Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

SpazSinbad

Active Member
Oz Supers came as a sudden 'bridge the gap' when F-111s retired early. Then argy-bargy about whether to modify some to become 'Growlers', then decision to buy brand new EA-18Gs instead. RAAF became so enamoured of this NEW capability with the NGJ on the horizon that they will help bring that capability, being in lockstep with the USN in this regard. There is speculation that NGJ Next Gen Jammer will also be fitted to the F-35 but not confirmed AFAIK. Australia does not operate F-22s or the other youbeaut USAF aircraft, even classing the Growler as a 'support' aircraft AFAIK. Our RAAF have figured out what they want in PROJECT JERICHO, with the EA-18Gs (now only eleven) being useful because we are not USAF. We may well see the Growlers retired some time after Shornets have gone elsewhere - in the meantime we learn Electronic Attack in ways that no other country except US can match, a capability the RAAF have not had before.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #982
Lots of life left in the Typhoon. Upgrades to radar and EW are in the works, CFTs are planned (which, according to Wikkipedia, increase the combat radius to 1500nm, which would be class leading, and perfect for the interceptor role). Aerodynamic enhancements are said to improve agility and maneuverability. The engines were reputed to have a design margin of 30%, and could be equipped with Thrust Vectoring Nozzles.

This could also give Canada a doorway into the development of the Franco/German New Generation Fighter.

Eurofighter Typhoon - Wikipedia
Wikipedia and Typhoon hype don’t work for me. All these improvements you mention assuming the partners agree on them will be extremely expensive add-ons on an already expensive platform. AESA is relatively new for this platform, a feature US jets have had for sometime now. That speaks volumes about the Typhoon development pace. Maneuverability will mean squat as missile technology improves and moves into hyper velocity ranges, especially for non stealth jets. Concerning the future Euro fighter, how much workshare is realistic for a junior partner like Canada compared to France and Germany? Just look at the infighting between major Euro partners on several Airbus programs. All the advantages are with F-35 except for the ego of our analtard PM junior.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #983
I really don't understand the Australian model, frankly. Isn't the SH/Growler platform redundant now that F35 is coming in to the fleet?
As I understand it, the SH acquisition was a replacement for Australia’s F-111 fleet and the Growlers were a useful addition. Like the USN, the 4th Gen fighters will work along with the F-35s as they still have some life left. The F-35 will eventually take over completely.

SpazSinbad posted this just before I see.:)
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
"...The F-35 will eventually take over completely...."? This may not happen at all when the EA-18G fitted with the Next Generation Jammer (which may never be fitted to RAAF F-35s) will be useful even IF only with the NAVY & ARMY - as RAAF states it is most useful today (so they claim) in our environment.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Here is an interesting report for all on the Gripen and Saab as a package to replace numerous dated platforms within the RCAF.

https://prism.ucalgary.ca/bitstream...pstone_McColl_2018.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
Interesting paper, but I honestly feel that a number of the conclusions reached by the author are wrong, as is some of the information used and provided.

An interesting thing I noted was that the author seemed to be advocating for new (to the RCAF) fighter and MPA designs with a selection criteria that seemed to believe that the new designs meeting the performance capabilities of the RCAF they are to replace is acceptable, and used the performance of the CF-18's in operations over/around Libya, Kosovo/Serbia and Iraq as benchmarks.

That to me is a dangerous standard to use as a benchmark, because it only has the RCAF operating a part of a multi-national coalition against nations/armed forces that are generally less advanced and capable as most of the member-nations of the coalitions assembled. If the RCAF did have to act on it's own to defend Canada, or take defensive actions as part of NATO and/or NORAD, it would be against a much more advanced and capable opponent.

In a similar vein, it does appear that the author did not take a serious look at current and likely near-future defence developments, which means that judgments or opinions made about what would viable for the CF-18 fighter replacement's service life become questionable IMO. One of the key elements in current battlespace management is achieving information dominance as quickly as possible, and to the greatest degree possible. The author does seem to understand parts of that, namely that it is important to be able to collect and relay to the pilots as much information as possible in a usable format, but the author does not seem to understand that it is also just as important to deny the hostiles as much information as possible.

