Royal New Zealand Air Force

[Aussie Digger]

you would hope so i wouldnt want to be a soldier jumping out of a chopper in hostile territory without at least some covering fire. Just a point of interest i heard from a Navy weapons engineer that the Airforce and Navy are gonna start putting snipers in the back of the helicopters for increased cover dont know how effective that would be but its something.

It works very well. US Delta pioneered the concept (AFAIK) and have used it extensively, even as far back as Somalia. (The Blackhawk Down incident shows a perfect example of this).

Australia also used it extensively in East Timor during Interfet as a "light" fire support and recon asset, with SASR/4RAR Commando and eventually "regular" Snipers operating from Blackhawks. The acquisition of the "rapid-fire" SR-25 7.62mm Sniper Rifle by Australia's special forces, I'd imagine was partly inspired by this tactic. A rapid by but "accurate" weapon, is (I can only imagine) perfect for this role.

In relation to the NH-90's, The mockup I saw at the Avalon Airshow in 2005, was equipped with MAG-58, flex mounted GPMG's, in the "loadmasters" window, situated directly behind the main door of the helicopter. This is an excellent capability, as it doesn't impede the access fot the troops embarking and disembarking from the helicopter.

There are no pics available yet, but Australia has fitted 7.62mm "mini-guns" to the Chinooks we have sent to Afghanistan and Navy has a project to fit a 12.7mm machine gun to it's Seahawk helicopters, as they seem to think the 7.62mm GPMG is a bit "light on" for this role.

My pick for a weapon would be the M3M 12.7mm GPMG seen here:

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_50cal-M3M_MG.htm

I hope ADF picks this up and makes it there "standard" helo door mounted weapon...

 

[Gibbo]

The current Huey's the RNZAF operate have 2x M60 machine guns and have trained-proffesional door gunners. The Hueys are being replaced in 2010 by 8 NH90's and 6+ Light helicopters. Will the new NH90's be armed with M60's or similar. It would take a RNZAF engineer 10 minutes to weld up a mount. I would love to see the NH90's with an MG so that they can cover dismounting soliders. Will the new NH90's be armed with an MG?

Purely an operational issue for RNZAF - only they'll be able to answer that. Given however that the NH-90 will perform the same role as the Hueys I'd be very surprised if they didn't carry MG's. Perhaps they'll move away from the M-60 currently used to either a 50 cal HMG or mini-gun....but it's speculation.

I'd like to see attack weapons on the pylons - but fat chance of that for NZ! I'm still thinking that the RNZAF has specified the T\LUH requiremenst such that it can pave the way to providing a future light armed-recon (ARH) role - with additional airframes req'd to do so of course!

I'm also curious as to why the Min of Defence has stated the RNZAF NH-90's will be french built & arriving in 2010 when the Aussies are building them just across the ditch & will be arriving next year!?!...what's the thinking there I wonder! God knows we need to get those hueys retired ASAP!

With regard to snipers on choppers - USCG & RN have both recently used just that to take out the outboards on drug-runners - one certain way to stop a 'go-fast', as shots across the bows won't stop these idiots! Are we talking RNZN to do this???

 

[Whiskyjack]

Purely an operational issue for RNZAF - only they'll be able to answer that. Given however that the NH-90 will perform the same role as the Hueys I'd be very surprised if they didn't carry MG's. Perhaps they'll move away from the M-60 currently used to either a 50 cal HMG or mini-gun....but it's speculation.

Look to the ADF for this I think, what they use we will probably use as well IMO.

 

[stryker NZ]

With regard to snipers on choppers - USCG & RN have both recently used just that to take out the outboards on drug-runners - one certain way to stop a 'go-fast', as shots across the bows won't stop these idiots! Are we talking RNZN to do this???

i think so i was speaking to the head weapons engineer at Devenport Naval base and any way i saw this one decent size sniper rifle on the workbench and i asked him what it was for and he said the airforce and navy were trialing them on the hueys and seasprites.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Purely an operational issue for RNZAF - only they'll be able to answer that. Given however that the NH-90 will perform the same role as the Hueys I'd be very surprised if they didn't carry MG's. Perhaps they'll move away from the M-60 currently used to either a 50 cal HMG or mini-gun....but it's speculation.

