Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for the answer. So will OP be they employed in similar role for border protection, if so why the difference?

I must have missed that - GoA has already purchased (awaiting delivery) specialised rescue vessels. Commercially built, but RAN manned or commercial/ US specialists?
The OP and OS are much less flexible than a dedicated OPV from an aviation perspective. They are MUCH larger and carry a larger crew and more RHIBs. Their ability to accept a 'turreted' gun is compromised by their lay out.

They are very good for a persistent presence in an area given their endurance which is what they have, and will be, used for in respect of border control and fisheries protection but ........ In the all round role the OPV will provide a better platform noting you would not want to consider OS or OP for anti piracy work where an OPV is perfect for it.

Finally OS and OP cost a hell of a lot more to run.

As for submarine rescue.... As indicated in my post they are operated by DMS ..... This is a commercial organisation which is a subsidiary of SERCO. So full civilian operations and subject to the same rules as any other trading ship.

Weirdly enough so do all customs vessels (Australian Border Force Cutters) which is challenging for the administration. However, as government - non commercial vessels they are relieved of some compliance requirements. Border Force do have the ability to put more of this in their own hands through a management plan adopted through the Navigation Regulations 2013. ...... Probably more information than you needed
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
On the OPVs:

If we went for a fleet of the same design but different sizes how would that effect the build? (tooling, Jigs etc). Shouldn't effect training to much as same systems etc

Nothing to indicate this but....

For example:

9 x Damen OPV-2 1800 or Damen OPV-2 1400
(bulk of EEZ patrol work)
2 x Damen OPV-2 2400 (as required)
1 x Damen OPV- 2 2600 ( which as required could support the LHD with Mine countermeasures,hydrographic survey and general security while on long range deployment)

Also:

Isn't the Austral MRV 80 meters in length?
Ok, why go for the 1400 when the 1800 is in the ball park and offers a bit more. However, before we get too excited we need to remember that there are a number of offering in the wings for this one including the Navantia Advate family.

Yes the MTV-80 is 80m but it would be operationally limited and I thing the current aversion to aluminium (fragile) hulls may count against it.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
put them on the bridge of a modern cruise ship and they would go into shock - let alone a naval vessel

An even better example is a DP2 OSV. If you are wondering what may be used for hydrography in the future vessels with these capabilities (which means they can hold position or navigate a very specific path) may explain the civil/military approach to hydrography.
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for the answer. So will OP be they employed in similar role for border protection, if so why the difference?

I must have missed that - GoA has already purchased (awaiting delivery) specialised rescue vessels. Commercially built, but RAN manned or commercial/ US specialists?
Stoker & Besant have both been delivered & currently alongside at Stirling.
As far as I am aware, owned by GOA but operated & maintained by DMS.
 
The OP and OS are much less flexible than a dedicated OPV from an aviation perspective. They are MUCH larger and carry a larger crew and more RHIBs. Their ability to accept a 'turreted' gun is compromised by their lay out.

They are very good for a persistent presence in an area given their endurance which is what they have, and will be, used for in respect of border control and fisheries protection but ........ In the all round role the OPV will provide a better platform noting you would not want to consider OS or OP for anti piracy work where an OPV is perfect for it.

Finally OS and OP cost a hell of a lot more to run.

As for submarine rescue.... As indicated in my post they are operated by DMS ..... This is a commercial organisation which is a subsidiary of SERCO. So full civilian operations and subject to the same rules as any other trading ship.

Weirdly enough so do all customs vessels (Australian Border Force Cutters) which is challenging for the administration. However, as government - non commercial vessels they are relieved of some compliance requirements. Border Force do have the ability to put more of this in their own hands through a management plan adopted through the Navigation Regulations 2013. ...... Probably more information than you needed
Just a strange fit the pair, if not used in other roles (even at a later date re-roled). I know OS worked through the MH-370 accident with bluefin sidescan sonar. I'll have to change my opinion on the utilisation of these sisters. (400m NOK for OP purchase too)
Stoker & Besant have both been delivered & currently alongside at Stirling.
As far as I am aware, owned by GOA but operated & maintained by DMS.
Cheers to both of you for response.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Stoker & Besant have both been delivered & currently alongside at Stirling.
As far as I am aware, owned by GOA but operated & maintained by DMS.
Owned by the NAB bank as indicated on the Australian register of ships. This is a relationship with the GoA but they are not owned by the government. Certainly in country but my understanding is they are not yet fully ready for the task.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ok, why go for the 1400 when the 1800 is in the ball park and offers a bit more. However, before we get too excited we need to remember that there are a number of offering in the wings for this one including the Navantia Advate family.

Yes the MTV-80 is 80m but it would be operationally limited and I thing the current aversion to aluminium (fragile) hulls may count against it.
I think the Damen 1800/Advate 1800 (non combat) is probably what we are looking at. It seems to have all the basics covered with out being too onerous in crewing or other aspects.