In this case, fielding a fighter aircraft out to 2050 or so (assuming a 20 to 25 year service life starting in the mid-2020's to 2030-ish) with some RCS measures taken plus possibly some on-board/pod active jammers is not going to achieve information denial to the same degree as a LO aircraft. If one is only going up against nose-mounted fighter radars, then the RCS reduction efforts and active jammers might be sufficient, but if/when the hostiles have distributed sensor systems like ground-based or AEW radar arrays and the datalinks to utilize that information.

To put it another way, the author does not seem to realize that the RCAF would almost certainly encounter issues by 2050 if they attempt to keep a 4th gen fighter aircraft in production since 1987 in front line service. That would be like the RCAF trying to use the A-4 Skyhawk as a modern, front line fighter now, today.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Lots of life left in the Typhoon. Upgrades to radar and EW are in the works, CFTs are planned (which, according to Wikkipedia, increase the combat radius to 1500nm, which would be class leading, and perfect for the interceptor role). Aerodynamic enhancements are said to improve agility and maneuverability. The engines were reputed to have a design margin of 30%, and could be equipped with Thrust Vectoring Nozzles.

This could also give Canada a doorway into the development of the Franco/German New Generation Fighter.

Eurofighter Typhoon - Wikipedia
Wikipedia is not regarded as a reliable source, so I strongly suggest finding a more reputable source.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Oz Supers came as a sudden 'bridge the gap' when F-111s retired early. Then argy-bargy about whether to modify some to become 'Growlers', then decision to buy brand new EA-18Gs instead. RAAF became so enamoured of this NEW capability with the NGJ on the horizon that they will help bring that capability, being in lockstep with the USN in this regard. There is speculation that NGJ Next Gen Jammer will also be fitted to the F-35 but not confirmed AFAIK. Australia does not operate F-22s or the other youbeaut USAF aircraft, even classing the Growler as a 'support' aircraft AFAIK. Our RAAF have figured out what they want in PROJECT JERICHO, with the EA-18Gs (now only eleven) being useful because we are not USAF. We may well see the Growlers retired some time after Shornets have gone elsewhere - in the meantime we learn Electronic Attack in ways that no other country except US can match, a capability the RAAF have not had before.
This a Bravo Zulu for a thoughtful and well structured post. (BZ = well done)

LOVERLY BOY.jpg

This does not mean that I agree or disagree with the contents of the post.
A BZ is awarded to reward good quality posts and encourage good posting behaviour.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
Todjaeger

The author has taken the opinion that is "Canadian". We will never act on our own in a hostile way towards another nation. Ever. Never going to happen.

Like New Zealand, distance from an aggresive neighbour is such that they cant get to us except with ballistic missle or sea launched cruise missles thus his reference to BMD protection.

Our lack of tankers precludes an enmass deployment of fighters regardless of what we buy. Ours is a token air force with niche capability to slot into coalition operations and that includes NORAD. If the generals want the latest and greatest to play with the deep pockets of the US and the Uk and appease LM and our commitments to the F35 program then doen the road a squadron or two can be acquired for those missions.

Imho the author has come to a conclusion that is realistic politically, operationally and financially.

It allows Junior an out on the F35, buys votes from the aerospace sector and doesnt drain the treasury.

A purchase of 28 F35 to outfit an operational squadron, training and attrition aircraft plus a buy of 60 or so Gripen for home use would suffice for what we do as a military. If you are joining the RCAF and think you are going to be first in on the next run at Bagdad or Kabul you have rocks for brains. Throttle jockeys here may get to do CAP, or act as bombers in uncontested space but peer on peer isnt the Canadian way.

As the author noted we ran three types during the 1970s. The need for aircraft based in Europe may come back and thats where the F35 would be beneficial along with our allies who have chosen it over there like the Starfighter was.

The authors concept of a SAAB family of aircraft isnt out to lunch .The production line for the P8 will be closed by the time we decide to retire the Aurora. Using domestic production such as the Bombardier Global series makes sense politically as well and as stated I wont be surprised if an A200, C series, version of an MPA doesnt get some momentum.

