Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[Novascotiaboy]

John Fedup have you glanced at the RAN thread. Not only were they ordered long after our JSS but a complete ship is in the water as Nuship Supply launched by Navantia.

How embarrassing for our RCN that the RN and the RAN get their replacement AORs long before we do. At this rate HMNZS Aeoteroa will be delivered too.

 

[hauritz]

John Fedup have you glanced at the RAN thread. Not only were they ordered long after our JSS but a complete ship is in the water as Nuship Supply launched by Navantia.

How embarrassing for our RCN that the RN and the RAN get their replacement AORs long before we do. At this rate HMNZS Aeoteroa will be delivered too.

I have noticed that with Canada. There always seems to be an inordinate delay from the time a ship is ordered through to when construction actually starts.

Canada announced the winner of its tanker competition back in 2013. It appears that in the 5 years since then the biggest achievement was to change the name of the class from the Queenston class to the Protecteur class. Further progress was made in 2017 when the two ships were subsequently renamed from Queenston and Chateauguay to Protecteur and Preserver. I don't know how many committees were involved in making that decision but it is in keeping with the glacial nature of the program that it took several years from when they changed the name of the class until the decision was made to rename the ships.

In the meantime the ships they were intended to replace have been withdrawn from service and container ship has been converted to fill the gap until the new ships are built.

While all this is happening there is probably some committee somewhere deciding whether or they should have one or two soft serve ice cream machines installed in the ship's mess.

 

[ngatimozart]

John Fedup have you glanced at the RAN thread. Not only were they ordered long after our JSS but a complete ship is in the water as Nuship Supply launched by Navantia.

How embarrassing for our RCN that the RN and the RAN get their replacement AORs long before we do. At this rate HMNZS Aeoteroa will be delivered too.

Aotearoa to be delivered January 2020, so about 14 months away.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Ngati you are spot on. We won’t even see what looks like a hull by that time. Just a bunch of metal blocks sitting on the beach.

Day in day out the twat that runs this country is driving us further and further into the lew with no regard for reality.

We have a 54 year old research ship, CCGS Hudson, yet again being refitted because it keeps people working. New ship is years away as well. Political interference and incompetence personified.

 

[ngatimozart]

Ngati you are spot on. We won’t even see what looks like a hull by that time. Just a bunch of metal blocks sitting on the beach.

Day in day out the twat that runs this country is driving us further and further into the lew with no regard for reality.

We have a 54 year old research ship, CCGS Hudson, yet again being refitted because it keeps people working. New ship is years away as well. Political interference and incompetence personified.

It's not just the current govt but the ones that have preceded as well that have stuffed up Canadian defence procurement. The current naval situation is just symptomatic of a long history of highly inadequate and very unprofessional procurement practices from both pollies and bureaucrats. Sometimes I also wonder what are the actual non public connections between the domestic ship builders, pollies and bureaucrats within Canada. Just what is the level of transparency?

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Ngati the level of transparency is about as clear as a sheet of 1” steel plate.

Irving was paid millions of $$$$$ to shutter its massive dry dock in Saint John New Brunswick after the Halifax class were completed. It is now the site of a gypsum wallboard plant with the dry dock left to history.

The Halifax shipyard was bought by the Irving’s and became their primary yard after closing Saint John and East Isle in Prince Edward Island. Irving sold off its last submersible drydock to Eastern Shipbuilding in Florida and forced the Nova Scotia government to underwrite the costs of repairing the ship lift at Shelburne Ship repair.

Davie has been a mess for years but as we see with Asterix has come a long way and this innovative approach at quickly supplying the RCN with a viable AOR has shown its ability.

Sea pan is an American owned company, Washington Marine Group, and their operations are divided between Victoria and Vancouver. Their operations at Victoria mirror Babcocks at Devonport.

Irving is a company with operations in forestry, shipbuilding, oil refining, retail distribution of fuels and general merchandise plus all the supporting businesses for a vertically integrated conglomerate. The founder of Irving was KC. It is his sons who run things today. Saint John New Brunswick is the location of most of their big businesses including Canada’s largest oil refinery, pulp and paper mills, wall board, plus lots of other stuff.

Just review the current court proceedings involving Admiral Norman and the actions of Irving and elected officials to see what we deal with here.

 

[John Fedup]

@Novascotiaboy ...I have made numerous comments about our non-combat ship programs. SeaSpan and now Davie are corporate welfare companies which have been awarded business solely for political benefits. The extra costs and delays hurt the RCN which will never be compensated. Davie has converted an existing ship into an AOR and the new superstructure was fabricated in Finland. I am certain they would mirror SeaSpan’s performance if they starting a build from scratch. Your comments about Irving are right on but they were the only choice for combat ships which, IMO, should be built in Canada despite the higher costs. Still think the RCN would have been better off with 12 Astutes and scrap the AORs and frigates. Add 6-12 OPVs and call it a day. Too late now.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

I do not disagree that a fleet of SSNs would be the proper way to protect the interests of Canada but the political will would never be there. The money is available just look how Junior spends it like water falling over Niagara Falls.

But besides the beauracratic meddling we know that the senior naval staff has mixed feelings toward what is the way forward for the RCN. We need a naval CDS such as Mark Norman to rally the needed support for a proper navy. Someone who has the vision to see and impliment a balanced force.

I also agree with the need for OPVs other than the AOPS. The Vard 85m similar to the RNZN Otago and Wellington but with the ability to carry a marinized Bell 429. I strongly believe we need a utility helicopter to support naval operations alongside the Cyclones. These would primarily embark aboard the Dewolfes and the new OPVs. The only difference that I woukd make to the Vard product is the mounting of a recycled 57mm Bofors bow gun and two 25 mm Mk 38 either side.