I'd like to see attack weapons on the pylons - but fat chance of that for NZ! I'm still thinking that the RNZAF has specified the T\LUH requiremenst such that it can pave the way to providing a future light armed-recon (ARH) role - with additional airframes req'd to do so of course!

I'm also curious as to why the Min of Defence has stated the RNZAF NH-90's will be french built & arriving in 2010 when the Aussies are building them just across the ditch & will be arriving next year!?!...what's the thinking there I wonder! God knows we need to get those hueys retired ASAP!

With regard to snipers on choppers - USCG & RN have both recently used just that to take out the outboards on drug-runners - one certain way to stop a 'go-fast', as shots across the bows won't stop these idiots! Are we talking RNZN to do this???

Because we ordered our first batch of NH-90's (12x) nearly 2 years ago...

 

[Lucasnz]

1 NZ NH90 purchased for Parts

In the Dominion Press this Morning
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/dominionpost/0,2106,3876173a6000,00.html

This really takes the cake...

New helicopter bought for parts
24 November 2006
By HANK SCHOUTEN

The Defence Ministry has confirmed it will spend $80 million on a new NH90 military helicopter - then strip it to provide spare parts.


The ministry had announced plans to buy eight of the French-built choppers.

It decided to buy a ninth because it worked out about $10 million cheaper than buying the equivalent number of spare parts.

Helicopter project director Kevin McMahon told Parliament's foreign affairs and defence select committee yesterday that buying a ninth chopper was similar to insurance companies buying cars and stripping them for parts because it was cheaper than buying parts separately.

The extra helicopter would also allow the Air Force to acquire a spare air frame and other parts which it would not otherwise buy as spares.

Mr McMahon said the price New Zealand was paying for each of its helicopters was comparable to that being paid by Australia for its 46 NH90s, though the contracts were configured differently.

Australia had not gone for a fixed-price contract, whereas the New Zealand Government had insisted on it and paid a premium for it.

AdvertisementAdvertisementNew Zealand had also had to pay the cost of its risk-averse foreign exchange hedging policy.

Defence Ministry acting secretary Chris Seed was asked by National MP Murray McCully to explain how the helicopter replacement project, initially estimated to cost $400 million to $560 million, had ended up costing $900 million.

Mr Seed said the estimate was made more than four years ago after consulting manufacturers of military helicopters but the NH90 was not in production then.

The increase in the helicopters' price reflected advances in technology, military inflation and the small number of manufacturers operating in the sector.

The ministry was now modifying its process for calculating estimates.

Mr Seed added that New Zealand decided to have its NH90s built by Eurocopter in France, rather than assembled in Brisbane, because they could be more certain about price and delivery times.

Getting capable helicopters that were similar to Australia's new military helicopters was more important than where they were being built, Mr Seed said.

 

[Imshi-Yallah]

I think that at the very least the M60s will be retained, because as you said the mounts won't cost much in the context of the outlay for an NH90 and it will allow the RNZAF to maintain it's door gunner expertise which otherwise would go on the list of things that blokes would have to be trained up on if something kicked off.

I presume the NH90s are intended to deploy regionally at least? If the UH-1Ds could be used extensively in Timor then surely the NH90 with modern maintenance standards should be at least as deployable.

In the meantime the Irish Aircorps has bought pilot combat body armour and survival /load carrying vests for the crews of helicopters that will probably spent 60% of their time carrying members of cabinet to supermarket openings in their constituencies and never be deployed outside of our airspace.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I think that at the very least the M60s will be retained, because as you said the mounts won't cost much in the context of the outlay for an NH90 and it will allow the RNZAF to maintain it's door gunner expertise which otherwise would go on the list of things that blokes would have to be trained up on if something kicked off.

I presume the NH90s are intended to deploy regionally at least? If the UH-1Ds could be used extensively in Timor then surely the NH90 with modern maintenance standards should be at least as deployable.

In the meantime the Irish Aircorps has bought pilot combat body armour and survival /load carrying vests for the crews of helicopters that will probably spent 60% of their time carrying members of cabinet to supermarket openings in their constituencies and never be deployed outside of our airspace.

The new MRV HMNZS Canterbury has the ability to carry 4 NH90s and 1 Seasprite (as well as 250 troops and their equipment. So the Plan is to have 50% of the NH90s as deployable, which will give approximately twice the lift as the 6 UH-1Hs that were deployed to East Timor. I would also expect that the deployed NH90s would have 90% availability given the amount of effort that goes into this area on new equipment no days.