Remember everyone discussing the Canadian military the defence of Canada or its citizens is not the governments first priority ...... Its jobs.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Like New Zealand, distance from an aggresive neighbour is such that they cant get to us except with ballistic missle or sea launched cruise missles thus his reference to BMD protection.
Canada has a potentially hostile nation quite close to it in Russia, far closer than any potential hostile nation NZ has, apart from Australia when it comes to sport. And Canada has two tad long land borders with the US who are at present friendly, however relations between the US and Canada have changed in the past with both nations being mortal enemies at one stage. That could happen again - no one knows what the future may bring. Whereas NZ is spatially isolated with a tad large moat surrounding it that physically separates us from our neighbours on the West Island (Aussie), so any comparisons based on spatial strategic similarities, would have to be reasonably broadly based, rather than being detailed and helpful.
Remember everyone discussing the Canadian military the defence of Canada or its citizens is not the governments first priority ...... Its jobs.
And that is arse about face, to put it bluntly, which doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
 

Black Jack Shellac

Active Member
Canada has a potentially hostile nation quite close to it in Russia, far closer than any potential hostile nation NZ has, apart from Australia when it comes to sport. And Canada has two tad long land borders with the US who are at present friendly, however relations between the US and Canada have changed in the past with both nations being mortal enemies at one stage. That could happen again - no one knows what the future may bring. Whereas NZ is spatially isolated with a tad large moat surrounding it that physically separates us from our neighbours on the West Island (Aussie), so any comparisons based on spatial strategic similarities, would have to be reasonably broadly based, rather than being detailed and helpful.

And that is arse about face, to put it bluntly, which doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
Speaking as a Canadian, it seems to me that most Canadians who understand the purpose of defence (other than the military) are already on this board (all 10 of them). So Novascotiaboy's comment about jobs is the dead truth. That is not to say that it isn't arse about face - it is. As for the USA as a threat to Canada, the only scenario I see for them invading is if we don't keep up our military, and they walk in and set up air bases to protect themselves. Bottom line is if the USA decided to invade Canada, the war would be over before it started.

As for the Russians, I think the days of the Russians flying bombers over the arctic (other than to just piss us off) are over. A ballistic missile does far more far faster than a bomber. The arctic is very isolated, and not very hospitable - an ocean would be easier to pass through. Canada does need jets for arctic patrol, for sovereignty patrol and to keep the americans from setting up bases without our permission, but beyond that, I cannot see any enemy choosing that route to invade. 900 nautical miles of tundra to get from landfall to Edmonton (the most northern real city - sorry Yellowknife), all tundra. Tundra is all bugs and swamp in the summer and freezes your piss solid before it hits the ground in the winter. Would never happen.

I am not a defence pro though, so if you know of another threat, I would be happy to be educated (serious, no sarcasm).

Regards
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Speaking as a Canadian, it seems to me that most Canadians who understand the purpose of defence (other than the military) are already on this board (all 10 of them). So Novascotiaboy's comment about jobs is the dead truth. That is not to say that it isn't arse about face - it is. As for the USA as a threat to Canada, the only scenario I see for them invading is if we don't keep up our military, and they walk in and set up air bases to protect themselves. Bottom line is if the USA decided to invade Canada, the war would be over before it started.

As for the Russians, I think the days of the Russians flying bombers over the arctic (other than to just piss us off) are over. A ballistic missile does far more far faster than a bomber. The arctic is very isolated, and not very hospitable - an ocean would be easier to pass through. Canada does need jets for arctic patrol, for sovereignty patrol and to keep the americans from setting up bases without our permission, but beyond that, I cannot see any enemy choosing that route to invade. 900 nautical miles of tundra to get from landfall to Edmonton (the most northern real city - sorry Yellowknife), all tundra. Tundra is all bugs and swamp in the summer and freezes your piss solid before it hits the ground in the winter. Would never happen.

I am not a defence pro though, so if you know of another threat, I would be happy to be educated (serious, no sarcasm).

Regards

If a major war were to kick off with one of the nuclear armed nations, and they wished to keep things conventional then no ones going to be using INCM’s as no one will wait to see if its a nuclear weapon or not. Long range bombers still have a place in the arsenal
 

Black Jack Shellac

Active Member
If a major war were to kick off with one of the nuclear armed nations, and they wished to keep things conventional then no ones going to be using INCM’s as no one will wait to see if its a nuclear weapon or not. Long range bombers still have a place in the arsenal
Understood, thanks for that!
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Todjaeger

The author has taken the opinion that is "Canadian". We will never act on our own in a hostile way towards another nation. Ever. Never going to happen.

