Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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buglerbilly

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Getting back to 'non-experts' making the occasional post. Remember 'sparky', one thing he advocated was simpler lighter COIN aircraft, he also advoated light armourned tracked vehicles. What is happening several years later... the US air force is looking at turboprop light attack aircraft because they are cheaper to run compared with fast jets. The British Army is building new 'light tanks' based on the Scorpion tank hull (albeit with 30mm cannons, not 76mm) and not building the 30t to 40t FRES projects they were contemplating. So perhaps in these 2 things Sparky was right. My point is that a 'non-expert' can sometimes have valid things to say
Nope Britain isn't doing that and most certainly NOT based on Scorpions or any other member of the CV(R)T family. They are procuring ONE element of the FRES programme to replace Scorpion and its associate family members with a glorified ASCOD IFV modified to suit the Recon primary role.

One of the parameters for ASCOD for the Scout role is this:

• Load-carrying potential of up to 42 tonnes with a growth path to 45 tonnes, which provides the ability to meet future threats likely to appear over its entire 30-year life, as well as carry its heaviest variants.
With regards to Mr Sparks, he "may" have something useful to say one time, and that's arguable, but he declined to bizarre and random exclamations of his own lunatic making and lost all reality in the process.

As far more eloquently put by GF and others, COLLINS has its own problems but comparing it to 214/212 or any of the other German designs is a nonsense, the design parameters are completely different.

Regards,

B
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Just posting this message in an attempt to change notification type for this thread. Just got my PC up and running since Xmas as my office was inundated due to extreme rain and I have a million messages from this thread totally spamming my inbox out.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
If you've read about Collins then you'll also have read that smaller sub designs had limits in the tropics, something that Kockums never appreciated until too late, they didn't factor in power demands (air-cond, sensor suite demands, combat suite demands etc...)
Even in newr subs like the Scorpene, to conserve battery power supply there will be times when the A/C or some screens in the CMS will have to be switched off.

small subs look good on paper. For Australian and NZ, for the many reasons stated in this thread, it would not make sense to go for anything smaller than a Collins.

the reality when you factor in pacrim, indian ocean and sth china sea conditions is different.
I think it really depends on the operational requirements of the end user. Bigger subs certainly offer advantages in range, endurance, internal space, etc, but are more expensive to buy and operate. I can think of a few countries that can afford SSK's in the same weight class as the Collins or Upholder but might have the operational requirements that call for a smaller sub like the Type 214. I think it will be interesting to see if in the future Russian SSK designers come with with a design smaller than the Kilo or Armur for the export market.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think it really depends on the operational requirements of the end user. Bigger subs certainly offer advantages in range, endurance, internal space, etc, but are more expensive to buy and operate. I can think of a few countries that can afford SSK's in the same weight class as the Collins or Upholder but might have the operational requirements that call for a smaller sub like the Type 214.
I think that's kind of the point being made. Operational requirements encompass more than just range. It's not "type 214 can travel x miles, therefore type 214 is appropriate for x user", as could be inferred from previous posts.
 
the remark about sparky was a bit of light humour, I read his webpages, but am not overly familiar with what he wrote in this forum.

My memory is a bit hazy, but my thinking was that the British were building more relatively light armoured vehicles, and putting off the heavier armoured vehicles. I thought it was the scorpion family, but apparently it is the ascod vehicles. My point was that annoying as he was (I did not read a lot of what he wrote in this forum, apparently he was very rude?) but he did seem to make a few good points. The main point was that he was advocating light tracked armour, something that the British are doing now. A little example, using more M113s in Iraq might have been better than using unarmoured Humvees was one of his ideas.

I am not an expert on what Sparky wrote in this forum, I can only remember a few posts vaguely from several years ago. I did not get involved in the discussion.

If Sparky was really really annoying, well I did not realise how bad he apparently was. I did not want to bring up bad memories, my apologies to anyone if bringing up his name upsets people.

I guess what narks me a little bit, is that I have a full time job (paint chemistry), and defence issues are just one thing I take a small interest in. Sometimes in these threads, there seems to be a downputting of people that dont know as much as others. I guess if I was so inclined I could spend hundreds and hundreds of hours reading about defence issues and become semi knowledgeable, but I have other things to do.

I read a couple weeks ago, that a Mr *** Babbage was advocating us getting nuclear subs, my thinking was that would cost a fortune.

It is sometimes hard for those that do not spend a huge amount of time on this forum to make a post without getting chewed out. The feeling is that we get spoken down to. I might make a post once every 6 months.

Are we obliged to become super informed before making a single post? How many months or years of reading to be have to do before we are allowed to write a single comment?

