Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Bonza]

My point was if involved in a conflict with a major power the fleet would be saturated by enemy missiles and aircraft and if the escorts are destroyed it leaves the LHD a sitting-duck. The future Replenishment-ships should also have the same armament I suggested for the LHD's. Navy will always have a small number of hulls so each ship should have a capable defence. I won't even mention the LHD's should have had four (4) AV8B Plus II each; sorry, I just did.

In a conflict with a major power then in all likelihood we're going to be operating in conjunction with the US Navy, which means even more escorts working from a much, much larger sensor picture. The chances of an LHD's survival go up, not down, in that situation.

And if you seriously think area defence escorts are going to have their hands full just looking after themselves and will put no emphasis on defending the high value asset then I'm sorry, but you're totally incorrect. And a Phalanx or two won't make a lick of difference.

 

[King Wally]

In a conflict with a major power then in all likelihood we're going to be operating in conjunction with the US Navy, which means even more escorts working from a much, much larger sensor picture. The chances of an LHD's survival go up, not down, in that situation.

10 Super carriers and another 10 STOVL Carriers ready to deploy right there. With the USN at the top of our ally list I'm not sure why we are stressing so much about breaking the bank to squeeze a couple F-35B on our LHD's given the sheer cost involved (and I refer to cost in many ways more then financial). If we wanted to be good coalition partners in this type of war I think we'll be best to focus on our strengths and do them well in my personal opinion. LHD wise that would be getting the Army deployed from A to B. Sea control / Blue Water warfare wise, that's another story for another group of assets (Subs, AWD, P3/8's, SuperHornets etc).

 

[protoplasm]

Nope, I'd go the other way and suggest that the LHDs probably could have been smaller, not have a ski jump,possibly not have a through deck but still retain the core capabilities and be more effective overall in the long run because no one would be trying to turn them into battleship-aircraft carriers. Every bit of kit and capability that is added to them has the potential to dilute or degrade their ability to do the job they were bought to do. Far better to have had a visually less impressive LPD, or similar, that people and politicians would be happy just to leave alone.

If fleet defenses are swamped to the degree that AEGIS and ASMD ships can't cope the LHD is a goner anyway and the task group should not have been deployed in the first place. If you want STOVL combat aircraft and an amphibious capability, buy a Wasp or a pair of specialist ships. Just don't stuff up the needed capability the ships were actually bought to fill by trying to make it do things it wasn't intended to do when ordered.

I'll do it GF, I LIKE this. If an AWD and maybe a couple of ASMD Anzacs can't deal with the incoming we are playing in a space where we shouldn't be.

 

[Monitor66]

Nope, I'd go the other way and suggest that the LHDs probably could have been smaller, not have a ski jump,possibly not have a through deck but still retain the core capabilities and be more effective overall in the long run because no one would be trying to turn them into battleship-aircraft carriers. Every bit of kit and capability that is added to them has the potential to dilute or degrade their ability to do the job they were bought to do. Far better to have had a visually less impressive LPD, or similar, that people and politicians would be happy just to leave alone.

If fleet defenses are swamped to the degree that AEGIS and ASMD ships can't cope the LHD is a goner anyway and the task group should not have been deployed in the first place. If you want STOVL combat aircraft and an amphibious capability, buy a Wasp or a pair of specialist ships. Just don't stuff up the needed capability the ships were actually bought to fill by trying to make it do things it wasn't intended to do when ordered.

Why bother arming them at all in that case?

Having a reasonable, cost-effective and balanced self-defence armament in no way detracts from the LHD's principle role.

Whether smaller, no through deck or painted in tiger stripes that kind of ship will always be a target because it will be central to the amphibious operation being undertaken.

 

[Monitor66]

I'll do it GF, I LIKE this. If an AWD and maybe a couple of ASMD Anzacs can't deal with the incoming we are playing in a space where we shouldn't be.

What space would that be? Do you mean high-end warfighting against an adversary with more than a handful of ship, aircraft or land-based ASMs? Aren't the AWDs intended precisely for this kind of defence?

If we are to avoid such conflicts why do we have/plan to have Super Hornet, F-35, P8, advanced subs (with land attack missiles), air-to-air refuellers, LHD, AWD, Land 400 close combat vehicles. All for HADR missions or PSO perhaps.

So not sure what you mean by saying we shouldn't be there, because it certainly looks like the ADF has prepared itself to play in that space if necessary, however briefly and however minor role they might play in a coalition.

 

[John Newman]

I think this debate on the defensive armament (or lack of) for the LHD's at their time of commissioning has got to the point of going around in circles, and if it keeps going this way, the circles will get that small it will disappear up its own butt!!

Seriously, as the various Senior Members and Def Pro's here have pointed out, that in the event of the 'sloppy brown stuff hitting the fan' then those issues will no doubt be addressed.

In the event of that sloppy brown stuff hitting the fan happening, then either/all (a) the defensive armament will be upgraded to the necessary relevant level, (b) the LHD's will be escorted by AWD's and upgraded Anzac's and (c) be part of a much larger coalition operation that will have the necessary resources to protect more lightly armed ships in the fleet, such as the LHD's.

And if all of the above points don't happen, then it's pretty obvious, there is no way the LHD's will be put in that situation in the first place.

Problem solved!!

 

[RobWilliams]

What space would that be? Do you mean high-end warfighting against an adversary with more than a handful of ship, aircraft or land-based ASMs? Aren't the AWDs intended precisely for this kind of defence?

It would take more than a handful to defeat a networked battlegroup with a Hobart and even more if an Anzac is part of it (as it would be if you were going against someone with the capability you describe and a mind to use it) with 32 ESSM to throw as well as its own sensors.

Combat systems are designed to deal with substantially big attacks, the people who design those things do know what they need to be capable of dealing with.

With respect to not being there, I presume the intent was that if they have this adversary has hundreds of AShMs adequately prepared for firing and using external targeters (which themselves would be vulnerable) then why would the RAN knowingly sail a RAN battlegroup into their target envelope which can't deal with it.

 

[Monitor66]

I think this debate on the defensive armament (or lack of) for the LHD's at their time of commissioning has got to the point of going around in circles, and if it keeps going this way, the circles will get that small it will disappear up its own butt!!

Seriously, as the various Senior Members and Def Pro's here have pointed out, that in the event of the 'sloppy brown stuff hitting the fan' then those issues will no doubt be addressed.

In the event of that sloppy brown stuff hitting the fan happening, then either/all (a) the defensive armament will be upgraded to the necessary relevant level, (b) the LHD's will be escorted by AWD's and upgraded Anzac's and (c) be part of a much larger coalition operation that will have the necessary resources to protect more lightly armed ships in the fleet, such as the LHD's.

And if all of the above points don't happen, then it's pretty obvious, there is no way the LHD's will be put in that situation in the first place.

Problem solved!!

Upgraded in what timeframe! With what - Phalanx? Where on the ship?

As you say, this really is going around in circles. But I cannot subscribe to the "she'll be right" theory.

 

[Monitor66]

It would take more than a handful to defeat a networked battlegroup with a Hobart and even more if an Anzac is part of it (as it would be if you were going against someone with the capability you describe and a mind to use it) with 32 ESSM to throw as well as its own sensors.

Combat systems are designed to deal with substantially big attacks, the people who design those things do know what they need to be capable of dealing with.

With respect to not being there, I presume the intent was that if they have this adversary has hundreds of AShMs adequately prepared for firing and using external targeters (which themselves would be vulnerable) then why would the RAN knowingly sail a RAN battlegroup into their target envelope which can't deal with it.

True to an extent, but what of a scenario where we have little visibility of such threat or where the assets are already deployed in theatre and the situation rapidly escalates beyond what was envisaged.

Anyway, gents. To those among you who are of the opinion that the LHDs are good to go armed as they are I must agree to disagree.

 

[RobWilliams]

Escalates to what? The AWD's are designed to defend a fleet from air attack including sea skimming missile systems, countries don't just start a random surprise attack from their coast, there would be chatter, ELINT etc demonstrating a work up of coastal missile batteries on a large scale as well as gearing up other defence arms because if they were going to knowingly cause a war, their air/naval/ground forces would be on alert. These would create ripples, ripples which certainly the US would be able to detect and study.

Under the assumption that a Hobart would be escorting the LHD, perhaps even an Anzac. If you listed all of those weapon and sensor combinations then would adding millennium guns make a big difference?

Just probing the thought is all, I have no opinion on the armament of the LHDs.

 

[John Newman]

Upgraded in what timeframe! With what - Phalanx? Where on the ship?

As you say, this really is going around in circles. But I cannot subscribe to the "she'll be right" theory.

What timeframe? Tomorrow? Next week? Next year?

So do you think we are all going to wake up on some sunny Sunday morning and read the paper and it says 'WWIII' has started!! Somehow I don't think so.

I don't think anyone here is saying 'she'll be right', but I don't think anyone is saying that 'if' and that is the very BIG if, that if the poo does hit the fan that we won't have 'fair' warning AND in any event the LHD's won't be sent in harms way without the appropriate protection, be that increased defensive armament on the ships themselves, or being protected by AWD's, etc, or being part of a much larger coalition fleet with the appropriate protection for all ships in the fleet too.

 

[SouthernSky]

Upgraded in what timeframe! With what - Phalanx? Where on the ship?

As you say, this really is going around in circles. But I cannot subscribe to the "she'll be right" theory.

I think you've made your point. You've been banging on about it for four pages now. Give it a rest.

 

[aussienscale]

Where is that like button GF ? Webs ?

 

[ASSAIL]

Where is that like button GF ? Webs ?

Better still Webs, a STFU button, the first S is shut. You figure the rest

 

[Monitor66]

I think you've made your point. You've been banging on about it for four pages now. Give it a rest.

Umm, thought I did by agreeing to disagree.

 

[Monitor66]

Better still Webs, a STFU button, the first S is shut. You figure the rest

STFU? Really? Expected more of this forum actually.

 

[gf0012-aust]

OK, I think we can move along doggy now

If we can all play nice it would also be useful even if we disagree....

 

[aussienscale]

Quick question regarding CEC, I believe it is still the intention to get CEC for the Hobart Class, I also remember some time ago talk of CEC being able to be integrated into the Anzac's/Anzac II's at a later date as it is suitable to be used with the Ceafar/Ceamount in conjunction with the 9LV CMS, or Auspar in future.

There was some talk of this as the US got involved with CEA, so just wondering if anyone has heard anything more of this ? I know some of you would know, SA ? But understand if you can't comment in open forum.

Following on from that, if CEC could be integrated for use with the 9LV CMS, could this also be used in conjunction with the LHD's Sea Giraffe to add information to the CEC picture further enhancing the umbrella ?

Cheers

 

[alexsa]

True to an extent, but what of a scenario where we have little visibility of such threat or where the assets are already deployed in theatre and the situation rapidly escalates beyond what was envisaged.

Anyway, gents. To those among you who are of the opinion that the LHDs are good to go armed as they are I must agree to disagree.

Sorry to sound like a broken record but this is not what has been suggested, Rather most are of the view CIWS can be fitted if required and with escorts and NULKA this should be sufficient for current CONOPS. As noted previouly I doubt there are any strength limitation on the poop (quarter) deck and starboard bow as these are part of the the hull and weather deck (in the case of the bow) structure (happy to be corrected). It is also possible the port bow platform is also strong enough.

In my view 2, 3 or 4 CIWS is a pretty good defensive armament but I do prefer SeaRAM for the better stand off distance, I accept from a cost and practicality perspective this may not be a real option.

Both SeaRAM and Phalanx have the advantage that they are a self contained weapons system containing both the weapon and sensors allowing for them to be retrofitted to established positions on a ship, such as those on Choules, quickly.

Even Millenium guns are not self contained in the same fashion.

Given the choice of dropping a Mk41 and all the associated systems on the LHD or outfitting these on another escort then I wouel choose the latter, particularly if the LHD has teh ability to carry Phalanx or SeaRAM (noting we do not have the latter in our inventory).

And before anybody howls I am noty saying we must have more light frigate escorts for this to work (much as I would like them) what I am looking a a balance and in the RAN context fitting VLS and all the trimmings to the LHD may not be practically within our means. CIWS certainly appears to be.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Following on from that, if CEC could be integrated for use with the 9LV CMS, could this also be used in conjunction with the LHD's Sea Giraffe to add information to the CEC picture further enhancing the umbrella ?

Cheers

in short - yes