Royal New Zealand Air Force

[Gibbo]

Bit of a side issue...

One of the roles the B200 replacement is apparently expected to assist with is short-medium range inshore maritime patrol - releasing the P-3K fleet for tasks further afield.

However from reading the December issue of the RNZAF news magazine it would seem the P-3K fleet could acheive more. The magazine gives a round-up of the year's activity and states that this year 5 squadron's P-3K fleet (currently down to 5 with 1 in upgrade process) has acheived the following - 47 domestic EEZ patrols; 270 hours EEZ patrol for Sth pacific nations; 114 hrs in 5 SAR operations.

Now I know there's exercises & training to account for - and perhaps low manning levels - but isn't that a very low level of operations? To my unitiated eye that looks like a pathetically half-hearted commitment (I mean by Govt of course!) to patrolling the EEZ! Especially given that it is one of the world's largest!?!

Comments...!?!

 

[KH-12]

Yes New Zealands EEZ is the 7th largest in the world at a bit over 4 million sq km about half the size of Australia, would be interesting to know how many surveillance hours the Auusies put into their EEZ, you would have to roll in the Coastwatch time as well , although we probably don't have the same issues as the Nth coast of Australia. I understood that their was a serious problem with crewing the P3's.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Yes New Zealands EEZ is the 7th largest in the world at a bit over 4 million sq km about half the size of Australia, would be interesting to know how many surveillance hours the Auusies put into their EEZ, you would have to roll in the Coastwatch time as well , although we probably don't have the same issues as the Nth coast of Australia. I understood that their was a serious problem with crewing the P3's.

Without sounding like an old man who keeps repeating himself...: UAVs, get some Mariners in the air, base the pilots in Ponsonby between a Cafe and a Bar and they can fly the Mariners all over the Pacific (all over the world) and still make the bar each night!

 

[KH-12]

Without sounding like an old man who keeps repeating himself...: UAVs, get some Mariners in the air, base the pilots in Ponsonby between a Cafe and a Bar and they can fly the Mariners all over the Pacific (all over the world) and still make the bar each night!

Based on the proposed UAV HQ I would like to volunter my services to pilot one of the proposed platforms

I suspect that the NZDF is not even thinking of deploying UAV's at this juncture in the MSR, maybe when the P3's reach their end of service life :fly

 

[Whiskyjack]

Based on the proposed UAV HQ I would like to volunter my services to pilot one of the proposed platforms

I suspect that the NZDF is not even thinking of deploying UAV's at this juncture in the MSR, maybe when the P3's reach their end of service life :fly

IMHO that would be a mistake, given the cost of operation, our tech level, problems with recruitment and the cost, the NZDF would be best served looking into UAVs sooner rather than later.

 

[usakiwi]

Practicality of UAV in MRP Role?

Guys,

UAV’s for the RNZAF in the persistent maritime surveillance role does seem to be a no brainer and that the Mariner/Predator type airframe would be ideal. I have two questions though.

Firstly would the US export this technology to NZ? It seems at this stage the US only seems interested in exporting this technology to close allies (noting that due to the ANZUS row NZ is not an ally but simply a friend) and largely to support operations in Iraq. (The RAF Predator teams appear to be based in Nevada with the USAF crews and the Italian Predators are also in Iraq). Similarly I believe there are issues with the MTCR in that this class of UAV could be considered a long range (cruise) missile and thus banned for export.

Secondly. The area of ocean we are proposing to survey is literally the middle of nowhere. E.g. the EEZ East of the Chatam’s. Is there Ku band capacity available in this area to enable over the horizon operation? Additionally how expensive is this bandwidth?

