Royal New Zealand Air Force

[MrConservative]

However for RNZAF to use any weapon systems they need to be proficient in it's use so it really has to be part of the arsenal & training syllabus from the get-go. Most likely by the time an emergency purchase is required it's probably already too late!

There are simulation & training missiles. UTM-84L's if they are going into the Harpoon camp or they may go for the JSM camp. The good news is 6 hours old so I can wait until it becomes clearer. Best of all they got the right platform for the next 35 years!

 

[Todjaeger]

Re P8: True and we do need to ensure we do keep inn step. However for RNZAF to use any weapon systems they need to be proficient in it's use so it really has to be part of the arsenal & training syllabus from the get-go. Most likely by the time an emergency purchase is required it's probably already too late!

I agree that the NZDF should also look at getting some sort of standoff AShM or other multi-role PGM, and of course develop a doctrine for use and train on it. My point was more about what options there would be, provided NZ did not at some point go it's own way with upgrades. Again referring back to the re-wing of the Orions, if something had come up, or were to come up now, where the Orions needed an anti-shipping capability there would be a very significant hurdle to overcome, beyond just getting the ordnance and training crews on how to use it. The Orions would need to be re-winged again, but this time with the appropriate wiring harness and databus installed in the wing. Even if this was done on an emergency basis, I suspect it would likely take weeks to carry out such an installation.

I am a fan of the B757 but yes it was a compromise, I suspect mostly limited by budget - it was likely an easy one to get over the goal line to replace the B727 'like for like'.

Having seen what the costs were just for the 2nd hand aircraft, I am now trying to see what else was available in terms of aircraft, and at what pricing. The latest model of the B737 MAX goes for about 4x what the used B757's went for, but that is in 2018 dollars and not 2003 dollars.

 

[shanes_world_05]

I wish it was more than 4. In terms of simulators I listened to an interview of a P-8 pilot (US Navy) and it seems a great team cohesion tool. Heres the link if your interested.

Its a good channel too by the way. Nick Anderson, Former RAF and RAAF exhangee was another good one.
Regards the numbers though. I just don't understand how 4 can work unless the taskings are based on one only scenario at a time. Maintenance should be pretty lean though. I would have thought 5. Which would assure international deployment, domestic patrolling, one in a maintenance cycle, one for qualification (simulator might alleviate that) and one in reserve. That's before a war or war like scenario and possible convoy/merchant escort duty which we would be reliant on in that conflict/confrontation type setting. I keep thinking of a statement I will steal from former RN Admiral Chris Parry. Too valuable to loose, too valuable to use. And then the availability in 30 years time also is a concern after they have been out of production
I would hope that force planning was based in some way around how many tons of goods coming and going are needed to sustain the country and its economy divided by the number of ships from different ports times the degree of protection to ensure that was maintained. I suspect though it is more based around what the most vehement opposition cannot overturn and that we can get away with.
Also NG have seen your comments in the MSM. Really well polished and so much more obviously informed than the average punter.
I am wary of Drone suggestion also. Given speculation regarding Russian jamming, spoofing and manipulation of the electro magnetic domain, the Iranian seizure or at least compromise of that RQ-170 and Chinese interests in that realm I'm concerned that it will all end in disappointment.
Regardless congrats to Mr Mark and to a lesser extent Mark Mitchell before him for getting this through. Its at least something he can be proud of and I am guessing that the Greens either supported this or at least acquiesced which is encouraging/surprising.

 

[ngatimozart]

There are simulation & training missiles. UTM-84L's if they are going into the Harpoon camp or they may go for the JSM camp. The good news is 6 hours old so I can wait until it becomes clearer. Best of all they got the right platform for the next 35 years!

The Norwegians are acquiring 5 P-8A aircraft so I would think that they will integrate the JSM into it. Might be worthwhile for NZ and Australia to become part of that integration effort.

 

[ngatimozart]

Also NG have seen your comments in the MSM. Really well polished and so much more obviously informed than the average punter.
I am wary of Drone suggestion also. Given speculation regarding Russian jamming, spoofing and manipulation of the electro magnetic domain, the Iranian seizure or at least compromise of that RQ-170 and Chinese interests in that realm I'm concerned that it will all end in disappointment.
Regardless congrats to Mr Mark and to a lesser extent Mark Mitchell before him for getting this through. Its at least something he can be proud of and I am guessing that the Greens either supported this or at least acquiesced which is encouraging/surprising.