I also see the need for three dedicated logistic support ships. Not full on over the beach amphibious ships but a multi role non combatant such as the Point Class that support the RN. These vessels should be built with helicopter aviation capabilities and at least 2000 lane metres for the roro transport of the army. One primary for each coast and a third to provide maintenance relief.

I also think we should acquire CB90 boats for use by the naval reserve across the country and aboard the AORs and the logistic ships. These could be built at smaller yards across the country.

This isnt difficult ..it takes vision and a strong will.

 

[ngatimozart]

Ngati the level of transparency is about as clear as a sheet of 1” steel plate.

Irving was paid millions of $$$$$ to shutter its massive dry dock in Saint John New Brunswick after the Halifax class were completed. It is now the site of a gypsum wallboard plant with the dry dock left to history.

The Halifax shipyard was bought by the Irving’s and became their primary yard after closing Saint John and East Isle in Prince Edward Island. Irving sold off its last submersible drydock to Eastern Shipbuilding in Florida and forced the Nova Scotia government to underwrite the costs of repairing the ship lift at Shelburne Ship repair.

Davie has been a mess for years but as we see with Asterix has come a long way and this innovative approach at quickly supplying the RCN with a viable AOR has shown its ability.

Sea pan is an American owned company, Washington Marine Group, and their operations are divided between Victoria and Vancouver. Their operations at Victoria mirror Babcocks at Devonport.

Irving is a company with operations in forestry, shipbuilding, oil refining, retail distribution of fuels and general merchandise plus all the supporting businesses for a vertically integrated conglomerate. The founder of Irving was KC. It is his sons who run things today. Saint John New Brunswick is the location of most of their big businesses including Canada’s largest oil refinery, pulp and paper mills, wall board, plus lots of other stuff.

Just review the current court proceedings involving Admiral Norman and the actions of Irving and elected officials to see what we deal with here.

Thanks Nova. Much appreciated.

 

[ngatimozart]

@Novascotiaboy ...I have made numerous comments about our non-combat ship programs. SeaSpan and now Davie are corporate welfare companies which have been awarded business solely for political benefits. The extra costs and delays hurt the RCN which will never be compensated. Davie has converted an existing ship into an AOR and the new superstructure was fabricated in Finland. I am certain they would mirror SeaSpan’s performance if they starting a build from scratch. Your comments about Irving are right on but they were the only choice for combat ships which, IMO, should be built in Canada despite the higher costs. Still think the RCN would have been better off with 12 Astutes and scrap the AORs and frigates. Add 6-12 OPVs and call it a day. Too late now.

Aaah but while subs can do many mysterious and wonderful things, they can't do lot of things that FFGs can so would be a case to cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's all about a balanced force structure and as we all know that is something as foreign to pollies as is the surface of Alpha Centauri to you or I.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Ngati I still would want the fifteen surface combatants plus the dozen SSNs the half dozen AOPS and the dozen OPVs plus three ROROs. But a 46 ship navy for Canada isnt going to happen in my lifetime unless the brown matter hits the propeller.

 

[John Fedup]

Even if it did, a 46 ship navy will never happen. The pollies would be too busy with making sure the surrender terms were in French and English. After all, in a few years we will be bankrupt.

 

[John Fedup]

Well it seems junior’s government has been able to extend the Victoria class operational life to meet their budget timelines. As usual, just making shit up on the fly.

Canadian Forces says submarines can operate until mid-2020s – but still no details on how fleet will be upgraded

 

[John Fedup]

More bad news for the CSC program. I can a 10 million dollar payment for Alion to piss off in order to get things moving.

Ottawa ordered to 'postpone' frigate design decision amid investigation | CBC News

 

[hauritz]

More bad news for the CSC program. I can a 10 million dollar payment for Alion to piss off in order to get things moving.

Ottawa ordered to 'postpone' frigate design decision amid investigation | CBC News

They do have a point in that the Liberal Government did specify that it wanted to go with a proven warship design. This once again confirms that they really have no idea what they actually want.

They could face the same problem with the fighter replacement program after the Liberals pronounced with equal certainty that they wouldn't buy the F-35 but would instead buy one of the many cheaper options that were available.

The plan for building new replenishment ships is already a mess and they sound even more clueless about what they will do when it comes to replacing the Victoria class submarines.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the decision making processes used by the Canadian Government ... at least in regards to defence.

 

[John Fedup]

Sadly, it is not only defence nor is government incompetence unique to the federal government. Their provincial counterparts are just as bad.

 

[John Fedup]

Another example of BS journalism. Although the article eventually briefly mentions the T26 and T45 have different propulsion systems the headline infers otherwise. The T45 propulsion problem, a WR21 design issue, has hopefully been addressed. IEP got a blackeye because of the WR21 recuperation design but the QE and Zumwalt classes have confirmed IEP as the way for the future, at least for larger vessels.

‘Near total power failure’: Questions about propulsion system on new Canadian warship

 

[ASSAIL]

It seems that the case against Vice Admiral Norman gets weaker as time passes.
He has always argued that the Cabinet info re Asterix was common widely known and he did not leak priveledged information.
An investigation simply supports his statements.

The Mark Norman files – the official list of those who knew about discussions on supply ship project, according to PCO investigation

 

[John Fedup]

The Norman case, along with pipeline screw ups, could end up being junior's biggest obstacles to re-election next year. These issues, unlike the CSC and fighter procurement failures, seem to have traction with the electorate.

 

[Black Jack Shellac]

The Norman case, along with pipeline screw ups, could end up being junior's biggest obstacles to re-election next year. These issues, unlike the CSC and fighter procurement failures, seem to have traction with the electorate.

Another note on the Norman Case



hopefully this link works