I should also probably state for the record my preference for the RNZAF to operate a small mixed squadron of Mariner/Predator B types that could undertake:
• Long range maritime surveillance
• SAR (Need to develop the ability to airdrop raft/rescue supplies)
• Long range humanitarian assistance (Recon following hurricane/tsunami etc)
• Support of peacekeeping ops (I.e. support of former NZ Bat in Timor or other peacekeeping missions as standalone element)
• Covert surveillance (i.e. over Fiji at the moment)
• (Dare I say it) Long range persistent strike (Again in support of peace keeping ops, anti terror or simply as a rudimentary capability suitable for the Pacific theatre)

You are probably talking ~USD $100M capex for 6 Predator B and operating costs in the range of USD$6-10M/year depending on Ku band cost.

(A little off original topic and I apologize if this an inappropriate place)

 

[Whiskyjack]

Guys,

UAV’s for the RNZAF in the persistent maritime surveillance role does seem to be a no brainer and that the Mariner/Predator type airframe would be ideal. I have two questions though.

Firstly would the US export this technology to NZ? It seems at this stage the US only seems interested in exporting this technology to close allies (noting that due to the ANZUS row NZ is not an ally but simply a friend) and largely to support operations in Iraq. (The RAF Predator teams appear to be based in Nevada with the USAF crews and the Italian Predators are also in Iraq). Similarly I believe there are issues with the MTCR in that this class of UAV could be considered a long range (cruise) missile and thus banned for export.

Secondly. The area of ocean we are proposing to survey is literally the middle of nowhere. E.g. the EEZ East of the Chatam’s. Is there Ku band capacity available in this area to enable over the horizon operation? Additionally how expensive is this bandwidth?

I should also probably state for the record my preference for the RNZAF to operate a small mixed squadron of Mariner/Predator B types that could undertake:
• Long range maritime surveillance
• SAR (Need to develop the ability to airdrop raft/rescue supplies)
• Long range humanitarian assistance (Recon following hurricane/tsunami etc)
• Support of peacekeeping ops (I.e. support of former NZ Bat in Timor or other peacekeeping missions as standalone element)
• Covert surveillance (i.e. over Fiji at the moment)
• (Dare I say it) Long range persistent strike (Again in support of peace keeping ops, anti terror or simply as a rudimentary capability suitable for the Pacific theatre)

You are probably talking ~USD $100M capex for 6 Predator B and operating costs in the range of USD$6-10M/year depending on Ku band cost.

(A little off original topic and I apologize if this an inappropriate place)

I don't think that NZ would have any difficulty with buying the technology, as far as ally/friend goes, the Kiwi involvement in A-Stan and the willingness to take a greater role in the region (with full US backing) and recent comments on both sides suggest to me that the relationship is as good now as it was in the ANZUS days (give or take the need to show 'political' views to the respective publics)

Part of the LTDP talked of investing in Sat coms so I see no reason why Ku band will be an issue, also depending on what Australia goes with on the NWS, there may be a leverage benefit.

I had not heard of any limitations with international treaty and I assume the Aussies will be basing their UAVs from home so maybe NZ could work with that if there is an issue.

Completely agree with your taskings.

Cost of the Mariner variant is said to up around the US$25m mark.

As for being off topic, I don’t think we are actually that far off!

Cheers

 

[NZLAV]

RNZAF Orion P-3k

I was at the Whenuapai air show today, it was fantastic, and I had the chance to talk to some orion personal. According to one of the orion pilots, there is an 80% chance the Orions will be getting armed with an anti-ship missile. He said the missile will be a Harpoon or better. I asked him about an orion replacement and he in 2015 they will get P-8 Posidons or a new aircraft.

 

[Todjaeger]

Good to hear that the Kiwi Orions will get an AShM. I haven't liked the idea of them having Mavericks for an anti-shipping role. Mavericks are good for air-to-ground and with a nice warhead, but the range is definately short in terms of naval engagements. Not sure what would be better than a Harpoon Block II for mounting on an Orion. From just a NZ perspective, the NSM might make sense assuming the development work is done to integrate it on the Orion and Seasprite platforms. Does anyone know what the expected timeframe would be on the AShM capability for the P-3K if it happens?