I think the reactivation of the Huons, is more to buy time more than anything else. They aren't completely knackered, where our patrol boats are certainly heading down that path. Also the technologies are still developing so probably a reasonable bet to hold out another 5-10 years before completely replacing them.

It the rolling of all the duties into one multipurpose platform that will drive size up. If you want a better survey ship than our 2000t ones your probably wanting to go bigger again (eg HMS echo is 3700t without a hanger).

It may be worth replacing the survey and mine ships with 2500t or larger platforms. These could then operate as very long range patrol ships. This would give us say 4-6 larger ships.


This seems to fit whats was being pitched last year
Pacific 2015: Navantia proposes Avante range for Australia's SEA 1180 | IHS Jane's 360

The 1400 and the 3000.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Let's go back to the original scope of SEA 1180 in the 2009 DWP, it was to procure a class of 20 'identical' ships to replace 26 ships of four separate classes. The only differences would be by using various mission modules to achieve the task required of this class of ships.

The basic spec for these ships was to be 'up to' 2000t and to potentially have the ability to embark a helicopter or UAV's. A ship of similar capability to match that spec would be for example (but not limited to), the Damen OPV 1800, which is 83m and 1890t (according to the spec sheet) and has an aviation capability too.


Roll forward four years to the 2013 DWP, the Gillard Government put SEA 1180, as proposed in the 2009 DWP on the back burner. The plan was to replace the 14 ACPB's with another class of PB's (sooner rather than later), possible candidate could have been a version of the Cape Class PB's for example. The MCM and Hydrographic ships would have their lives extended until a longer term solution could be delivered.


Roll forward a bit further to now, the 2016 DWP, and we have a situation somewhere in between (say 2/3rds) the way of the original plan, 12 OPV's to replace the 14 ACPB's, (pretty good result in my opinion), the MCM's will be upgraded to operate until the 2030's (and who knows, the various 'remote' systems of the future may mean that some additional OPV's could end up being ordered too, the Government keeps talking about 'continuous' shipbuilding, etc). And lastly the Hydrographic fleet, the DWP says that a 'mixed' solution of Military and Commercial capabilities (whatever that means?) will replace the Hydro fleet, and they talk about 'modular' systems, could also point to some RAN ship having that modular system, (more of the same OPV's?), who knows?

Anyway, so much for the history of where we've been and where we are now over the last three DWP's.


So back to the here and now, I still don't understand why you would want to change a single class of 12 ships into 12 ships of three different classes?

Having a mixed fleet of 12 ships (to replace one class) is going in the complete opposite direction of the original SEA 1180 of having one class of 20 to replace four classes of 26 ships.

You said: "given how similar (or identical) the systems would be between 1800 - 2400/2600 the transition or progression of sailors across the vessels and associated training burden - is not out of reach"

But having had a look at the specs of the 1800, 2400 and 2600, shows that they have different main engines and auxiliary power generation equipment for example, and that's only the very very thin edge of the wedge.

Instead of '12 of everything' we would now be talking 'nine of this, two of another, and one of another', what is the cost of all of that??

If the Government is saying that currently we are going to have a class of 12 identical OPV's operating at one end of the spectrum and at the other end of the spectrum, the big guns (the AWD's and Frigates), well I'm satisfied with that to have that distinction between their various roles.

But if sometime in the future, say in the next five years, we end up with an update of the DWP or IIP (as may well happen), then if there is a need for a capability that sits somewhere in the middle, then maybe then it's time to look at a new or different class of ships to fill that potential void.

It might be called a Patrol Frigate or a Littoral Combat Ship (and not suggesting any designs if such a requirement was to appear), let's address it then and there.

At the very least it might be worth recovering and storing the various weapons and sensors from the FFG's and eventually Anzac's for potential future use (that's if the cost of recovering, storing and eventually refurbishing that equipment was worth the effort).

As you said, nothing is set in concrete, all true, but I don't think we have to start inventing new OPV roles above and beyond what is currently planned.

Cheers,
A very good synopsis John, about the only thing I would add is that with a class of twelve to be built over several years it is possible that they will be ordered in two or three batches, or even just changing requirements and obsolescence issues could see some significant differences between the first several and last several boats.

Wait and see, I just desperately hope they don't repeat the Armidale mistake that made all the various issues worse, they banged them out as quickly as they could, problems and all, so by the time issues were coming to light it was too late to fix them in later boats. They did the same thing with the Capes, even completing and mothballing boats ahead of schedule so they could send their welders back to the Philippines and lay off contract staff, the complete opposite of a continuous build.