My thinking was adjusted by reading a book about the Collins class submarines. From the book it seems they took a long time to get right and a cost a lot of money. I just dont want the same thing to happen again. There seemed to be a few years there when we had no particularly useful subs (this is from memory and may not be correct). It would be bad if the same thing happened again.

It may be that Australia 'needs' to have a purpose designed conventional sub. My point was that just maybe going for the best commerically available conventionally powered sub in the world (214, scorpene, other) might be worth considering too, (based on what happened with the Collins class).

I floated the idea of extending the range of existing subs, it might sound odd, it might not work, it was a thinking out loud idea nothing more.

Here is a hypothetical, we choose to develop our own unique submarine class again. They turn out to cost heaps more than what is available 'off the shelf'. Then technical issues delay their introduction. Before the replacement subs are ready, the Collins class is retired. In that meantime we get into a nasty war with no operational subs.. could be a big problem.

Is this scenario likely? no. But based on past history this possibility cant be dissmissed entirely.

Anyway, I am back to doing R and D for the paints for Colorbond steel tomorrow (should keep me out of trouble)
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
the remark about sparky was a bit of light humour, I read his webpages, but am not overly familiar with what he wrote in this forum.

My memory is a bit hazy, but my thinking was that the British were building more relatively light armoured vehicles, and putting off the heavier armoured vehicles. I thought it was the scorpion family, but apparently it is the ascod vehicles. My point was that annoying as he was (I did not read a lot of what he wrote in this forum, apparently he was very rude?) but he did seem to make a few good points. The main point was that he was advocating light tracked armour, something that the British are doing now. A little example, using more M113s in Iraq might have been better than using unarmoured Humvees was one of his ideas.

I am not an expert on what Sparky wrote in this forum, I can only remember a few posts vaguely from several years ago. I did not get involved in the discussion.

If Sparky was really really annoying, well I did not realise how bad he apparently was. I did not want to bring up bad memories, my apologies to anyone if bringing up his name upsets people.

I guess what narks me a little bit, is that I have a full time job (paint chemistry), and defence issues are just one thing I take a small interest in. Sometimes in these threads, there seems to be a downputting of people that dont know as much as others. I guess if I was so inclined I could spend hundreds and hundreds of hours reading about defence issues and become semi knowledgeable, but I have other things to do.

I read a couple weeks ago, that a Mr *** Babbage was advocating us getting nuclear subs, my thinking was that would cost a fortune.

It is sometimes hard for those that do not spend a huge amount of time on this forum to make a post without getting chewed out. The feeling is that we get spoken down to. I might make a post once every 6 months.

Are we obliged to become super informed before making a single post? How many months or years of reading to be have to do before we are allowed to write a single comment?

My thinking was adjusted by reading a book about the Collins class submarines. From the book it seems they took a long time to get right and a cost a lot of money. I just dont want the same thing to happen again. There seemed to be a few years there when we had no particularly useful subs (this is from memory and may not be correct). It would be bad if the same thing happened again.

It may be that Australia 'needs' to have a purpose designed conventional sub. My point was that just maybe going for the best commerically available conventionally powered sub in the world (214, scorpene, other) might be worth considering too, (based on what happened with the Collins class).

I floated the idea of extending the range of existing subs, it might sound odd, it might not work, it was a thinking out loud idea nothing more.

Here is a hypothetical, we choose to develop our own unique submarine class again. They turn out to cost heaps more than what is available 'off the shelf'. Then technical issues delay their introduction. Before the replacement subs are ready, the Collins class is retired. In that meantime we get into a nasty war with no operational subs.. could be a big problem.

Is this scenario likely? no. But based on past history this possibility cant be dissmissed entirely.

Anyway, I am back to doing R and D for the paints for Colorbond steel tomorrow (should keep me out of trouble)
No-one demands or expects anything of anyone in this forum, apart from the rules we have put in place and within those rules you are free to post whatever your opinion may be on a particular topic.

Of course so is everyone else on the board too. If you feel you are being "chewed out" then perhaps the tone of your original post may have something to do with that? I say this in my (admittedly) now part time role as a Mod and though I haven't read the post that you made and am only inferring from what others have written, I suspect you probably needed some educating in relation to the Collins and it's follow-on and why RAN says that existing off the shelf submarines do not meet their requirements.

If you are really interested in this topic, then I commend this book to you. It's well worth the read and gives some insight into what RAN actually does with it's submarines and why they say it needs to meet certain requirements, requirements which rule out any current offering.

