Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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rockitten

Member
Like +2

plus.... what about ourselves Aussies? or the Japanese?
:)
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In my experiences, the Japanese usually pay lots of attentions to minor details on their products, from the design, the spec down to QC. About 10 years ago when I was making OEM parts for cars, many minor defects on parts will be a reject in Toyota but will be a pass in Ford and Holden.
 
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Wooki

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
reminds me of my negotiation skills training when I was contracting...

its been said before but to recap

  • the swedes can't understand why you think you're being screwed
  • the germans can perfectly explain in technical terms why you're being screwed
  • the french seduce you into thinking that you wanted to be screwed and that you were fully aware of it so they're not responsible
  • the poms will go off and argue that screwing you wasn't identified and that its now a contract variation - and as you raised the issue you get to pay for it
  • the americans give you what you want but then add a fortune to upgrades and then delay them anyway so that they always stay 2 software generations ahead. by the time you rake uo the cash for the upgrades, they're now 4 generations ahead and you've lost interoperability...

and there are variations of the above.

no disrespect intended for non-oz members from the above countries, but there's a whole pile of truth in some of the above statements :)
Hey GF-ster,

Australia finally wants to buy submarines???? Why don't you give me the contract and none of the above will happen. It goes like this:

  1. Contract
  2. Acquisition
  3. Culture change
  4. Product delivered under time and under budget

next question?

The key is Industrial Performance Leader skills. None of you guys have it, None of the current crop in the US Defense Industry has it either. The Japanese MIGHT have the kernels for it and here in is how you define it.

[Evidence of whether a group might have it (or not) might be having a track record of a product delivered under budget and under time]

Industrial Performance-Leader skills might be the ability to seek out risk, analyze it and then systematically disassemble that risk. Managers on the other hand might seek out risk, analyze it and then create a risk mitigation strategy so that they can live with it.

That will be 300 USD as it took me 3 minutes to write.

cheers

W
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
2015 White Paper

The front page leader of the Weekend Australian is an exclusive (leaks) about the content of the upcoming DWP, along with the usual whack at the government for ignoring News Limited's advice.

Anyway...new builds

8 Submarines, option maybe for four more in the future
9 Frigates
10 OCV/OPV with four? "multirole" versions down the track

No mention of the bread and butter stuff like tankers, LCH replacements and so on because they don't fit the narrative about spending everything on Navy to protect against China, while leaving the Army with half as much armour as they expected.

And...the accusation that the reason the DWP will now be released in November is because the Government shipbuilding plan changed the entire basis of the DWP.

(EDIT: This is portrayed as a large expansion of Navy, which I'd suggest is bollocks)

oldsig
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The key is Industrial Performance Leader skills. None of you guys have it, None of the current crop in the US Defense Industry has it either. The Japanese MIGHT have the kernels for it and here in is how you define it.
the best performing sub construction program in the world was based on japanese development and build models.... (something that has been conveniently ignored by some of the "bleeders" dribbling their opinions to the politicians in the State Govts (especially to Xenophon)

I'm less stressed about building once selected, my principle concern is politicians making capability decisions to protect state interests.

once again, it will be acquisition based on electoral security and less about capability requirements and what is in the best interests of Defence. and unfort that is unavoidable.

you're undercharging on your consultancy fees - my contracted rate when I left Govt was $1500 page in 1998. Naturally I saw bugger all of that as 70% was picked up by the company - so the balance went to me.

I've recently seen invoices of $5k for a 2 page report. :) It's great if you can get it! Am almost tempted to head back into contracting.....
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The front page leader of the Weekend Australian is an exclusive (leaks) about the content of the upcoming DWP, along with the usual whack at the government for ignoring News Limited's advice.

Anyway...new builds

8 Submarines, option maybe for four more in the future
9 Frigates
10 OCV/OPV with four? "multirole" versions down the track

No mention of the bread and butter stuff like tankers, LCH replacements and so on because they don't fit the narrative about spending everything on Navy to protect against China, while leaving the Army with half as much armour as they expected.

