Royal New Zealand Air Force

[Gibbo]

There has been talk of 6 aircraft being proposed for this role, most people are assuming it will be either the A109 or EC135, although I think that these aircraft will be very busy given the hourly operating cost of the NH90, can't imagine you would need more than a couple of airframes for the "training role" per se. Looks like 9 NH90 have been ordered rather than 8 as well. I think the real intention is to use them to complement the NH90 in operational tasks that don't require that size of aircraft , calling them training aircraft sounds like a bit of a rouse.

Hey firstly it's fantastic to see the RNZAF finally getting a decent piece of true military kit

With regard to the LUH - the word on the street seems to be 6 is the number, but I've seen absolutely nothing anywhere official that indicates what types are shortvlisted - EC635 would be my 'dream machine' but it's all spec for now. Anyone with an ear truly close to the ground heard what shortlisted?

Okay so here's my pick (he says as he reaches for the crystal ball)... as Defence Minister states "operational funding will be tight..." which means in a few years we'll find we have 'em but can't afford to fly 'em - so takes arm-twisting from Aussie before we dust 'em off for E. Timor or whereever.

They find that the 6 LUH purchased were simply too few and are working damned hard to keep up with op demands. New Govt then decides it needs more of the cheaper LUH & suddenly we're faced with an excellent opportunity to go for an armed LUH/LOH chopper based on LUH design (EC635 - grunt, grunt!)! Finally the NZ Army get the air cover they've been needing in the field! Oh well, dreams are free!

I know when they first started looking at Sioux replacement the plan was for a civvy operator to maintain (& own?) the fleet - like the 42Sqn B200 fleet, that was unlikely to be overseas deployable. The requirements have obviously changed but will the new LUH be overseas deployable!?! Wherever you take an NH-90 you'll need a LUH for the smaller tasks so let's hope.

Hey here's a thought - it's been clearly stated that NH-90 will be 'stowed on the vehicle deck' of the MRV - how on earth do they intend to roll them on/off with the ramp angles that they'll have to contend with - I guess on the back of a flat deck truck!?! Imagine trying to unload them if they need to use the LCM's - would you dip an NH-90 toes in salt water??? The 'hatches' in the MRV deck do not constitute a lift as I understand it nor are they likely to be used to lift an NH-90 up to the flight deck. Oh so many questions....damn 0 I can't wait till 2010 to see these babies arrive!!!

 

[stray_kiwi]

Hey firstly it's fantastic to see the RNZAF finally getting a decent piece of true military kit

Well, I guess you could qualify that by saying that by saying its been a long time coming. When the RNZAF got the A4's in 1971 they were a massive upgrade from the vampires and canberra's and certainly qualified as "a decent piece of true military kit".

If you extend the same projection to the current situation the NH90 will be asked to serve NZ's needs for at least 40 years and probably a lot longer. That is what worries me.

 

[Mr Brown]

I bet that the ill informed media is going to have a field day with the possibility of the NH-90 and LUH contracts costs exceeding $1bn. They never seem to understand that introducing new equipment costs more than buying more examples of equipment already in service, there are training costs, spares and logistics costs. But then again if the current govt hadn't taken so long to make a decision we could have bought them when the Kiwi was stronger against the Euro.

Hopefully the current 9 NH-90s and rumoured 6 LUHs may represent an initial order, with possibility of more in future once the new machines are integrated into service.

 

[Gibbo]

Well, I guess you could qualify that by saying that by saying its been a long time coming. When the RNZAF got the A4's in 1971 they were a massive upgrade from the vampires and canberra's and certainly qualified as "a decent piece of true military kit".

If you extend the same projection to the current situation the NH90 will be asked to serve NZ's needs for at least 40 years and probably a lot longer. That is what worries me.

Yep absolutely agree - it's been far too long coming! The RNZAF damn well deserve a decent chopper after all the mess the Govt's over the last 15-20 years have made! Yeah I'm concerned with the expectation that these babies will last 30-40 years - the only reason the Hueys lastest so long was they have no modern electronics & basic airframe! I'd give the NH-90 20 years before they've slogged the guts out of them (they'll be like our C-130's - highest houred in the world due to the small fleet size).

 

[KH-12]

Yep absolutely agree - it's been far too long coming! The RNZAF damn well deserve a decent chopper after all the mess the Govt's over the last 15-20 years have made! Yeah I'm concerned with the expectation that these babies will last 30-40 years - the only reason the Hueys lastest so long was they have no modern electronics & basic airframe! I'd give the NH-90 20 years before they've slogged the guts out of them (they'll be like our C-130's - highest houred in the world due to the small fleet size).