Thanks. There are some old 5 Sqn dudes on social media who flew on Sunderlands and P-3s that have trouble understanding the attributes of the P-8A. Sometimes I wonder if they think that we should reactivate the Sunderland at MOTAT in Auckland. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

[RegR]

In relation to potential P-8 weapon systems, the CDF, when interviewed by Newshub tonight said they "are keeping their options open, for a full range spectrum of military operations".

Considering that it's a Labour-NZF coalition govt that have made the bold steps of committing to the purchase of P-8's today, publicly criticised both China and Russian last Friday for undermining the "international rules-based order" (which has never happened before under any NZ govt in the last 20-30 years or so), are calling for greater US and Australian presence in the South Pacific, are investing in a new multi-billion dollar "Pacific Reset" diplomatic and foreign aid programme .... I doubt the govt will unnecessarily compromise any P-8 weapon systems. After all why compromise a quarter-of-a-billion dollar asset with "dumb" weapons that would put the aircraft in harms way etc?

Even the media are reporting the P-8's will re-locate to Ohakea so they can be "weaponised"!

Surely govt will take advantage of all the P8s range of abilities, including weapons delivery, otherwise it is a pretty gold plated SAR bus for the price and all the talking up they did to push it and its long list of attributes to the public. To sell the pacific reset to the likes of the US and Aus we need to be seen to be serious on the matter, P8 is a good step in that direction, a more robust attitude towards the combat side of it's capability is another including weapon systems, training with and maintaining upgrades as and when needed.

The move to Ohakea has more to do with the runway than weaponisation as even the P3s have to fly down, bomb up then fly back up to Kaipara to drop them as they are also not permitted to loadout in WH.

 

[RegR]

Yes very unlikely options will be even considered as they have already stated, as you point out, a need for a 'complimentary' platform.

The KA350 lease till 2025 fits perfectly with this in that they give the NZDF/RNZAF an opportunity to operate & understand what a light MPA/SAR platform offers & how it could be used. That doesn't mean it will become that 'complimentary' platform in 2025 once the P8 takes over - they are obviously also looking at remote systems as well. Although as a whole the NZDF does seem, to me, to be a little slow adopting these systems, they are now mature platforms in many allied forces.

Anyway for now it's status quo with the dear-old P3... I bet $$$ that the nominal P3 fleet drops to 4 by about 2022.

Yes the only way I can see us getting another P8 at this stage is as a replacement (god forbid) if we ever lost one, as surely 4 is bare minimum for what we do so would'nt want to get any lower. I think they will just put more of an effort into the complimentary option, a well equipped tier 2 geared more towards the humanitarian SAR side so that the P8s can better concentrate the high end stuff. Obviously the better specced they go for then the more slack that can be taken up from the P8 fleet so could range from a "proper" fitted with B350 to a C295 MPA to the dummed down boeing buisness jet version or even the fabled sea hawk at the top end (of the mid range that is) all with considerations such as range, load, features etc meaning they can patrol out further, stay up longer, locate things easier and assist accordingly, again relieving pressure off the small P8 fleet.

The tritons are another option but they cost about as much as a P8 so I guess the funding may not stretch far enough to get any decent numbers vs say a fleet of cheaper AC. Perhaps the UAV technology leap is abit too much of a step for us to consider or maybe just perceived to not offer enough options compared to manned systems at this stage?

Ha by 2022 we might still need all 6 P3s just to keep 2 in the air as I'm pretty sure at the moment we would be lucky to have 4 available at any one time as it is and if the hercs are anything to go by with their 50% fleet availability could be even worse. This proposed other option could do well to be introduced sooner rather than later just to compliment the P3s nevermind the P8s.

 

[hauritz]

In relation to potential P-8 weapon systems, the CDF, when interviewed by Newshub tonight said they "are keeping their options open, for a full range spectrum of military operations".

Considering that it's a Labour-NZF coalition govt that have made the bold steps of committing to the purchase of P-8's today, publicly criticised both China and Russian last Friday for undermining the "international rules-based order" (which has never happened before under any NZ govt in the last 20-30 years or so), are calling for greater US and Australian presence in the South Pacific, are investing in a new multi-billion dollar "Pacific Reset" diplomatic and foreign aid programme .... I doubt the govt will unnecessarily compromise any P-8 weapon systems. After all why compromise a quarter-of-a-billion dollar asset with "dumb" weapons that would put the aircraft in harms way etc?

Even the media are reporting the P-8's will re-locate to Ohakea so they can be "weaponised"!

