Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

spoz

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting teminology, the description is of what would be called in Australia System Design Review.
 
Black Jack Shellac

Black Jack Shellac

Active Member
Sender said:
Per the following link, the Canadian Surface Combatant to complete PDR shortly. This is fantastic news, and shows the program is gaining speed.

breakingdefense.com

Canadian Surface Combatant ship to see design review within weeks: Lockheed Martin - Breaking Defense

The CSC will replace Canada's Iroquois-class destroyers and the Halifax-class frigates.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
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Odd comment I see in this article was the suggestion that Ottawa requested BMD!?!. That would be news if true, as our government has repeatedly stated that we were not going to join BMD - this would be a complete 180. It was actually a huge political football around 10 years ago, so I am surprised to see this and I doubt it is true. I think what was requested was AEGIS, and BMD capability just happens to come along for the ride.

Odd, I have to edit this already as the article seems to have change the text. Here is a second article that states the BMD request:

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/10/21/canadas-multibillion-dollar-combat-ship-plan-nears-key-decision/
 
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John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Recent events may have changed the government’s view on BMD. BMD on a ship is less controversial than a land based system. Ship based first then maybe limited land based BMD second.
 
Black Jack Shellac

Black Jack Shellac

Active Member
John Fedup said:
Recent events may have changed the government’s view on BMD. BMD on a ship is less controversial than a land based system. Ship based first then maybe limited land based BMD second.
Click to expand...
Maybe, but this decision must have been made years ago, before the recent activity in Ukraine. Perhaps the RCN was requesting to be capable to do this just in case Canada went that route and sold it to the govt as just AEGIS. I doubt too many of the MPs would even understand what they were signing up for, and the ones that did, probably wouldn't talk.

Nod, nod, wink, wink, say no more, say no more.
 
StingrayOZ

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
BMD seems to mean many things to many different people.

If the RCN is planning on SM-6 or even the latest SM-2 then there is some BMD capability. That isn't surprising, you would hope that the latest US air defence missile could take down a scud or similar following a dumb, obvious ballistic missile path. Heck you could even argue that Phalanx can defend you against ballistic threats like mortars, shells and some low cost rockets.

That is quite different to having SM-3 and a networked aegis fleet intercepting a space based threat or mid course BM, and that is different again to have a multi-layered land and sea and spaced based system, utilising a range of missiles to provide a defence against ICBMs and significantly reducing the effectiveness of a sides nuclear MAD capability.

Obviously that is a bit more sensitive, and the Europeans generally worry about upsetting the Russians. But that changed I think after Russia's actions in 2015.. NATO then had a plan for BMD.
1666566182269.png

German Navy to Modernize its F124 Sachsen-class Frigates with New Radar to Join NATO BMD

German Navy to Modernize its F124 Sachsen-class Frigates with New Radar to Join NATO BMD
www.navyrecognition.com www.navyrecognition.com

SM-6 BMD isn't that amazing, its terminal defence, and would be a last ditched effort suitable for something like a fleet in blue water operations. Its very good for an anti-air missile, but its not going to take out mid-course ICBM's, or even terminally intercept nuclear hypersonic MIRV from a nuclear strike unless its coming right for the ship and even then... It won't be taking out those in boosting phase unless the Canadian ship is located ~10 km off shore from Russia/North Korea...

The Germans and the Spanish (and the Dutch) are meant to upgrade their ships to become BMD compatible. But I am not sure where that project currently sits. It seems the Spanish are preparing to adopt newer flavours of aegis and retrofit that into their ships. The French and the UK also have some BMD capability in some of their missiles, but integration seems a long way off, so other than tactical defence of a fleet unit, it still seems a long way off.

Canada with Aegis (CMS330 +) and SM-6 could certainly contribute to a NATO BMD capability, its baked into those systems. Either sharing sensor data, or offering SM-6 missile fires.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
"The French and the UK also have some BMD capability "
And the Italians. The French & Italians introduced it in their land-based SAMP/T first, & it's being extended to ships, starting with the RN I think. Only capable of intercepting SRBMs originally but extended with the Block 1NT missile.
 