Like New Zealand, distance from an aggresive neighbour is such that they cant get to us except with ballistic missle or sea launched cruise missles thus his reference to BMD protection.

Our lack of tankers precludes an enmass deployment of fighters regardless of what we buy. Ours is a token air force with niche capability to slot into coalition operations and that includes NORAD. If the generals want the latest and greatest to play with the deep pockets of the US and the Uk and appease LM and our commitments to the F35 program then doen the road a squadron or two can be acquired for those missions.

Imho the author has come to a conclusion that is realistic politically, operationally and financially.

It allows Junior an out on the F35, buys votes from the aerospace sector and doesnt drain the treasury.

A purchase of 28 F35 to outfit an operational squadron, training and attrition aircraft plus a buy of 60 or so Gripen for home use would suffice for what we do as a military. If you are joining the RCAF and think you are going to be first in on the next run at Bagdad or Kabul you have rocks for brains. Throttle jockeys here may get to do CAP, or act as bombers in uncontested space but peer on peer isnt the Canadian way.

As the author noted we ran three types during the 1970s. The need for aircraft based in Europe may come back and thats where the F35 would be beneficial along with our allies who have chosen it over there like the Starfighter was.

The authors concept of a SAAB family of aircraft isnt out to lunch .The production line for the P8 will be closed by the time we decide to retire the Aurora. Using domestic production such as the Bombardier Global series makes sense politically as well and as stated I wont be surprised if an A200, C series, version of an MPA doesnt get some momentum.

Remember everyone discussing the Canadian military the defence of Canada or its citizens is not the governments first priority ...... Its jobs.
Please re-read what I posted, but more carefully. More specifically the comments about the RCAF defending Canada, or taking defensive actions as part of NATO and/or NORAD.

Also look at a globe again and see what countries are closest to Canada proper. For instance, the personnel stationed at CFS Alert, as well as the permanent inhabitants of Alert might be surprised to discover per your statement, that they can only be attacked via ballistic missiles or sea-launched cruise missiles, despite being ~1,500 km away from the closest Russian airbase. It should also be noted that Russia has fielded a number of air-launched cruise missiles with ranges in excess of 1,500 km. Additionally, that distance is roughly within the combat radius of Su-35 fighter aircraft...

With the potential for a seasonal Northwest passage opening due to Arctic ice pack melting, as well as an increased potential for conflict with Russia over competing sea and undersea resource claims, then it would be reasonable to assume that Russia would seek the ability to neutralize Canadian assets which would be used to either bolster or defend Canadian claims. In fact, prior to the annexation of the Crimean Peninsula and conflict in the Ukraine, Russia been be working on rebuilding it capabilities to project power in the Arctic.

Now I do not think most people would believe in the possibility of an actual invasion due to both the distances involved, as well as how hostile the terrain can be to operate in, that does not preclude Russia forces from harassing Canadian shipping, fishing, or resource exploitation assets, or Canadian forces tasked with protecting the former and/or enforcing Canadian claims.

Part of what needs to happen with procuring new/replacement kit, is honestly evaluating not just what the current threats are, but coming up assessments for what the future threats will be, and then weighing whether or not the capabilities of the kit being contemplated for procurement could meet those threats.

At some point Russia will likely have something like a 5th gen fighter operational in some numbers though that might not be until the late 2020's or even later. A pair of RCAF Gripen or Tornado fighters would most likely be in quite some trouble if they were used to escort a Canadian ISR or MPA aircraft over northern Canada and such Russian fighters decided to 'visit' such troublesome aircraft, especially if the Russian aircraft were being vectored from an A-50 AEW aircraft, or whatever Russia fielded at the time.