-Cheers

 

[NZLAV]

Well it would have to be fitted afterthe upgrades. Probabably 2010+

 

[Turk]

NZ can upgrate their P-3C orions and they can buy P-8S NZ is island so they are good planes for the patrolling missions.

Mod edit: Turk, you don't seem to be getting the picture mate. I've been standing up for you but this is beginning to get ridiculous. I very much doubt ANYONE here isn't aware of the fact that NZ is a series of Islands. Start mosting more relevant and helpful posts or you won't be posting here too long. First warning.

AD.

 

[Magoo]

NZ can upgrate their P-3C orions and they can buy P-8S NZ is island so they are good planes for the patrolling missions.

Mods...PLEASE...!:unknown

Magoo

 

[Magoo]

Good to hear that the Kiwi Orions will get an AShM. I haven't liked the idea of them having Mavericks for an anti-shipping role. Mavericks are good for air-to-ground and with a nice warhead, but the range is definately short in terms of naval engagements. Not sure what would be better than a Harpoon Block II for mounting on an Orion. From just a NZ perspective, the NSM might make sense assuming the development work is done to integrate it on the Orion and Seasprite platforms. Does anyone know what the expected timeframe would be on the AShM capability for the P-3K if it happens?

-Cheers

Block II Harpoon could be problematic, as it requires a MIL-STD 1760 databus out on the wing hardpoints through which the target's GPS co-ordinates are downloaded, and for the Block II's datalink pod for mid course corrections. Block Is and IIs can be fired without 1760 if they're shot using only the radar seeker mode.

US Navy P-3C ICAP IIs carry and shoot the SLAM-ER which a winged version of the Harpoon with an EO/IR seeker and the same GPS/INS system as JDAM, good for land and maritime targets, but again, the wing would require a complete strip down and re-wiring with 1760s - a complex process.

LockMart offers a re-wing package for about US$15m a shipset which extends the life of a P-3 by about 15 years, however the NZ P-3s were re-winged in the late 90s with Korean licence-built wingsets, so this isn't an issue.

Maverick is a short range missile (<15km) and the P-3 is too valuable an asset to be put in harm's way with a Maverick, unless you're shooting Japanese whalers!

Cheers

Magoo

 

[Todjaeger]

Block II Harpoon could be problematic, as it requires a MIL-STD 1760 databus out on the wing hardpoints through which the target's GPS co-ordinates are downloaded, and for the Block II's datalink pod for mid course corrections. Block Is and IIs can be fired without 1760 if they're shot using only the radar seeker mode.

US Navy P-3C ICAP IIs carry and shoot the SLAM-ER which a winged version of the Harpoon with an EO/IR seeker and the same GPS/INS system as JDAM, good for land and maritime targets, but again, the wing would require a complete strip down and re-wiring with 1760s - a complex process.

LockMart offers a re-wing package for about US$15m a shipset which extends the life of a P-3 by about 15 years, however the NZ P-3s were re-winged in the late 90s with Korean licence-built wingsets, so this isn't an issue.

I remembered reading about a fairly recent Kiwi P-3K MLU. If I remember correctly, the current planned upgrade largely centres around the nav systems, correct? Out of curiousity, is the Harpoon Block I still in production? And if not, are there stocks available for purchase with sufficient "shelf-life" to be worth the RNZAF getting? Without having the P-3Ks re-wired for the new mil databus I mean. Also, what are other potential options for AShM that wouldn't require an upgraded databus but would still be viable in terms of service-life for missles? From what I remember, part of the reason the RAN started to switch to the Harpoon Block II is their old Block I missles were approaching end of service-life.

Maverick is a short range missile (<15km) and the P-3 is too valuable an asset to be put in harm's way with a Maverick, unless you're shooting Japanese whalers!

Cheers

Magoo

No, no, no... For shooting at Japanese whalers, you definately need to fire a Harpoon at them. Poetic justice and all that...