This is ironic as with the twelve, plus two, Armidales, then eight (now ten Capes), you could even add the proceeding Bay class to this and you have the perfect makings of a continuous build, 30 similar, evolving hulls in 16 years, now to be 32 in 18. Instead they bang them out, warts and all before virtually shutting operations down and crying poor to the WA mafia, when with number like those they could have fully costed and presented a continuous build to CoA with batches of four every four years, first boat takes a bit longer than the rest but then the other follow rapidly until the next update to the design.

Agreed that there does appear to be a gap between the destroyers/ frigates and the patrol forces. I am so glad we are maintaining numbers at twelve, rather than dropping them to eleven but the fact they are all high end does suggest there is room for something below them. The DCP post retirement of Melbourne was for eight high end guided missile ships, eight patrol frigates and (assumed) eight to twelve OPC corvettes with Sea Sparrow and a 57mm gun plus planned armed helicopter. So twenty years on we are looking at an infinitely more capable than planned top tier with 50% more hulls and similar size of vessel but less capability than planned lower tier likely with more hulls, though it would be nice to have a middle where would the money come from, so over all not too bad. Still hoping for something sexy using pulled through systems though.

Fingers crossed for the future.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think the reactivation of the Huons, is more to buy time more than anything else. They aren't completely knackered, where our patrol boats are certainly heading down that path. Also the technologies are still developing so probably a reasonable bet to hold out another 5-10 years before completely replacing them.
.

The only two deactivated ships are Hawksbury and Norman, the rest are in commission and operational.
The DWP talks about maintaining and updating only four MHC's. I'm guessing the 2 left out will be disposed of. Maybe the Kiwis?;)
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
.

The only two deactivated ships are Hawksbury and Norman, the rest are in commission and operational.
The DWP talks about maintaining and updating only four MHC's. I'm guessing the 2 left out will be disposed of. Maybe the Kiwis?;)
Great hulls, they will easily outlast anything else in the fleet unless they are deliberately cut up and buried in landfill. This issue is there low speed and the great distances they need to cover, shame really as they would have been perfectly suitable deployed, singly or in pairs to keep ports and choke points open, just not so useful for supporting expeditionary activities. This is why the USN has fitted ROVs to some DDGs and are keen on the LCS.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Great hulls, they will easily outlast anything else in the fleet unless they are deliberately cut up and buried in landfill. This issue is there low speed and the great distances they need to cover, shame really as they would have been perfectly suitable deployed, singly or in pairs to keep ports and choke points open, just not so useful for supporting expeditionary activities. This is why the USN has fitted ROVs to some DDGs and are keen on the LCS.
Agree, no use for expeditionary work but still good for constabulary EEZ work. At 14 kts they are fast enough for this although there reaction time is slower. They are fast by us plebeian small commercial standards.
They could be stripped of their specialist gear and be useful for some Pacific jurisdiction or they could continue to support Op Resolute until the OPVs take over. They could also be useful to supplement the peacetime hydrographic effort.
One thing is certain, they will outlast the ACPBs and the Capes and it seems a great shame get rid of two of them early if that is the plan.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
.

The only two deactivated ships are Hawksbury and Norman, the rest are in commission and operational.
The DWP talks about maintaining and updating only four MHC's. I'm guessing the 2 left out will be disposed of. Maybe the Kiwis?;)
Yeah, but are they big enough to deploy a Tiger from?!

While the intent is appreciated, I'm doubtful that the various ex-Aussie platforms mentioned on this forum will fit into NZ's own defence planning.

Our own '2015 White Paper" is expected within weeks according to the Minister. While I'm expecting a pretty tame affair compared to Australia's big spend-up, it will hopefully shed some light on future equipment replacements and funding.

For anti-mine duties, the current plan is to roll hydrography, mine warfare and dive support into a single largish vessel, currently dubbed the Littoral Operations Support Capability. (LOSC). Two RFIs have already been issued, and it should go to tender sometime next year, unless the White Paper decides differently.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Going back to OPVs for a minute, the Damen 1800 Sea Axe looks quite good. Given what Alexsa has said about Sea Axe bows and their advantages, in a way on its own, it's almost a no brainer. However the basic ships complement of 60 appears to be a bit high for something of that size. The RNZN Protector Class OPVs are of similar size and have a basic complement of 35, so where do these extra bods come in - does it include the aviation component? Or hasn't the ship been as fully automated as the Protector Class OPVs? Apart from that and what ever its cost will be, I think it would be a good candidate for the Australian OPV project and for a NZ sub variant of the Australian build, if it could be relatively easily ice strengthened. So that could be another four ships over the course of the first cycle of the rolling build.
 