The Collins Class Submarine: Steel, Spies and Spin

Regards,

AD
 

Jhom

New Member
The Canberra is going to be launched today! plus i just read something about an S-80 XXL to be discussed tomorrow betwen the aussie delegation and Navantia...
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Canberra is going to be launched today! plus i just read something about an S-80 XXL to be discussed tomorrow betwen the aussie delegation and Navantia...
It will be launched on the 17th their time, so the 18th for us around 6pm tomorrow IIRC ?

Do you have a link or reference for the S80 ? If you can't post links yet you can still type it out or PM it to me and I will post for you. There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of an enlarged version of the S80, but to be honest I think this is mostly a marketing ploy from Navantia, as has been discussed numerous times on the thread the Euro subs just don't cut it for the RAN requirements

Cheers
 

SASWanabe

Member
It will be launched on the 17th their time, so the 18th for us around 6pm tomorrow IIRC ?

Do you have a link or reference for the S80 ? If you can't post links yet you can still type it out or PM it to me and I will post for you. There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of an enlarged version of the S80, but to be honest I think this is mostly a marketing ploy from Navantia, as has been discussed numerous times on the thread the Euro subs just don't cut it for the RAN requirements

Cheers
i was under the impession that we were 9 hours ahead of them... so 1am tonight (tommorow morning) for us
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
i was under the impession that we were 9 hours ahead of them... so 1am tonight (tommorow morning) for us

0100 EST for QLD
0200 for EDT. (+10 Hours)

They could of done it earlier to catch the 6pm news over here, poor PR by the Def. Dep.
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Canberra is going to be launched today! plus i just read something about an S-80 XXL to be discussed tomorrow betwen the aussie delegation and Navantia...
Its proberly worthwhile to look at the S-80 again and what Navantia can do for us. But I don't think it will go any further than some interesting chats, the S-80 is not what we need and should get. We have already been over the XXL ground with the Collins, we had tenders from several and Kockups was the best, and we went with that. Honestly all said and done, why would we go through the same process again.

The S-80 uses a AIP (ethanol) which requires a larger submarine to get the most out of it, so there may be some overlap depending on what size they want to build future varients.

DCNS and Natavia have broken up their relationship, so I would imagine would be looking for another project partner.

Brazil went for an enlarged Scorpene without AIP and are now looking at small nuclear submarines. Canada was looking at buying 10-12 Rubis submarines in the 80's.

I think we are better off partnering up with a good builder and building something to our requirements. That builder could be some one like Natavia, EB, GD, DCNS etc. Obviously some of those would be ruled out very quickly. Proberly with ASC.. It may even be several involved.

My personal thoughts, I think we are better off with a massive diesel (~4,000+t). 8 VLS, dismounted weapons(UUV, smart mines etc), fuel and food stores, photonics mast simular to virginias and dedicated specials abilities and areas.
 
0100 EST for QLD
0200 for EDT. (+10 Hours)

They could of done it earlier to catch the 6pm news over here, poor PR by the Def. Dep.
I think it has to do more with tides than PR, Safety first!! Ferrol for Thursday.

Remember also Adelaide keel ceremony on the 18th

HW 15:31 hours 3.89 m , LW 21:31 hours 0.48 m UTC +1



Regards
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think it has to do more with tides than PR, Safety first!! Ferrol for Thursday.

Regards
Good call and agree 100%,,,,, add to that prevailing winds and chop. You don't really want the ship to skew and chop (bounce) at the end of the ramp. The ship will be bourne by the bow when she takes the water as the buoyancy up thurst drives the bow down as the stern lifts, conditions must be suitable.

In high winds even if she does not bounce whe will sail with the wind and needs to be managable by tugs.
 
Good call and agree 100%,,,,, add to that prevailing winds and chop. You don't really want the ship to skew and chop (bounce) at the end of the ramp. The ship will be bourne by the bow when she takes the water as the buoyancy up thurst drives the bow down as the stern lifts, conditions must be suitable.

In high winds even if she does not bounce whe will sail with the wind and needs to be managable by tugs.
ferrol map - Google Maps


North up on the map, winds West-North West 11 knots, I guess they have... about 6 Canberra lengths to stop it . I want to watch it but, I will not be able until tonight Spanish time.
Good luck!

Regards
 

Sea Toby

New Member
ferrol map - Google Maps


North up on the map, winds West-North West 11 knots, I guess they have... about 6 Canberra lengths to stop it . I want to watch it but, I will not be able until tonight Spanish time.
Good luck!

Regards
Hopefully someone will post a YouTube video of the event before the day is done... It will be a bit strange not to see her without any superstructure, but that will have to wait until she gets to Melbourne... Nothing like a christening/launching day at a shipyard...
 
First video! wrong format but video never the less!
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpVa6p6OH3I&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - Botadura del LHD Canberra[/nomedia]
 
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