I think with the long development cycles in todays aircraft there is an expectation that equipment will last for a reasonable period of time as long as they can still do the job required of them, look at the B52 for example or the KC-135's. With the composite airframe the fatigue life should be less of an issue and as long as avionics etc can be upgraded then I don't see why they should'nt enjoy a service life comparable to the UH-1H. With the high operating costs of the NH90 versus the UH-1H I would hope that the LUH will take some of the load with regard to those tasks that don't require the big beast. I would'nt like to be the first pilot to put a dent in one

 

[KH-12]

Hey firstly it's fantastic to see the RNZAF finally getting a decent piece of true military kit

With regard to the LUH - the word on the street seems to be 6 is the number, but I've seen absolutely nothing anywhere official that indicates what types are shortvlisted - EC635 would be my 'dream machine' but it's all spec for now. Anyone with an ear truly close to the ground heard what shortlisted?

Okay so here's my pick (he says as he reaches for the crystal ball)... as Defence Minister states "operational funding will be tight..." which means in a few years we'll find we have 'em but can't afford to fly 'em - so takes arm-twisting from Aussie before we dust 'em off for E. Timor or whereever.

They find that the 6 LUH purchased were simply too few and are working damned hard to keep up with op demands. New Govt then decides it needs more of the cheaper LUH & suddenly we're faced with an excellent opportunity to go for an armed LUH/LOH chopper based on LUH design (EC635 - grunt, grunt!)! Finally the NZ Army get the air cover they've been needing in the field! Oh well, dreams are free!

I know when they first started looking at Sioux replacement the plan was for a civvy operator to maintain (& own?) the fleet - like the 42Sqn B200 fleet, that was unlikely to be overseas deployable. The requirements have obviously changed but will the new LUH be overseas deployable!?! Wherever you take an NH-90 you'll need a LUH for the smaller tasks so let's hope.

Hey here's a thought - it's been clearly stated that NH-90 will be 'stowed on the vehicle deck' of the MRV - how on earth do they intend to roll them on/off with the ramp angles that they'll have to contend with - I guess on the back of a flat deck truck!?! Imagine trying to unload them if they need to use the LCM's - would you dip an NH-90 toes in salt water??? The 'hatches' in the MRV deck do not constitute a lift as I understand it nor are they likely to be used to lift an NH-90 up to the flight deck. Oh so many questions....damn 0 I can't wait till 2010 to see these babies arrive!!!

I think someone has mentioned that the MRV has an absolutely massive hangar immediately in front of the flight deck where the 4 NH90 and 1 Seasprite can be stowed, its abit like a tardis , small entrance way and big inside , so you just roll them out onto the flight deck to launch.

 

[stray_kiwi]

I think with the long development cycles in todays aircraft there is an expectation that equipment will last for a reasonable period of time as long as they can still do the job required of them, look at the B52 for example or the KC-135's. With the composite airframe the fatigue life should be less of an issue and as long as avionics etc can be upgraded then I don't see why they should'nt enjoy a service life comparable to the UH-1H.

One of the great things about metal is that the fatigue rate is generally consistent across all stressed parts. The same is not necessarily true for composite construction. Thats not to say the airframes won't last as long as the UH-1H, some might well last a lot longer. Its just that we may find drastically different fatigue rates in different airframes.

 

[Gibbo]

I think someone has mentioned that the MRV has an absolutely massive hangar immediately in front of the flight deck where the 4 NH90 and 1 Seasprite can be stowed, its abit like a tardis , small entrance way and big inside , so you just roll them out onto the flight deck to launch.

Can't find the link at the moment but there is a definite 'official' reference somewhere that the 4 x NH-90 are on the vehicle deck but in an area designated as 'aviation space'. There's a number of excellent photos around the www now of the MRV on sea trials & shots of the stern & superstructure seem to clearly show the hangar is limited in size. An email from Tenix in response to this question 18 months ago stated the hangar can store 2 x SeaSprites & NH-90 are 'down below'. Sea Toby states same in the 'Project Protector' thread...anyhow I'm getting off topic now!

Go the NH-90 - now let's just see what LUH is served up.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Can't find the link at the moment but there is a definite 'official' reference somewhere that the 4 x NH-90 are on the vehicle deck but in an area designated as 'aviation space'. There's a number of excellent photos around the www now of the MRV on sea trials & shots of the stern & superstructure seem to clearly show the hangar is limited in size. An email from Tenix in response to this question 18 months ago stated the hangar can store 2 x SeaSprites & NH-90 are 'down below'. Sea Toby states same in the 'Project Protector' thread...anyhow I'm getting off topic now!

Go the NH-90 - now let's just see what LUH is served up.

My understanding is that the NH90s are located on the same level as the Seasprite and access the flight deck through the Seasprite hanger. I guess that the deck could also ve used for vehicles if the NH90s were not being carried, hence the confusion?

 

[KH-12]

One of the great things about metal is that the fatigue rate is generally consistent across all stressed parts. The same is not necessarily true for composite construction. Thats not to say the airframes won't last as long as the UH-1H, some might well last a lot longer. Its just that we may find drastically different fatigue rates in different airframes.

