Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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StingrayOZ

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Honestly the current NZG does not AFAIK have much of a choice but to ban any/all nuclear-powered vessels from NZ home waters, courtesy of the
New Zealand Nuclear Free Zone, Disarmament, and Arms Control Act of 1987 which I have linked to here.
Obviously there are solutions, and Australian subs rarely/never visited NZ as it was. So from a practical point of view nothing changes. Collins will be with Australia for decades yet.

But it will put some pressure on NZ to figure out what it wants.
Dissipating Anzus is probably a bigger issue. Perhaps a proper ANZAC treaty is needed. At the same time AU can arm twist. Although I hear NZ is changing its name, so perhaps they will just disappear. Often people don't even bother putting it on the global map anymore. ;-)

I honestly don't know what will happen going forward but building nukes in Australia still seems to be a pipe dream. I actually found myself googling "How to build a Nuclear Submarine"and come to the conclusion that it maybe beyond Australia's capability. However I don't see any spare capacity in either the UK or US. Unless the USN is willing to give up a few of their spots in the Virginia production line or the UK is willing to push back the Dreadnaught class I don't see an overseas build happening.
Local build here. For sure. Reactor will probably be UK PWR3, but with perhaps US material. Reactor building capacity isn't the problem at the moment.

Reactors are now sealed for life units. Never need to be refuelled, or opened up at all. We get the magic physics gizmo from overseas, and put it in our box.
 

PeterM

Active Member
Undoubtedly this is an off the peg build the only question is, will it be Astutes or Virginia's. The decision might be something like 8 x Astutes or 6 x Virginias. Some sort of ratio like that, and a decision will need to be made.

Reactors will be shipped over complete. Never need to be refuelled, and will be shipped back for decommissioning.
I am expecting an Astute with US combat systems, much like Ngata mentioned earlier. They are being built in Adelaide, so the scaling up of infrastructure requirements needed to build these will be a factor.
  • Attack class were meant to be around 97m x 8.8m
  • Astutes are 97m x 11.3m
  • Virginias are 115m (140m for block V) x 10m
Virginia's will need a 20% longer dock at least.

I also think Boris Johnson's presence at the announcement for the subs is notable, particularly as he mentioned creating jobs in England in his speech.
 

alexsa

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Obviously there are solutions, and Australian subs rarely/never visited NZ as it was. So from a practical point of view nothing changes. Collins will be with Australia for decades yet.

But it will put some pressure on NZ to figure out what it wants.
Dissipating Anzus is probably a bigger issue. Perhaps a proper ANZAC treaty is needed. At the same time AU can arm twist. Although I hear NZ is changing its name, so perhaps they will just disappear. Often people don't even bother putting it on the global map anymore. ;-)


Local build here. For sure. Reactor will probably be UK PWR3, but with perhaps US material. Reactor building capacity isn't the problem at the moment.

Reactors are now sealed for life units. Never need to be refuelled, or opened up at all. We get the magic physics gizmo from overseas, and put it in our box.
The Oberons did visit NZ so we could play with their P3's..... I had the joy of sailing into Timaru in mid winter .... a submarine bridge is VERY open with not place to escape a draft. Submarine Jumpers a necessity.

I suspect the Collins may do the same but could not be sure.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I am expecting an Astute with US combat systems, much like Ngata mentioned earlier. They are being built in Adelaide, so the scaling up of infrastructure requirements needed to build these will be a factor.
  • Attack class were meant to be around 97m x 8.8m
  • Astutes are 97m x 11.3m
  • Virginias are 115m (140m for block V) x 10m
Virginia's will need a 20% longer dock at least.

I also think Boris Johnson's presence at the announcement for the subs is notable, particularly as he mentioned creating jobs in England in his speech.
If I were a betting man I would say Astutes with a US combat system. For that to happen the US would still need to acquiesce which explains Biden's presence at the announcement. BAE Systems also already has a huge presence in Australia which would speed up the process.
 

alexsa

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If I were a betting man I would say Astutes with a US combat system. For that to happen the US would still need to acquiesce which explains Biden's presence at the announcement. BAE Systems also already has a huge presence in Australia which would speed up the process.
And it may be 12 if you believe this quote attributed to the PM

Instead we should buy 12 of a proven design which is already in the water. We want long-range hunter-killer vessels. We also want them to be able to stay submerged for long periods to avoid detection. Nuclear does this in spades."