The NZ government seems to be finally waking up to the fact that they are part of the South Pacific region and that their interests extend beyond their EEZ. That they are calling for a greater US and Australian presence in the region and chose the P-8 over less capable designs may indicate that they are willing to continue expanding their own military capabilities.

 

[Kiwigov]

The move to Ohakea has more to do with the runway than weaponisation as even the P3s have to fly down, bomb up then fly back up to Kaipara to drop them as they are also not permitted to loadout in WH.

Interesting aspect of the move to Ohakea (for 5 Squadron so far) is that it will reinforce the push for Whenuapai to be converted to housing, as was done for Hobsonville nearby (and Wigram in Christchurch). This move may prove attractive to aircrew, given the much lower cost of housing in the Manawatu - and Palmerston North offers job and educational opportunities for spouses and family. Not to mention a much simpler and shorter commute.
Broader issue for national airways policy is that a Whenupai conversion will entrench the dominance of Auckland airport, although there is probably little prospect of WH being used as any sort of national commuter airport.
I imagine any forthcoming 2020 announcement of a Hercules replacement will signal a move for those aircraft to Ohakea as well. Leaving 'just' the Seasprites at WH - and a possible purchase of facilities at Auckland Airport to relocate the squadron?

 

[Redlands18]

Interesting aspect of the move to Ohakea (for 5 Squadron so far) is that it will reinforce the push for Whenuapai to be converted to housing, as was done for Hobsonville nearby (and Wigram in Christchurch). This move may prove attractive to aircrew, given the much lower cost of housing in the Manawatu - and Palmerston North offers job and educational opportunities for spouses and family. Not to mention a much simpler and shorter commute.

Don't NZDF personnel get Subsidised Rental Housing like their ADF counterparts?

 

[Naive]

Unfortunatly the P8's could become "gold plated SAR buses", if the Greens have any say. Golriz Ghahraman has made the Green Party view public on this RNZ article: Greens urge govt to scrap plans for missiles, bombs

 

[ngatimozart]

Don't NZDF personnel get Subsidised Rental Housing like their ADF counterparts?

We used too. When I was in my weekly rent for a married quarter was about $10.00. I believe that now they charge market rents for what MQ's that are left.

 

[ngatimozart]

Unfortunatly the P8's could become "gold plated SAR buses", if the Greens have any say. Golriz Ghahraman has made the Green Party view public on this RNZ article: Greens urge govt to scrap plans for missiles, bombs

Yeah nah. She is entitled to her opinion. Since the Greens don't have many Cabinet Ministers, they don't have a chance with this idea. Talking of them I see Keith Locke was mouthing off about the P-8s yesterday and Russel Norman the other day. A waste of oxygen.

 

[Redlands18]

We used too. When I was in my weekly rent for a married quarter was about $10.00. I believe that now they charge market rents for what MQ's that are left.

In Australia we have a company called Defence Housing Australia which runs the MQs on behalf of the DOD. They lease the House off the owner for a period of about 7 years(always advertising on the Radio for Houses). The owner is guaranteed weekly rent irrespective of the House being occupied or not. Sounds like a great deal for the owner. Don't know what the members are paying these days(used to be well below Market value) but with the wide despertion of Military bases and the remotness of some Bases, it probably still is.

No one would pay $500 a week for a MQ at RAAF Tindal.

 

[MrConservative]

Unfortunately the P8's could become "gold plated SAR buses", if the Greens have any say. Golriz Ghahraman has made the Green Party view public on this RNZ article: Greens urge govt to scrap plans for missiles, bombs

Golriz Ghahraman will likely be a tiny irrelevant footnote in NZ political history by the time the P-8's arrive and her party is not looking to flash either.

 

[Gibbo]

Unfortunately the P8's could become "gold plated SAR buses", if the Greens have any say. Golriz Ghahraman has made the Green Party view public on this RNZ article: Greens urge govt to scrap plans for missiles, bombs

Golriz Ghahraman will likely be a tiny irrelevant footnote in NZ political history by the time the P-8's arrive and her party is not looking to flash either.

The thing with the Greens is they live in an ideal world... their heads in the clouds... but often those clouds look to be those of a certain 'weed' being smoked rather than the water-vapour kind P8's will be charging thru!

There's huge irony in their view of leading the world by effectively dis-arming... if they really think anyone is going to follow the lead of a small Sth Pacific nation they need to start reading history! There would be absolutely no takers for following anyone in that direction but they simply cannot grasp that!