My understanding of composite structures (CRP / GRP / Kevlar) is that they are fine up until the point when their structural limit is reached at which point there will be a catastrophic failure, so they don't have a fatigue life as such, flying a composite aircraft on a regular basis this is always on my mind when performing high G manuovres or flying in strong turbulance

 

[Sea Toby]

As I recall, there is information from both Tennix and the government that the hangar on the MRV and OPVs are the same as what is on the Anzacs. One helicopter can be stored in this hangar. However, I have read that there is space for the NH90s separate from the other vehicles. Whether it is on the vehicle deck are in front of the hangar is unknown. From the pictures available on the world wide web, the smokestack is besides the hangar, with the landing boats and cranes on each side of the hangar and smokestack. There could possibly be storage space in front of the hangar, but that space could be used for the berthing. I have asked for someone to scan and upload the deck plans for the MRV for clearification.

On the civilian sister ferries of the MRV, vehicles are stowed on the 3rd and 5th decks. Its very possible the NH90s could be stowed on the 5th deck in front of the hangar. I wish Tennix or the navy released deck plans, if that's too much of a secret, I wish either would release a cut-a-way view of the interior of the MRV. Since the helicopters are rated as 10 ton helicopters, I believe the 60 ton cranes can easily lift them through the hatches from the vehicle deck (3rd) to the helicopter deck (5th).

 

[stryker NZ]

ive seen the plans for the MRV the choppers arnt stored on the vehicle deck. on the plans they were stored directly in front of the hanger in a large storage area that pretty much stretches all the way to the front of the vessel.

p.s the plans are not on the internet i saw them at the naval base in Devenport

 

[KH-12]

ive seen the plans for the MRV the choppers arnt stored on the vehicle deck. on the plans they were stored directly in front of the hanger in a large storage area that pretty much stretches all the way to the front of the vessel.

p.s the plans are not on the internet i saw them at the naval base in Devenport

So if the Sprite is in the Hangar you would have to move it to the back of the flight deck then bring each of the NH90 out in sequence through the Sprite Hangar and fly them off the forward landing spot.

 

[Sea Toby]

Or all of the aircraft would take off one at a time as they are readied on the flight deck aft, including the Seasprite. Yes, the MRV is going to be a special vessel, useful throughout the South Pacific region. From patrol duties in the Southern Ocean to disaster relief operations worldwide. While she is not the largest amphibious ship around, she can move 250 men, their equipment and supplies, as well as any other MRV.

 

[stryker NZ]

So if the Sprite is in the Hangar you would have to move it to the back of the flight deck then bring each of the NH90 out in sequence through the Sprite Hangar and fly them off the forward landing spot.

exactly theres a door that seperates the hanger and the NH-90 storage area and to get them out they go through the hanger

 

[Sea Toby]

I can't wait for the SeaSprite and the Huey helicopters operate off the MRV. We'll see that show before the NH90s arrive. Since the Hueys are smaller, I wonder whether they can squeeze another one or two onboard? But that show won't be the same show when the NH90s arrive.

I can't wait to see pictures of the Canterbury filled up with Army equipment on the vehicle deck either. I would pay for a DVD seeing the Army drive on and off the ramps! What an interesting hour that would be.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I can't wait for the SeaSprite and the Huey helicopters operate off the MRV. We'll see that show before the NH90s arrive. Since the Hueys are smaller, I wonder whether they can squeeze another one or two onboard? But that show won't be the same show when the NH90s arrive.

I can't wait to see pictures of the Canterbury filled up with Army equipment on the vehicle deck either. I would pay for a DVD seeing the Army drive on and off the ramps! What an interesting hour that would be.

Thats a good point Sea Toby, my guess is that 6 Huey's would fit into the space of 4 NH90s. It is actually possible that ADF NH90s might fly off the Canterbury before NZDF NH90s do!

 

[KH-12]

Thats a good point Sea Toby, my guess is that 6 Huey's would fit into the space of 4 NH90s. It is actually possible that ADF NH90s might fly off the Canterbury before NZDF NH90s do!

I see Australia is scheduled to receive their first aircraft in 2007, seems a shame we have to wait until 2010, hopefully the LUH is onboard a bit sooner, the A109 would be quite a nice choice, its speed would match that of the NH90 more closely than the EC135, if employed in a light escort role

 

[Markus40]

Im pretty sceptical guys about the NZ Huey operating off a MRV prior to the NH90s coming into service. Unless of course they were stored and flew to a LZ or base elsewhere for operations. The reason being is that the Huey have a skid landing, and in a rough sea state might cause considerable damage to the deck of the MRV and the Huey(s). I really dont think this would be practable. Especially if they had to be tied down to the deck.

 

[Sea Toby]

The US Navy operates Hueys on its LHDs and LHAs. Simply add 4 wheels and 2 axles to the bottom skids, and the helicopters can be rolled around. I believe Bell and Augusta offers a kit. Its not expensive.

I found this diagram of a sister civilian ferry at the Bornholm ferries web site of the Hammerodde. While its not an exact diagram of the Canterbury, it does shine some light where the NH90 helicopter space is.

In my eyes there appears to be enough space for helicopter storage just forward of the hangar, amidships and aft of the central lift on the fifth deck. The hangar on the Canterbury is the funnel area. Whether there is a lift on the MRV I haven't a clue.

http://www.bornholmferries.dk/skibene/ho/92we.aspx?_m=6