 9'6" which makes lashing a bit of fun. I suspect the boxes are the 8'6" hight units.

Cool thanks. I was doing it from memory. Back in the nineties the Hi-Cubes weren't able to be carried right through the NZ North Island by rail because a couple of tunnels before Wellington were to low for them. So they had to offload them at Palmerston North & truck them to Wellington. Since then they've lowered the track in the tunnels.

 

[ngatimozart]

The next question i suppose would be, with a third frigate, and say six total OPV, would mean hundreds of more crew to recruit, obviously. Could we accomplish this within the budget?

Not necessarily. The current ANZAC frigate crew is around the 180 mark so with new frigates and automation, crew numbers could be cut to around the 100 - 120 mark. With regard to six OPVs, we currently have two plus four IPVs, so would need extra crew for the four extra OPVs to make up the difference between the IPV crew number & OPV crew numbers because we would get rid of the IPVs. So maybe less than 100 need to be recruited. If we got an LHD / LPD as well then that could take the number up to 200 - 300, which would be good for the RNZN because it does need a wee bit of fat on the personnel side, especially within the technical branches.

The acquisition of the vessels come out of the Capital Expenditure budget, with the crew costs coming out of the Operational Budget, so the annual operational budget allocation for RNZN personnel costs would have to be increased.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Would the LHD,LPD idea you have be in addition to, or a replacement of Canterbury? id imagine she would be in service for a few decades yet,having gone through lengthy remedial work. In which case, that would put her outside of the 15 yr spend up on defence mentioned in the DWP.

 

[t68]

Would the LHD,LPD idea you have be in addition to, or a replacement of Canterbury? id imagine she would be in service for a few decades yet,having gone through lengthy remedial work. In which case, that would put her outside of the 15 yr spend up on defence mentioned in the DWP.

Wonder if Ocean is in good enough material state and cheap enough with a re-fit that NZ can use her for say another 12-15 years, gives them exposure to multi-spot helicopter deck with the capabilty and up to a Battalion of troops and equipment.

Hopefully it could be a cheap interim buy to get there feet wet till they decide what they want for the JATF.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Just had a look at Hms Ocean, surprised she was decomissioned a yr after a 98 million refit! I wonder wether our dry docks would be big enough for even our new tanker , let alone that one or the Rotterdam Lpd i was looking at earlier.

 

[ngatimozart]

Would the LHD,LPD idea you have be in addition to, or a replacement of Canterbury? id imagine she would be in service for a few decades yet,having gone through lengthy remedial work. In which case, that would put her outside of the 15 yr spend up on defence mentioned in the DWP.

The LHD / LPD would be in addition to Canterbury with Canterbury taking a role of amphibious force logistical ship a bit like an LSD but without the well dock. When Canterbury is eventually paid off and decommissioned, then she would be replaced by a LPD in a similar role and as a backup for the main LHD / LPD.

Regarding HMS Ocean, she's coming up 20 years old and has a crew of 285 and that's without the aviation side. I also think it's a bit on the large size for NZ and a $98 million refit is not a major refit for a ship that size. So the question is what work would have to be done to ensure a further 15 years operational use of it by the RNZN and how much extra would the cost be over and above the acquisition cost?

 

[t68]

This is the open source infomation on Oceans last re-fit, it doesn't tell us what sort of condition or work is needed to carry on but what was done for the money at last refit.

Dec 12/12: Refit. The UK MoD announces another refit for HMS Ocean. Her 15-month, GBP 65 million (about $105 million) upgrade will be carried out in the newly developed 10 Dock facility at Babcock’s Devonport Royal Dockyard in Plymouth. The work will secure about 300 jobs in Devonport, plus another 300 or so jobs with over 70 contractors who are set to be involved in the project.

Defensive upgrades include the new Type 997 “Artisan” Medium Range Radar system; 4 automated 30mm cannons and 20 km of accompanying power and control cabling to replace existing 20mm manned guns, and complement the ship’s 3 MK15 Phalanx advanced 20mm close-in weapon systems; a new fire detection system; the new multi-service Defence Information Infrastructure (Future) (DII(F)) communications system; and the DNA(2) Command System.

Mechanical and crew improvements include a first-of-class ballast water treatment system, and a first-of-class Membrane Bio-Reactor (MBR) system to treat waste water and sewage. They’ll ensure compatibility with environmental legislation and permit discharge at sea. Represervation work on the ship, and numerous improvements to crew quarters and facilities, round out major requirements. In all, about 1.2 km of new pipework will be installed; over 100 pumps, motors and valves will be overhauled in Babcock’s main factory, and around 100,000 litres of paint will be applied; and major structural modifications will be made to the interior of the ship.

Babcock has also introduced a number of improvements and new processes of its own to optimise delivery of this upkeep, including a new organisation structure in the form of zone management to further improve the planning and execution. Royal Navy | Babcock International .

Also whilst Ocean might be a little large now it seems to fit in with the future plans for the JATF,

Looking beyond 2015 and 2020, one of the major challenges will be bringing together and integrating the C4ISR (Command, Control, Communication, Computing, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance).*

“The objective after 2020 is to strengthen our capability to operate independently.* That means developing our command and control skills, and extending these to networked operations and integrated ISR.* In the past, we relied on plugging into someone else’s organisation.* In the future, the goal is to have a New Zealand-led joint and inter-agency focused operation.”

Certainly Ocean would bring these capabilty to the table in spade, and if you can get her till last till the mid 2030 it ties into the replacement capabilty penciled in

Beyond 2020 – 2035* the strategic plan sees the strengthening of capabilities across the three services. It is later in this period that the frigates, the Inshore and Offshore Patrol Vessels and the Amphibious Sealift Vessel are due to be replaced.*

 

[Novascotiaboy]

HMS Ocean is due to retire from the RN in 2018. If the NZ government could be convinced of the value of such a large purchase and the price is right then that leaves two years to post RNZN personnel aboard to learn how to operate and maintain her.

At 200 m she is a big girl. The entire rotary wing fleet of NZDF could deploy from her at one time.

It's an interesting proposal that has merit but can the RNZN crew her?

It would be an impressive addition but is it too much of a jump for NZDF to take?

 

[t68]

HMS Ocean is due to retire from the RN in 2018. If the NZ government could be convinced of the value of such a large purchase and the price is right then that leaves two years to post RNZN personnel aboard to learn how to operate and maintain her.

That would be the most prudent thing to do.

At 200 m she is a big girl. The entire rotary wing fleet of NZDF could deploy from her at one time.

Whilst NZ would struggle to fill her in the near term, if the situation warrants it ADF could use an additional lift if one of the LHD in the dock for some time if the RAN/RNZN can get the refits in at cycle that would make two big flat tops avalible in the Pacfic at all times.

It's an interesting proposal that has merit but can the RNZN crew her?

I think that's going to be the overriding factor goverment would have to look at, you never know they might entice some of the poms for a sea change.

It would be an impressive addition but is it too much of a jump for NZDF to take?

Would require a huge leap of faith from the goverment with an early expansion of the overall NZDF

 

[spoz]

Ocean was built to a price and a designed life time. It's my understanding she is not particularly popular with the RN and has reliability issues. IMO New Zealand has better things to spend its money on than a ship which is likely to be clapped out by the time the UK finishes with her.

While the RAN got reasonably good value out of the Bobsey Twins, it was only after some difficult periods - and the real purpose was to demonstrate that the RAN needed a capability. It was always realised that we would need to build new; it was just a matter of demonstrating that need. It's not a route I would recommend!