S

Sender

Member
John Fedup said:
Recent events may have changed the government’s view on BMD. BMD on a ship is less controversial than a land based system. Ship based first then maybe limited land based BMD second.
Click to expand...
Definitely on the "radar" for this government:

www.politico.com

Canada taking ‘comprehensive look’ at joining U.S. ballistic missile defense

Anita Anand: “We are leaving no stone unturned in this major review of continental defense.”
www.politico.com www.politico.com

www.ctvnews.ca

Canada considering actively defending against intercontinental ballistic missiles: Anand

Defence Minister Anita Anand says the federal government is weighing whether Canada should join the U.S. in actively defending against intercontinental ballistic missiles.
www.ctvnews.ca www.ctvnews.ca
 
K

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
StingrayOZ said:
The Germans and the Spanish (and the Dutch) are meant to upgrade their ships to become BMD compatible. But I am not sure where that project currently sits.
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Germany signed a contract for four new radars for F124 for Stage 1 of this last year. Delivery is planned for 2023 for a land-based calibration and training radar facility and during MLUs between 2024 and 2028 for the three ship-based radars. Stage 2 - BMD software for the CMS - hasn't been tendered out yet. The upgrade is not meant to give F124 full BMD capability (in particular not a full sensor-to-shooter chain), but to update its sensor capabilities to cover low-earth orbit and act as a precursor to the planned F127 BMD/AAW frigates to be built as their successors in the mid 2030s.
 
M

Meriv

New Member
swerve said:
"The French and the UK also have some BMD capability "
And the Italians. The French & Italians introduced it in their land-based SAMP/T first, & it's being extended to ships, starting with the RN I think. Only capable of intercepting SRBMs originally but extended with the Block 1NT missile.
Click to expand...
Exactly, plus it is reason why we aren't joining the German BMD shield (14 EU countries) since we already got our program.
But it is OT.
 
S

Sender

Member
I don't think there is a Canadian Coast Guard thread, but if I missed it, my apologies. In any case, here is the latest on the Polar Icebreaker:

www.seaspan.com

Polar Progress: Find out what’s happening behind the scenes in the development of Canada’s new Polar Icebreaker - Seaspan

January 31, 2023 It has been nearly 60 years since a Polar Icebreaker was built in Canada and the industry has come a long way since then. Under the National Shipbuilding Strategy, Seaspan is designing and building a new Polar Icebreaker for the Canadian Coast Guard. It will be one of the...
www.seaspan.com www.seaspan.com
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Sender said:
I don't think there is a Canadian Coast Guard thread, but if I missed it, my apologies. In any case, here is the latest on the Polar Icebreaker:

www.seaspan.com

Polar Progress: Find out what’s happening behind the scenes in the development of Canada’s new Polar Icebreaker - Seaspan

January 31, 2023 It has been nearly 60 years since a Polar Icebreaker was built in Canada and the industry has come a long way since then. Under the National Shipbuilding Strategy, Seaspan is designing and building a new Polar Icebreaker for the Canadian Coast Guard. It will be one of the...
www.seaspan.com www.seaspan.com
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SeaSpan spin. Let’s see how the JSS turns out. Last time I heard the idiots in Ottawa were proposing a second icebreaker to be built in Quebec( big surprise :mad:). The only positive is the endless delays make specifications for the icebreakers less demanding as the Arctic could be ice free by the time these ships enter the water!
 
S

Sender

Member
Davie is now "officially" part of the NSS (see link below), and negotiations have begun for one of the two planned Polar Icebreakers (see thread 3277 above), and six Program Icebreakers. So, if all plans come to fruition, between Seaspan and Davie, the following icebreaking vessels will join the fleet in the next 20 years:
  • Two (2) Polar Class (one built by Davie, and one by Seaspan)
  • Six (6) Program Class (all built by Davie)
  • 15 (15) Multi-purpose Vessels (all built by Seaspan)
  • Presumably the three (3) Interim icebrakers, which were extensively upgraded from 2018-22, will also be in the fleet for another 20 years or so.

Program icebreaker details: Program Icebreakers

Multi-purpose Vessel details: Multi-Purpose Vessels - Seaspan
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Sender said:
Davie is now "officially" part of the NSS (see link below), and negotiations have begun for one of the two planned Polar Icebreakers (see thread 3277 above), and six Program Icebreakers. So, if all plans come to fruition, between Seaspan and Davie, the following icebreaking vessels will join the fleet in the next 20 years:
  • Two (2) Polar Class (one built by Davie, and one by Seaspan)
  • Six (6) Program Class (all built by Davie)
  • 15 (15) Multi-purpose Vessels (all built by Seaspan)
  • Presumably the three (3) Interim icebrakers, which were extensively upgraded from 2018-22, will also be in the fleet for another 20 years or so.

Program icebreaker details: Program Icebreakers

Multi-purpose Vessel details: Multi-Purpose Vessels - Seaspan
Click to expand...
Probably makes more sense to have Davie build both “heavies” and add a third JSS for SeaSpan or something comparable size wise (amphibious vessel perhaps?)
 
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