Australia, US and UK form AUUKUS under a new nuclear submarine defence pact | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
But it will put some pressure on NZ to figure out what it wants.
Dissipating Anzus is probably a bigger issue. Perhaps a proper ANZAC treaty is needed. At the same time AU can arm twist.
A constructive comment.

Although I hear NZ is changing its name, so perhaps they will just disappear. Often people don't even bother putting it on the global map anymore. ;-)
And this is not.
 

SavageDentures

New Member
I am expecting an Astute with US combat systems, much like Ngata mentioned earlier. They are being built in Adelaide, so the scaling up of infrastructure requirements needed to build these will be a factor.
  • Attack class were meant to be around 97m x 8.8m
  • Astutes are 97m x 11.3m
  • Virginias are 115m (140m for block V) x 10m
Virginia's will need a 20% longer dock at least.

I also think Boris Johnson's presence at the announcement for the subs is notable, particularly as he mentioned creating jobs in England in his speech.
If they choose Astute class I hope they get a wriggle on as its taking the Poms 9 - 11 years per build to commissioning per sub

1631762334275.png
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
And it may be 12 if you believe this quote attributed to the PM

Instead we should buy 12 of a proven design which is already in the water. We want long-range hunter-killer vessels. We also want them to be able to stay submerged for long periods to avoid detection. Nuclear does this in spades."

Australia, US and UK form AUUKUS under a new nuclear submarine defence pact | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site
Oh Brother, News.com, can't even get the name of the new defence pact right:(
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am expecting an Astute with US combat systems, much like Ngata mentioned earlier. They are being built in Adelaide, so the scaling up of infrastructure requirements needed to build these will be a factor.
I think the crewing is the biggest issue with the US subs. But the US subs are longer, but I don't think thats a deal breaker.

The Oberons did visit NZ so we could play with their P3's..... I had the joy of sailing into Timaru in mid winter .... a submarine bridge is VERY open with not place to escape a draft. Submarine Jumpers a necessity.

I suspect the Collins may do the same but could not be sure
Long way from FBW..
I would assume any P8 would have to fly to Australia to get any sort of training.
 

ngatimozart

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Staff member
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The Oberons did visit NZ so we could play with their P3's..... I had the joy of sailing into Timaru in mid winter .... a submarine bridge is VERY open with not place to escape a draft. Submarine Jumpers a necessity.

I suspect the Collins may do the same but could not be sure.
Nice surge in Timaru too, even when you are alongside. I paid a visit to a RAN Oberon when it was tied up alongside at Wellington in 1981. Can't remember which boat.
 

alexsa

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think the crewing is the biggest issue with the US subs. But the US subs are longer, but I don't think thats a deal breaker.



Long way from FBW..
I would assume any P8 would have to fly to Australia to get any sort of training.
Oberon's were based out of Sydney so yes, it was less of a difference. However, the Collins do deploy to the East noting there are still ships they have to play with there.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
How can that be if they are getting built in Adelaide?
It think Redlands is referring to the fact the drum beat for completion the UK Astutes was spaced out to ensure the workforce was kept employed pending the next major project being the SSBN replacement. It avoids the valley of death construction issues, it may also mean there is spare capacity to support the Australian projection. This is all speculation for the time being pending a bit more detail from Defence.
 

rand0m

Member
Not sure if this had been posted, not the most reliable source.. can't access behind paywall

"Australia will build at least eight nuclear-
owered submarines under a historic new military alliance with the United States and Britain, dumping the troubled $90 billion future submarine deal with France."

 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
How can that be if they are getting built in Adelaide?
Just comparing the 2 different continuous Sub building plans for 2 different Navies for very similar numbers of subs RAN 12 RN 11 and that they would see them commissioned over a period of about 24-26 years.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Not sure if this had been posted, not the most reliable source.. can't access behind paywall

"Australia will build at least eight nuclear-
owered submarines under a historic new military alliance with the United States and Britain, dumping the troubled $90 billion future submarine deal with France."

My guess is the 8 is an educated guess no more.
 
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