On top of that the LUHs will take on local SAR and counter terrorist roles when they enter service later this decade.s

 

[Imshi-Yallah]

Thats a pretty decent capability you'll have going there.

Thus far there has been no mention of an airwing operating from the equivalent planned Irish vessel, although it does appear that the primary task of MRZ patrolling will lead to a preference for a much more limited Army support role.

 

[NZLAV]

Replacement for RNZAF Beech King Air B200

Hi all,
It is said that a short-medium patrol aircraft will be purchased to replace the king airs soon. Whataircraft will be purchased? I think the RNZAF has gone under quite a bit of modernisation.
C-130 upgrade
Orion upgrade and possible armament
757's purchased
NH90 helicopter
A new LUH purchase underway (hopefully armed)

All I think is missing now is some light jets. That would be a great purchase.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Hi all,
It is said that a short-medium patrol aircraft will be purchased to replace the king airs soon. Whataircraft will be purchased? I think the RNZAF has gone under quite a bit of modernisation.
C-130 upgrade
Orion upgrade and possible armament
757's purchased
NH90 helicopter
A new LUH purchase underway (hopefully armed)

All I think is missing now is some light jets. That would be a great purchase.

King Air 350's possibly? That's what the Australian Army operates...

 

[EnigmaNZ]

I read a few months ago that the Indonesian Casa 235 MPA can be had for $US10 mil per unit, maybe a better bet than the King Air, 4 a/c could take on the EEZ leaving the Orions to the deep south, pacific and overseas deployment.

 

[Gibbo]

Pacific Wings magazine had a small news snippet a few months back that stated the Govt was 'looking at' getting 4-6 Bombardier Q200 for transport; training; SAR and short-range maritime patrol. It also went so far as stating the maintenance was likely to be outsourced to AirNZ subsidary Air nelson who have a new fleet of Q300.

At the time this report was out of the blue, but with LTDP update project to now replace Beech B200's it all makes sense. I think we'll find the Q200 was a 'possible option' rather than a 'probable option' - as an RFP is expected later this year - or at least in the near future!

The Beech B200's are leased of course - apparently that is still the preferred option for thier replacement. Why not - leasing has actually worked well for the RNZAF, and hasn't restricted their use.

I suspect the plan is to look for a larger a/c such as the Q200 as there is a yawning gap in transport capacity within the RNZAF (& not just for VIPs). The Q200 would be more than capable of internal personnel transfers (SATS) and lighter Sth Pacific tasks (requires staging but similar to what the Andovers did). No it's not a true military airlifter, but it would free up the C-130's & B757's.

I guess we'll have to keep guessing until we see the RFP (if publicly listed as T/LUH one was) - I do hope they go for the larger a/c - and the Q200 is a damned fine a/c. Given the additional roles I'd suggest a minm of one for one replacement (5x) - although I'd prefer the suggested 6x.

Hi all,
It is said that a short-medium patrol aircraft will be purchased to replace the king airs soon. Whataircraft will be purchased? I think the RNZAF has gone under quite a bit of modernisation.
C-130 upgrade
Orion upgrade and possible armament
757's purchased
NH90 helicopter
A new LUH purchase underway (hopefully armed)

All I think is missing now is some light jets. That would be a great purchase.

With regard to 'RNZAF has gone under quite a bit of modernisation' - yes, but sadly it also lacks in key areas...

C-130 - no self-defence systems yet confirmed (although in scope). Still insist fleet size (5x) is too small.

P-3K - no self-defence systems yet confirmed (although in scope). No upgrade of anti-sub systems a definite negative. Still waiting for weapons fit!

B757 - god I love these a/c! I'd still like to see a self-defence systems. Remember that Fedex freighter that lost an engine to a shoulder fired SAM!?! (landed safely!) If the civvies were operating there I'd imagine the RNZAF B757 wouldv'e been allowed in too!...far too ugly to think of the possible consequences!

LUH - not enough of them, especially if a light ARH role is ever anticipated.

Still, plenty of excititng stuff happening, good time to be joining RNZAF!