The irony is the last 100 years saw much of the world in on-going conflicts, yes - using weapons, that by good luck as much as good management had the (largely) desired outcome for the likes of NZ. If those wars had gone the other way then the likes of the Greens would most likely not have even had the democratic right to freely make statements like they just have! They forget NZer's fought & died for the freedoms they now enjoy! And that's not jingoism... it's absolute fact!

Golriz Ghahraman is an interesting case-studio... I bear her no ill-will and I dare say she has experienced things we simply would struggle to comprehend (check her background as a refugee child out). To my mind I would've thought what she & her family went thru would enhance a desire to stand-up to tyranny!?! I guess it's a generational thing given she's more Kiwi than not now... wonder if her parents have/had a different take on it (with all due respect)!

The good thing in a way is that the P8 purchase was announced first as it was always going to be the more contentious of the FASC & FAMC projects, especially from a Greens / pacifism stand-point. The C130's are generally a universally loved & supported capability and in a NZ context at least won't carry any of the those nasty weapons! Even the Greens would begrudgingly admit they are an indispensable capability for HADR etc. The only concern would be numbers, yes and Grant Wobertson in the finance portfolio will be the concern.

 

[MrConservative]

In light of the frequent discussions referring to the FAMC here is a recent FMS contract announcement regarding the C-130J to Germany.

Germany – C-130J and KC-130J Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

WASHINGTON, May. 4, 2018 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Germany of three (3) C-130J-30 aircraft and three (3) KC-130J aircraft for an estimated cost of $1.40 billion.

That is about $2.05B in local coin. The package includes the kind of kit the RNZAF would be seeking including MX-20.

We would also require a strategic capability sort on top of this. The capability would seemingly be an in production operational MOTS airframe as per what was indicated in the Strategic Policy Statement. The days of doing a Kiwi bespoke are over. As we know there are not that many to pick from. If the P-1 was chopped from the FASC as been too unproven and too few in production and with a single operator, one could ascertain that those issues possibly do not assist the Kawasaki C-2. You are essentially left with the A400M (Which needs to still prove itself from what I guess is a fairly high bar, but has the advantage in that it can achieve all FAMC criteria), essentially leaving the B767-2C or a Boeing BCF or a A330 variant.

 

[ngatimozart]

The Orion fleet has had a name change. It is now known as the Airborne Surveillance and Response Force.

 

[Rob c]

The move by 5 sqn to Ohakea will lead to some gnashing of teeth by some of the personnel as to move an Aucklander south of the bombay hills is to move to the primitive, unrefined out backs. There was a lot of disquiet when Helen was going to close WH previously. They will be moving from a city of over 1.5 m to a place with the nearest town is Bulls (2K population) 3km away Marton (5K) 12 km away and Feilding (12k) 17 km away. The local papers indicated that the P3's may move here first, before the P8's arrive, this may only be a misreading of the situation, however it would make some sense to give a smooth transition to the P8. There will have to be a significant infrastructure spend up before that happens including married quarters as a significant number of then surplus married quarters where sold of a few years back. The next few years are going to be very interesting locally.
I wonder if 42 sqn could move to WH, It would mean splitting the training, but could give more timely local SAR in the Auckland and North regions. Obviously the P8's would deal with the long range stuff.

 

[ASSAIL]

The move by 5 sqn to Ohakea will lead to some gnashing of teeth by some of the personnel as to move an Aucklander south of the bombay hills is to move to the primitive, unrefined out backs. There was a lot of disquiet when Helen was going to close WH previously. They will be moving from a city of over 1.5 m to a place with the nearest town is Bulls (2K population) 3km away Marton (5K) 12 km away and Feilding (12k) 17 km away. The local papers indicated that the P3's may move here first, before the P8's arrive, this may only be a misreading of the situation, however it would make some sense to give a smooth transition to the P8. There will have to be a significant infrastructure spend up before that happens including married quarters as a significant number of then surplus married quarters where sold of a few years back. The next few years are going to be very interesting locally.
I wonder if 42 sqn could move to WH, It would mean splitting the training, but could give more timely local SAR in the Auckland and North regions. Obviously the P8's would deal with the long range stuff.

Poor dears! Move an hour or so South of Auckland.
Then give a thought to those poor RAAFy chappies who are moved to Katherine (Tindal) 333km South of Darwin and nearly 3,000kms from most of their families in the Southern capitals, their nearest town is Pine Creek pop 120.
Aaahh but that unlimited airspace and weapon ranges as far as the eye can see.