Alf662

New Member
Going back to OPVs for a minute, the Damen 1800 Sea Axe looks quite good. Given what Alexsa has said about Sea Axe bows and their advantages, in a way on its own, it's almost a no brainer. However the basic ships complement of 60 appears to be a bit high for something of that size. The RNZN Protector Class OPVs are of similar size and have a basic complement of 35, so where do these extra bods come in - does it include the aviation component? Or hasn't the ship been as fully automated as the Protector Class OPVs? Apart from that and what ever its cost will be, I think it would be a good candidate for the Australian OPV project and for a NZ sub variant of the Australian build, if it could be relatively easily ice strengthened. So that could be another four ships over the course of the first cycle of the rolling build.
Could be a documentation error. The website quotes a crew of 46
Offshore Patrol Vessel 1800 Sea Axe

Whilst the Brochure quotes a crew of 60 (core complement capacity), and an additional 36 multi-role complement.
http://products.damen.com/~/media/P...re_Damen_Offshore_Patrol_Vessels_04_2015.ashx

I think 46 would be the normal ships company, if this included the air crew component then it could be less.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Going back to OPVs for a minute, the Damen 1800 Sea Axe looks quite good. Given what Alexsa has said about Sea Axe bows and their advantages, in a way on its own, it's almost a no brainer. However the basic ships complement of 60 appears to be a bit high for something of that size. The RNZN Protector Class OPVs are of similar size and have a basic complement of 35, so where do these extra bods come in - does it include the aviation component? Or hasn't the ship been as fully automated as the Protector Class OPVs? Apart from that and what ever its cost will be, I think it would be a good candidate for the Australian OPV project and for a NZ sub variant of the Australian build, if it could be relatively easily ice strengthened. So that could be another four ships over the course of the first cycle of the rolling build.
Would there be a significant difference in crew size between, whether the ship was fitted out as an OCV or OPV. The Damen website is saying 46, your 60 may be for a OCV. Certainly a OCV would have a higher number of specialists to operate weapon systems. I also wonder what sort of price difference is there between the Sea Axe design and the regular Damen 1800.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Going back to OPVs for a minute, the Damen 1800 Sea Axe looks quite good. Given what Alexsa has said about Sea Axe bows and their advantages, in a way on its own, it's almost a no brainer. However the basic ships complement of 60 appears to be a bit high for something of that size. The RNZN Protector Class OPVs are of similar size and have a basic complement of 35, so where do these extra bods come in - does it include the aviation component? Or hasn't the ship been as fully automated as the Protector Class OPVs? Apart from that and what ever its cost will be, I think it would be a good candidate for the Australian OPV project and for a NZ sub variant of the Australian build, if it could be relatively easily ice strengthened. So that could be another four ships over the course of the first cycle of the rolling build.
Extra crew could be a variety of things including accommodation space that isn't necessarily used. Then there are ships boats, on the Armidales the crew includes two boarding parties which aren't required on boats in Cairns. Crews can be beefed up with trainees and larger vessels also can justify, if not actually need extra maintenance personnel. On an OPV you would have the space so could probably justify having two full 11 person boarding parties and double the engineering sailors just to make the ships easier and safer to operate as well as to provide adequate training and mentoring billets.
 

Alf662

New Member
Would there be a significant difference in crew size between, whether the ship was fitted out as an OCV or OPV. The Damen website is saying 46, your 60 may be for a OCV. Certainly a OCV would have a higher number of specialists to operate weapon systems. I also wonder what sort of price difference is there between the Sea Axe design and the regular Damen 1800.
We will probably never know the price difference, but from a commercial point of view I would expect it to be little bit more (just my opinion). The Sea Axe hull form is very fuel efficient and any operator would recover any additional outlay in their operating costs, this could add up to quite a significant figure when you consider the number of vessels involved.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
However the basic ships complement of 60 appears to be a bit high for something of that size. The RNZN Protector Class OPVs are of similar size and have a basic complement of 35, so where do these extra bods come in - does it include the aviation component? Or hasn't the ship been as fully automated as the Protector Class OPVs? Apart from that and what ever its cost will be, I think it would be a good candidate for the Australian OPV project and for a NZ sub variant of the Australian build, if it could be relatively easily ice strengthened. So that could be another four ships over the course of the first cycle of the rolling build.
According to their website, it says a crew of 46. Where did you get the figure 60?
See...
Offshore Patrol Vessel 1800 Sea Axe
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
As stated in Alfs post above looks like it could be an error in documentation. I used the data from the PDF brochure.
Either way its a very impressive design, I particularly like the multi mission bay and RHIB arrangements (which I assume could be easily adapted for fast interceptor craft or a CB90 type craft ). The space for containers and the hatches for deploying VDS, ROVs etc. ranks this design closer to the 2010 DWP OCV. The 26kt speed, medium gun (what is it, a LO 57 or 76mm or a shielded 25-40mm?) and extensive aviation facilities makes it look more like the 1996 OPC/corvette, just add RAM/SeaRAM / Seaceptor or Phalanx and the harpoons from the ANZACs and you have a nifty little, if not combatant, at least deployable MCM/Hydro/SOF/Marine platform, a virtual mini LCS for not very much outlay at all.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top