If they want to be able to deploy 4, then they will need 8. I think all this dancing around the numbers is more to do with negotiation. Let NHI think that you may have to go with less and get a better price for 8.KH-12 said:
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
- Start date
Whiskyjack said:
We just got access back for our butter exports so maybe NHI got the price they were after
(Interesting that Phil Goff is also trade minister )I wonder if the RNZAF propose to conduct ab initio helicopter training on the new LUH or if they subcontract that phase out to a civilian R22 operator, would probably be a cheaper option, then transition to the 2 engine LUH post solo.
With NZ, they don't have a big enough budget for any form of cost blowout, where as Aus and many Euro countries can afford it and to have it fixed so other purchasers know what they are getting into.stryker NZ said:
Look at how we always manage to cop some form of blowout, if NZ got this much, they'd just submit to buying a few dinghys :sniper with a machine gun as its navy and a bird with a pistol as its Air force. :hul
For some reason, the western world will continue to never buy a russian anything, i think caviar and Vodka even come from Poland. With the russians, besides reliability and lack of spare parts, theres that whole East Vs West thing still goin.
I dont think Phil Goff would be shooting his mouth off when he does say in the " National Business Review" that the Defense Forces will get their 8 NH90s as specified. I think he means what he says and i wouldnt doubt him.
8 is operating at the very minimum levels for our service requirements and i would assume in years to come that there might be a few more purchased either off Australia or directly out of the long term Defense budget over the next 10 years. Will see.
I personally think the government has a good deal and a good helo as a result and will cover all our requirements in the forces. The extra $200 Million for parts and the fall in the NZ Dollar is fact of life and really to be honest for the length of time the government has had out of the Iroqouis and the years they operated them beyond their useful life extension, im sure the extra will make up for when the Iroqouis should have been replaced many years ago.
8 is operating at the very minimum levels for our service requirements and i would assume in years to come that there might be a few more purchased either off Australia or directly out of the long term Defense budget over the next 10 years. Will see.
I personally think the government has a good deal and a good helo as a result and will cover all our requirements in the forces. The extra $200 Million for parts and the fall in the NZ Dollar is fact of life and really to be honest for the length of time the government has had out of the Iroqouis and the years they operated them beyond their useful life extension, im sure the extra will make up for when the Iroqouis should have been replaced many years ago.
I agree 8 could be seen as a number that may not stretch RNZAF personnel resources regarding the introduction of a helicopter that is rather more sophisticated than the one it is replacing. More could then be purchased in the medium term. Any way I would have thought NZ may look at a LUH that can perform all of the domestic civil assistance roles of UH-1H, plus training and even a little spec force support. This would allow NH-90 to be used for overseas ops.
Its my opinion the only add on expensive NH90 helicopters will be replacement helicopters for those that have been lost. More than likely any future orders for add on helicopters beyond replacement helicopters may be more EC-135 utility or EC-635 gunships, helicopters that costs significantly less. Of course, this depends whether our assumptions are correct that the EC-135 training helicopters are the ones currently being acquired.
Looking ahead, the next biggest expense item on the LTDP will be the Anzac class frigate upgrades, an expense a few years off. New Zealand should have a period of up to ten years before replacements for the Orions and Hercules will have to be ordered, which will be more expensive than this helicopter order. It would be wise for the New Zealand Defence Forces to spread out their equipment acquisitions, so they don't become obsolescent all at the same time.
Looking ahead, the next biggest expense item on the LTDP will be the Anzac class frigate upgrades, an expense a few years off. New Zealand should have a period of up to ten years before replacements for the Orions and Hercules will have to be ordered, which will be more expensive than this helicopter order. It would be wise for the New Zealand Defence Forces to spread out their equipment acquisitions, so they don't become obsolescent all at the same time.
Well NZ pretty much replaced their army all at once:
105 NZLAV's IFV/APC
321 LOV's
24 Javelin anti armour
next the artillary and troop transport will be replaced.
7 new ships have been ordered in a small space of time. The frigates, orions and the hercs will probably be replaced together. I would say NZ will get 6-8 A400m's and 6-8 long range patrol. The RNZAF will be so much more capable when they replace the orions and hercs.
105 NZLAV's IFV/APC
321 LOV's
24 Javelin anti armour
next the artillary and troop transport will be replaced.
7 new ships have been ordered in a small space of time. The frigates, orions and the hercs will probably be replaced together. I would say NZ will get 6-8 A400m's and 6-8 long range patrol. The RNZAF will be so much more capable when they replace the orions and hercs.
While I'm not an expert, the 135 is much smaller than the NH90, so should be capable of transportation in a Herc. I would imagine the mil version, the 635, would have to be transportable. The dimensions look about right for a C-13o, although I think some disassembly of the rotor head would be needed.NZLAV said:
The Oriions and the Hercs, won't be replaced before 2018-2020, and will be a serious issue for the RNZAF as they will need to be replaced around the same time. IMO don't look for more than 3-4 P8s (if at all) they will be very expensive. Maybe some manned and some unmanned patrol aircraft.
I agree the A400 would be ideal as a replacement. Given that to get anywhere is a major logistical exercise for NZ, the more recourses here the better.
I guess with a P8 you would hope that the sensors( AN/APS-137B(V)5) are a whole lot better than the P3 so that you can cover a much larger area of ocean more quickly, although the electro-optical systems are probably not that much more advanced than the latest P3K update. The radar should be a reasonable step-up from the Israeli Elta system going in the P3K's.Whiskyjack said:
I would imagine that 4 P8's will cost around the 1 Billion dollar mark depending on systems config, luckily the airframe is a known commodity and there are some economies of scale already there.