-Cheers

 

[RA1911]

From just a NZ perspective, the NSM might make sense assuming the development work is done to integrate it on the Orion and Seasprite platforms.

Considering the RnoAF are planning on keeping our Orions flying for quite some time, I'm pretty sure this will be looked at (if it hasn't been already). A 160km+ small and stealthy ASM should be quite handy for many countries with coastal areas.

 

[Todjaeger]

Considering the RnoAF are planning on keeping our Orions flying for quite some time, I'm pretty sure this will be looked at (if it hasn't been already). A 160km+ small and stealthy ASM should be quite handy for many countries with coastal areas.

Going OT a little bit... Is Norway planning on a NSM version to be carried by NH-90? With the RAN set to get NH-90s, and the RNZAF as well... There are additional potential customers. Also, any ideas on whether an upgrade (as mentioned by Magoo for Harpoon Block II) to the databus would be needed?

-Cheers

 

[Whiskyjack]

Going OT a little bit... Is Norway planning on a NSM version to be carried by NH-90? With the RAN set to get NH-90s, and the RNZAF as well... There are additional potential customers. Also, any ideas on whether an upgrade (as mentioned by Magoo for Harpoon Block II) to the databus would be needed?

-Cheers

I tend to agree with the NSM, as it can be launched from Helos, Seasprite and NH-90 (naval version), as well as the P3 and ships, which would allow for a common missile across the NZDF. It would also IMO suit the types of operations the NZDF is likely to undertake in the future.

However it depends on the timeframe, it may be that the NZDF wants a missile in service before the NSM is available. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Harpoon either.

 

[Tasman]

I tend to agree with the NSM, as it can be launched from Helos, Seasprite and NH-90 (naval version), as well as the P3 and ships, which would allow for a common missile across the NZDF. It would also IMO suit the types of operations the NZDF is likely to undertake in the future.

However it depends on the timeframe, it may be that the NZDF wants a missile in service before the NSM is available. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Harpoon either.

This could be the time for NZ to take the lead over Australia. The RAAF has dropped plans to equip its Orions to carry Harpoon and the RAN is likely to stick with Penguin as its helo operated AShM for some time (it still hasn't been able to deploy it because of the Seasprite problem). If NZ was to move to the NSM it may be that the RAN would follow at a later stage. It would seem a logical follow on to the Penguin and no doubt Australia would be pleased to see the Kiwis getting the missile operational on the NH90 as it would make it easier for the RAN to do the same when it was ready.

Cheers

 

[Whiskyjack]

This could be the time for NZ to take the lead over Australia. The RAAF has dropped plans to equip its Orions to carry Harpoon and the RAN is likely to stick with Penguin as its helo operated AShM for some time (it still hasn't been able to deploy it because of the Seasprite problem). If NZ was to move to the NSM it may be that the RAN would follow at a later stage. It would seem a logical follow on to the Penguin and no doubt Australia would be pleased to see the Kiwis getting the missile operational on the NH90 as it would make it easier for the RAN to do the same when it was ready.

Cheers

Agree it would nice to see the NZDF field this missile.

However a few points:

· As far as I can see the NSM is not in service as yet and I can find no info on when IOC will be
· With this in mind the NZDF usually goes for proven OTS tech.
· The cost of integrating the NSM into the ANZAC/Seasprite/P3 may be cost prohibitive
· The NH-90 in NZDF service will be the Utility version not the Naval, given that the Seasprite still has another 18 odd years of service I can't see the NH-90 Naval coming into NZDF service anytime soon.
The specs, weight/length of the NSM seem the same as the Penguin si I am only assuming that the Seasprite will be capable of carrying the NSM.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

snip. I asked him about an orion replacement and he in 2015 they will get P-8 Posidons or a new aircraft.

I agree with the former, I think its just a matter of what is most cost effective. But to say NZ will get P8's? I am not sure the Gentleman in question is too up with the play on how politics work, so dont beleive that untill you see it flying in NZ colours.