Also, so far what I have mentioned has only involved Canada and Canadian territorial and northern EEZ claims. There is the absolute potential for more distant events or incidents to occur which impact Canadian interests and therefore require a response. Having read through the paper, IMO very little attention was paid to the current threat environment, never mind what future threats might be. Also, while the paper was a submission as part of obtaining a Masters degree in Public Policy, I got the sense that the author had very little understanding of how modern air battles function, or the importance of obtaining information while denying it to one's enemies. Why else would they bring up supercruising and including that as a capability which defines whether a fighter is 5th gen or not (it does not btw, at least not by USAF definitions of fighter aircraft generations) or bring up thrust vectoring nozzles and maneuverability as important features, more so than LO.

Given some of the examples of Canadian defence procurement, with the Sea King replacement debacle coming to mind in particular, I could see Canada making a procurement decision which is not in the best interests of Canada in terms of costs, capabilities, service needs, or threats. With that in mind, I do feel that when people bring up potential procurement ideas, then flaws in those ideas really should be pointed out in an effort to reduce the likelihood of a selection which is not in the best interests of Canada being made.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #996
Todjaeger, all great points in your post. However, Canada has two huge problems when it comes to defence (and other issues as well), its pollies and citizens. Pollies here are mostly all self serving #ricks and citizens are whiners with little interest in efficient government unless it involves handouts. Frankly I don’t see this situation improving so defence will slowly wither away short of all out war.
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
Wikipedia is not regarded as a reliable source, so I strongly suggest finding a more reputable source.
I would normally agree, but the references in the Citations section lend credibility to the content. However, here is another link to back up the information contained in the Wikipedia entry:

Eurofighter Typhoon | The world's most advanced fighter jet

Scroll down to the section "Future".

Further back-up:

Future Capability | BAE Systems | International

ILA: Eurofighter to upgrade Typhoon engine to lift sales

U.K. to stick with Eurofighter development in air combat strategy
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #999
I would expect the Eurofighter site to hype themselves. The Typhoon is an excellent 4.5 GEN fighter and as such its shelf life is limited to optimistically 15-20 years. Canada needs a jet that will be viable for 30-40 years. Surely you don’t want to see another fighter replacement gong show 15-20 years from now? From your reference note the AESA development in 2017. Even the French have had AESA for several years now. This slow process is likely due to partners disagreeing on specifications or perhaps on workshare. This consortium approach makes sense economically perhaps but slows development IMO. The French have managed to produce an AF and Navy version of the Rafale, a reasonable 4.5 GEN effort by themselves.

As previously commented on, information denial, will be far more useful in the future than a jet’s kinematic performance simply because missile technology is improving so rapidly. Not going with 5 GEN fighters now is just pi$$ing money away.
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
I would expect the Eurofighter site to hype themselves. The Typhoon is an excellent 4.5 GEN fighter and as such its shelf life is limited to optimistically 15-20 years. Canada needs a jet that will be viable for 30-40 years. Surely you don’t want to see another fighter replacement gong show 15-20 years from now? From your reference note the AESA development in 2017. Even the French have had AESA for several years now. This slow process is likely due to partners disagreeing on specifications or perhaps on workshare. This consortium approach makes sense economically perhaps but slows development IMO. The French have managed to produce an AF and Navy version of the Rafale, a reasonable 4.5 GEN effort by themselves.

As previously commented on, information denial, will be far more useful in the future than a jet’s kinematic performance simply because missile technology is improving so rapidly. Not going with 5 GEN fighters now is just pi$$ing money away.
If you read my original post related to Typhoon you will see that I pretty clearly indicated my personal preference is for F35. I simply stated that Typhoon has a much greater chance of success now as Airbus has offered technology transfer and local manufacture (as has Saab). This is all a result of the Airbus/Bombardier tie-up and the establishment of Canada as a partner country in Airbus (https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/...ier-c-series-partnership-enders-letter-en.pdf). In my opinion this has changed the dynamic of this competition quite substantially, as it mitigates the F35's advantage where it comes to industrial offset.

Of the choices other than F35, Typhoon and SH would seem to best match the RCAF's current taskings. However, Typhoon is considerably faster and more maneuverable, which is still an important factor in a dogfight, and since there does appear to be planned development, would not be a bad second choice, after F35. Also, not to be underestimated, is the two versus one engine argument, which despite all the evidence showing single engine fighters are as safe as twin-engine models, still has resonance with our politicians and the uninformed media in Canada.
 
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