I would imagine that the the Orions will be used at least until 2020 with the last aircraft from the latest update not coming online until 2010, likewise with the C-130 program. Would'nt be surprised if 2025 was a more realistic replacement date, by which time the airframes will be 60 years old
The P8 will have a better availability, based on a commercial design and will fly much higher generally as well, less chance of corrosion damage.KH-12 said:I guess with a P8 you would hope that the sensors( AN/APS-137B(V)5) are a whole lot better than the P3 so that you can cover a much larger area of ocean more quickly, although the electro-optical systems are probably not that much more advanced than the latest P3K update. The radar should be a reasonable step-up from the Israeli Elta system going in the P3K's.
I would imagine that 4 P8's will cost around the 1 Billion dollar mark depending on systems config, luckily the airframe is a known commodity and there are some economies of scale already there.
I would imagine that the the Orions will be used at least until 2020 with the last aircraft from the latest update not coming online until 2010, likewise with the C-130 program. Would'nt be surprised if 2025 was a more realistic replacement date, by which time the airframes will be 60 years old
You have to remember that by 2020 UAVs will be plugged into the operational grid of most western forces so not unrealistic for the NZDF.
I think we a wondering off topic tho.
:And by 2020-2025 the Hercules will cost as much as the P-8, the above figure for both in American dollars, not New Zealand dollars. Possibly another $4 billion in New Zealand dollars. I wouldn't even be surprised if Lockheed lenghtened and widened the aircraft by then, with a new C-140A aircraft.
Since the Anzacs were commissioned at the end of the past century, I suspect they should live until 2030-2035. By that time to replace them with the same warships Australia will acquire, it wouldn't surprise me they would cost a billion dollars each in New Zealand dollars.
Of course, this is really looking into a crystal ball. I wonder whether the New Zealand defence force spending will reflect the same percentage of GDP.
Since the Anzacs were commissioned at the end of the past century, I suspect they should live until 2030-2035. By that time to replace them with the same warships Australia will acquire, it wouldn't surprise me they would cost a billion dollars each in New Zealand dollars.
Of course, this is really looking into a crystal ball. I wonder whether the New Zealand defence force spending will reflect the same percentage of GDP.
stray_kiwi
New Member
The subcontracting scenario sounds like the most feasible (read: cheapest) idea. There are a couple of helicopter flight schools in the lower NI area that could handle the teaching load easily.KH-12 said:
Has there been any further developments on the LUH purchase? I can't find anything anywhere.
stray_kiwi
New Member
I think that could be a problem. The way the RNZAF use the Orion for S&R they require a low speed, low to medium altitude, high loiter time aircraft. I doubt that turbofans are the way to go to if they want to maintain the flexibility of turboprops.Whiskyjack said:
Sorry to wander OT but I wanted to give my 5c before they get taken out of circulation
There has been talk of 6 aircraft being proposed for this role, most people are assuming it will be either the A109 or EC135, although I think that these aircraft will be very busy given the hourly operating cost of the NH90, can't imagine you would need more than a couple of airframes for the "training role" per se. Looks like 9 NH90 have been ordered rather than 8 as well. I think the real intention is to use them to complement the NH90 in operational tasks that don't require that size of aircraft , calling them training aircraft sounds like a bit of a rouse.stray_kiwi said:
Can anyone give me a straight answer as to why we couldnt purchase the LUH helo and operate them under a civil contractor? IE The Police Department. Instead of the Defence Forces. The LUH purchase would appear in my opinion to be irrelevant to the overall Defence Forces procurement programmes due to the non military nature of its intended operations, other than training.
It can be used for the Military if needed immediatly, but in the normal day to day training and light ops, why it couldnt operate within the Police Departments jurisdiction.
It can be used for the Military if needed immediatly, but in the normal day to day training and light ops, why it couldnt operate within the Police Departments jurisdiction.
I believe that it will have a military role, in the early days the Sqioux was employed in an observation role by the Army but was abandoned as attrition took hold there is no reason why the the new aircraft could'nt fill this role also, I can also see a role for the LUH in co-operation with the SAS, alot of the training will also be advanced tactical operations such as low flying / Formation flying, probably NV also, not something you would nessessarily want to subcontract outside the Air Force, it is certainly not a core mission for the Police.Markus40 said:
I believe that ab initio helicopter training should be contracted out to a civilian training organisation as operating costs should be cheaper, this will free up the LUH for advanced training and associated military / civil defence / SAR duties.
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Military doctrine and police doctrine are two different beasts, always have been and always will be. I am sure the air force does not wish to confuse its new pilots with civilian rules of engagement, and want no part of civilian training. I would rather have the Australian military train New Zealand pilots than use civilian instructors. Yes, the pilots will learn their flying skills, but the doctrine will be out of whack.
The air force will use the LUHs in operations besides training anyway, whenever the usage of a NH90 will be overkill. For example, you wouldn't use a truck to move a portable TV, you would use the back seat of a car. Then again, if the car is too small for your big screen TV, you'll use a truck.
The air force will use the LUHs in operations besides training anyway, whenever the usage of a NH90 will be overkill. For example, you wouldn't use a truck to move a portable TV, you would use the back seat of a car. Then again, if the car is too small for your big screen TV, you'll use a truck.
stray_kiwi
New Member
The RAF subcontract out their ab inito flight training to civilian commercial flying schools. I would assume that the flight syllabus could be tailored for the military, but as for the doctrine problem, I guess the RAF have a solution. Sorry, but as a civilian I don't really have a decent understanding of this issue.Sea Toby said:
Yes it is a reasonable thing to do , these pilots will have already done alot of hours in CT4E's and King Airs within the RNZAF flying training process, doctrine would not have a lot to do with just getting to grips with flying a rotary winged aircraft, the advanced training yes, the ab initio helicopter not really, its not like you are going to teach formation or tactical flying in the first 50hrs or so.stray_kiwi said: