Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Riga]

I'll do it GF, I LIKE this. If an AWD and maybe a couple of ASMD Anzacs can't deal with the incoming we are playing in a space where we shouldn't be.

Where would this space be? China is projecting power now and turning - albeit slowly - into a blue water navy. I would suggest, that if you are going to be bezzers with America, you ought to take seriously the fact that the war could come to you: Darwin ring any bells?

That type of thinking smacks of complacency and is what contributed to the RN taking a kicking in the South Atlantic several moons ago.

 

[Bonza]

The thinking doesn't smack of complacency at all, the AWD is being produced precisely to provide area air defence for other vessels such as the Canberras and the ASMD/CEAFAR/CEAMOUNT upgrades are intended to significantly enhance the ability of the ANZAC class to see and destroy manoeuvring air targets, which is exactly what was being discussed: anti-ship missiles and air attacks.

So you see, this isn't complacency. This is actually the opposite of complacency, because the plans in place are addressing the need for area air defence for high value fleet units.

 

[aussienscale]

Biofuel

Found this article in the Australian, interesting but inevitable move, do recall there was some talk of this a couple of years ago.

Does this move effect the upcoming announcement of the Replenishment ship replacements ? Would the use of Biofuel require any design changes for them, also I would imagine maintenance programs would have to be adjusted, maybe possible mods for older equipment etc ?

Would be interested in peoples thoughts ?

Cheers

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

 

[CB90]

Where would this space be? China is projecting power now and turning - albeit slowly - into a blue water navy. I would suggest, that if you are going to be bezzers with America, you ought to take seriously the fact that the war could come to you: Darwin ring any bells?

That type of thinking smacks of complacency and is what contributed to the RN taking a kicking in the South Atlantic several moons ago.

Pull up a map and start looking at the distances involved in getting stuff from China to Australia. It would be extremely difficult for China to project power to Australian waters, and they'd lose almost all their A2AD advantages in doing so.

Not to mention the first/second island chain buffers make it even more difficult than just distance would imply.

 

[Riga]

Pull up a map and start looking at the distances involved in getting stuff from China to Australia. It would be extremely difficult for China to project power to Australian waters, and they'd lose almost all their A2AD advantages in doing so.

Not to mention the first/second island chain buffers make it even more difficult than just distance would imply.

I have no wish of a slagging match but American carrier power is waning. Chinese power is growing and the Japanese were on the door step of Australia 60+ years ago. China, as I understand is not standing still at 1 carrier - it is aiming for several, should Australia then ally with America, it would be on the receiving end of Chinese wrath - the same Chinese who surface a sub in the middle of an American CBG causing just a slight WTF moment for all watching.

So, once more, I feel that the allied navies should be arming their vessels to the best of their abilities and not following the pre-Falklands War route of we only the built the ship to do this and now it is doing that, it is being sunk.

 

[Trackmaster]

All appears to have gone very quiet regarding the Canberra.
From what I recall, the original delivery timetable has slipped.
Were glitches discovered on the run up to Sydney and back...or is there truth in the story about work being dragged out to keep the pay slips flowing?
Or are things progressing as expected?

 

[StingrayOZ]

Found this article in the Australian, interesting but inevitable move, do recall there was some talk of this a couple of years ago.

Does this move effect the upcoming announcement of the Replenishment ship replacements ? Would the use of Biofuel require any design changes for them, also I would imagine maintenance programs would have to be adjusted, maybe possible mods for older equipment etc ?

Would be interested in peoples thoughts ?

Cheers

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

To use biofuels the modifications are not huge generally more about reliability and servicing. I believe the usn was going for a 10% blend, which most machinery can use without issue. Another issue would be ensuring water is managed, many biofuels are hydrophillic so absorb more water than regular fuels.

Might be more of an issue with non us aircraft (tigers?) and Diesel submarines.

 

[Zero Alpha]

All appears to have gone very quiet regarding the Canberra.
From what I recall, the original delivery timetable has slipped.
Were glitches discovered on the run up to Sydney and back...or is there truth in the story about work being dragged out to keep the pay slips flowing?
Or are things progressing as expected?

Blowing up a switchboard by operating it out of spec isn't a manufacturing stalling tactic.

 

[gf0012-aust]

To use biofuels the modifications are not huge generally more about reliability and servicing. I believe the usn was going for a 10% blend, which most machinery can use without issue. Another issue would be ensuring water is managed, many biofuels are hydrophillic so absorb more water than regular fuels.

Might be more of an issue with non us aircraft (tigers?) and Diesel submarines.

i worked on a project which evaluated gensets for both land and maritime a few years back

most of the issues were around seals, sealants, maint issues. modern engines can be electronically tuned etc, so the EMS can cope quite easily

 

[aussienscale]

i worked on a project which evaluated gensets for both land and maritime a few years back

most of the issues were around seals, sealants, maint issues. modern engines can be electronically tuned etc, so the EMS can cope quite easily

So older equipment could have issues similar to what the lowering of the sulphur levels in Diesel had a while back ? Leaking gaskets, reaction with sealants etc

Cheers

 

[gf0012-aust]

So older equipment could have issues similar to what the lowering of the sulphur levels in Diesel had a while back ? Leaking gaskets, reaction with sealants etc

Cheers

yep, modern engines should be relatively ok, but an ethanol mix can play havoc on things like injectors, seals etc...

you certainly wouldn't be able to do a fleet level switch without doing some serious engine/transmission specific assessment

 

[Bonza]

So, once more, I feel that the allied navies should be arming their vessels to the best of their abilities and not following the pre-Falklands War route of we only the built the ship to do this and now it is doing that, it is being sunk.

I honestly can't believe your reasoning on this topic leads you to comparisons with the Falklands. Explain to me how in a situation where a high value asset is deemed to be operating in a high risk environment, how some of the most advanced air defence equipment on the planet is going to... what, exactly? Do active radar SM-6 missiles not work for you? Do barrages of ESSMs from destroyers and frigates alike (in the case of the ANZACs being cued from some incredibly capable radar systems) somehow develop problems and fail to function?

All this is supposed to fail, and yet a 20mm Phalanx on an LHD is supposed to make the critical difference? How does that make sense?

This isn't 1982...

 

[RobWilliams]

That and the Type 42's were tailored for a certain threat (high flying Soviet bombers at 50k+ feet) rather than defending from low level attacks and sea skimming missiles which was not ideal.

Modern AWDs are effective at waaaaaaaay more target profiles.

 

[TheRealist]

All this is supposed to fail, and yet a 20mm Phalanx on an LHD is supposed to make the critical difference? How does that make sense?

It's called last ditch defence. Something I'm pretty sure the sailors on board the Canberra's would be quite keen for, one would imagine. SeaRAM or Millennium gun obviously being the preferred option.

 

[Tasman]

Where would this space be? China is projecting power now and turning - albeit slowly - into a blue water navy. I would suggest, that if you are going to be bezzers with America, you ought to take seriously the fact that the war could come to you: Darwin ring any bells?

.

The capacity of the Peoples Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) to project power, especially airpower, is in no way comparable with that of the Imperial Japanese Navy when Darwin was attacked in 1942. Off course war may come to our shores at some time in the future; history shows us that; but not in the short term.. Surely the main aim of the RAN at this point of time must be to build a balanced fleet that meets clearly defined long term goals and not waste resources by trying to arm every ship as though it is on continual deployment in a hot war zone. In the meantime the RAN's practice of upgrading the armament of ships on deployment; for example: CIWS, Mini Typhoon, and Harpoon, whilst keeping down manpower and maintenance costs for ships in home waters seems to me to be a sensible way to go.
Tas

 

[Bonza]

It's called last ditch defence. Something I'm pretty sure the sailors on board the Canberra's would be quite keen for, one would imagine. SeaRAM or Millennium gun obviously being the preferred option.

I understand this but my concern was the painting of a group of escorts as useless (and I realise you are not the poster that implied this) in a high threat scenario while advocating for a CIWS which is actually incredibly limited in capability compared to the collective defensive firepower of a coordinated escort group. Do you see where I'm coming from? More defensive firepower is better, I think we can all agree, but what I disagree with is this notion put forward by some that the LHDs are not survivable assets due to their lack of onboard CIWS while completely ignoring the details as to how and where they are deployed.

 

[StobieWan]

If we'd had Hobarts in the FI I think the Argentine forces would have thrown in the towel on day one...right after they'd taken 100% casualties on their first few attacks.

 

[TheRealist]

I understand this but my concern was the painting of a group of escorts as useless (and I realise you are not the poster that implied this) in a high threat scenario while advocating for a CIWS which is actually incredibly limited in capability compared to the collective defensive firepower of a coordinated escort group. Do you see where I'm coming from? More defensive firepower is better, I think we can all agree, but what I disagree with is this notion put forward by some that the LHDs are not survivable assets due to their lack of onboard CIWS while completely ignoring the details as to how and where they are deployed.

I totally agree with you. The assets that will be escorting the Canberra's in most situations will be formidable to say the least.

 

[Volkodav]

The LHDs can be fitted with Phalanx fairly rapidly if required, Sea RAM or Millennium with longer lead time, or they could even be retrofitted with RAM, Sea Ceptor or ESSM and ASMD with more time. None of this is unachievable and would likely occur fairly rapidly should the strategic situation dictate.

On the other hand the RAN being able to acquire additional surface combatants, submarines or helicopters at short notice is far more problematical, either they have them or they don't. Individual, bolt on capabilities are quick and easy to sort out, major platform and combat system related ones are time consuming and expensive so I would much rather those difficult boxes be ticked in peace time than the easy ones as there will likely not be time otherwise.

 

[Riga]

I honestly can't believe your reasoning on this topic leads you to comparisons with the Falklands. Explain to me how in a situation where a high value asset is deemed to be operating in a high risk environment, how some of the most advanced air defence equipment on the planet is going to... what, exactly? Do active radar SM-6 missiles not work for you? Do barrages of ESSMs from destroyers and frigates alike (in the case of the ANZACs being cued from some incredibly capable radar systems) somehow develop problems and fail to function?

All this is supposed to fail, and yet a 20mm Phalanx on an LHD is supposed to make the critical difference? How does that make sense?

This isn't 1982...

I have no suggested that a Phalanx is going to make a difference. My point was that the ocean will not be quite so big as one might think if facing a future Chinese threat.