 

[LancerMc]

I think a King Air 350 would be a logical choice. Won't need to change training much, nor support costs. Many military forces now use it as an aircraft to monitor land and sea areas. The US is ordering a bunch of the new Iraqi Airforce.

If they want an aircraft that is more duel use, get an CN-295. They are a succesful patrol aircraft and can be utilised as a light transport.

 

[KH-12]

What about something like the C-27J , this would give a very good cargo capacity to complement the C-130's in say the Pacific region , it has a pretty good range for its size and would fit into the mix as a modern day Andover replacement. With the C-130 fleet at only 4 A/C for the next few years any assistance in this area would be great and would free them up for the longer haul missions.

 

[Gibbo]

What about something like the C-27J , this would give a very good cargo capacity to complement the C-130's in say the Pacific region , it has a pretty good range for its size and would fit into the mix as a modern day Andover replacement. With the C-130 fleet at only 4 A/C for the next few years any assistance in this area would be great and would free them up for the longer haul missions.

I so totally agree that the RNZAF really should get something like the C27J or C295, but I understand the govt is thinking of an a/c type same or similar to a type currently in civilian service in NZ as they intend to outsource maintenance. Air Nelson would easily be able to handle this work.

The govt want to (surprise, surprise...not!) keep the cost down and civvy turbo-props are relatively cheap & easy to purchase off the shelf - certainly more so that any similarly sized military spec a/c.

In effect they intend to retain the current scenario used with the Beech B200's of civvy owned & maintained. I could see there may be complications with a civvy operator trying to purchase a military spec a/c for leasing.

Yes I agree none of the above rules out something like a C27J or C295 fleet owned by RNZAF & civvy maintained - but the govt will only ever spend the 'bare minimum'.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I so totally agree that the RNZAF really should get something like the C27J or C295, but I understand the govt is thinking of an a/c type same or similar to a type currently in civilian service in NZ as they intend to outsource maintenance. Air Nelson would easily be able to handle this work.

The govt want to (surprise, surprise...not!) keep the cost down and civvy turbo-props are relatively cheap & easy to purchase off the shelf - certainly more so that any similarly sized military spec a/c.

In effect they intend to retain the current scenario used with the Beech B200's of civvy owned & maintained. I could see there may be complications with a civvy operator trying to purchase a military spec a/c for leasing.

Yes I agree none of the above rules out something like a C27J or C295 fleet owned by RNZAF & civvy maintained - but the govt will only ever spend the 'bare minimum'.

Perhaps a military version of the Civilian DASH-8 aircraft? As seen here:

(http://www.lastrefuge.co.uk/davidhalford/images_big/DH-CC-142-01.jpg)

Canada used them for years and they are a very cheap aircraft to run with good cruising speeds (370 knots) excellent STOL performance and good passenger capacity (65-70 persons depending on configuration).

They are also maritime patrol capable and are used by Australian Customs in this role, picture available here:

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/images/060704_CW10.jpg

 

[LancerMc]

The USAF also uses DASH-8's as an communication relay aircraft for the QF-4 program at Eglin AFB.

 

[Gibbo]

Perhaps a military version of the Civilian DASH-8 aircraft? As seen here:

(http://www.lastrefuge.co.uk/davidhalford/images_big/DH-CC-142-01.jpg)

Canada used them for years and they are a very cheap aircraft to run with good cruising speeds (370 knots) excellent STOL performance and good passenger capacity (65-70 persons depending on configuration).

They are also maritime patrol capable and are used by Australian Customs in this role, picture available here:

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/images/060704_CW10.jpg

Yeah the Dash-8 series are a mighty fine a/c - I'd be very happy indeed to see the RNZAF get a fleet of these. Bombardier do offer a multi-mission version which basically is a standard airframe tailored to whatever role the customer requires. They'd almost certainly receive military spec comm's.

I believe they do offer a quick-change freight / pax combo which would be ideal for RNZAF - although I can't see govt splashing out on FLIR & surface-search radar as per Aussie CoastWatch a/c. They have a fairly impressive top speed too - Q200 is one of the fastest twin-turbos in it's class.

http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?id=3_0&lang=en&file=/en/3_0/3_0.jsp

 

[Sea Toby]

I agree, New Zealand should look at multi-role aircraft, ships, and vehicles whenever possible to fulfill its many equipment purchases or leases. Flexibility is definitely a plus.