And...the accusation that the reason the DWP will now be released in November is because the Government shipbuilding plan changed the entire basis of the DWP.

(EDIT: This is portrayed as a large expansion of Navy, which I'd suggest is bollocks)

oldsig
If all this is true it gives me a little more comfort that it is realistic. 8 x subs gives a better resource balance given that the govt has stated that all new capital will be funded. 10 x OPV's gives some credence to the SEA 1180 conditions which stated that crew numbers be no more than the current ACPB roster and 4 down the track makes sense as there is still plenty of life left in the survey ships and launches and the MHC's.
12 x MFU's is also realistic under the circumstances although it still leaves the fleet thinly spread.
I thought that the re-supply ships was a done deal.

The Army will feel p!ssed off but with the emphasis shifting from exped, continental deployments to a maritime role and given that the RAAF seems to enjoy unlimited favour with politicians, this was always going to happen.
 

rockitten

Member
The front page leader of the Weekend Australian is an exclusive (leaks) about the content of the upcoming DWP, along with the usual whack at the government for ignoring News Limited's advice.

Anyway...new builds

8 Submarines, option maybe for four more in the future
9 Frigates
10 OCV/OPV with four? "multirole" versions down the track

No mention of the bread and butter stuff like tankers, LCH replacements and so on because they don't fit the narrative about spending everything on Navy to protect against China, while leaving the Army with half as much armour as they expected.

And...the accusation that the reason the DWP will now be released in November is because the Government shipbuilding plan changed the entire basis of the DWP.

(EDIT: This is portrayed as a large expansion of Navy, which I'd suggest is bollocks)

oldsig
Just in case someone in this forum cannot by-pass the cookies for the subscription.
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$70bn defence boost builds sea defences

The Australian
September 12, 2015 12:00AM

Australia’s new defence blueprint will commit more than $70 billion to create the most powerful navy in Australia’s history — including eight new submarines and 12 new warships — but will come at a cost to the army, which will have fewer armoured vehicles for future operatio*ns.

The heavy emphasis on maritime power ahead of land forces in the forthcoming defence white paper reflects ongoing concern about the pace and scale of China’s growing naval capabilities, although the document is not expected to concede publicly that there is a connection.

The decision to choose eight submarines instead of the Abbott government’s election promise of 12 new boats is likely to anger South Australia but it is understood that the white paper will keep open the possibility of a further four submarines being built at a later date.

The white paper process has been thrown into turmoil by Tony Abbott’s decision last month to shore up votes in South Australia by announcing a naval shipbuilding plan at odds with that recommended by defence.

Faced with disastrous polling in that state, the Prime Minister brought forward the construction of the navy’s future frigates in Adelaid*e and new offshore patrol vessels to reduce shipbuilding job losses in South Australia.

But the move caused havoc for defence planners, who have had to rewrite much of the white paper to accommodate the rescheduled shipbuilding program and have delayed the release of the policy blueprint, due last month, until early November.

The Weekend Australian under*stands the draft calls for the strongest naval force yet seen in this country and will include eight new 4000-tonne submarines, nine new large frigates, the three Air Warfare Destroyers being built and 10 new larger offshore patrol vessel*s, with a further four multi-role OPVs at a later date.

It says the naval build-up is needed in the face of continued uncertainty in the South China Sea, where Beijing has competing territorial claims with Japan and other nations, and elsewhere in the Indo-Pacific region.

The white paper will not publicly single out China as a potential threat but the navy-first strategy of the white paper reflects concerns inside defence about Beijing’s double-digit defence spending in recent years.

China is investing heavily in new warships and submarines as Beijing seeks the ability to project power well beyond its waters.

At the same time, the document will foreshadow enhanced defence co-operation with the US, including more US marines rotations through Darwin and greater access in northern Australia for the US Air Force.

The government says its white paper will be fully costed, unlike Labor’s 2013 white paper, and will outline real increases in defence spending to take it above the government’s promised 2 per cent of GDP by 2023-24.

However, the $70bn price tag of the new naval forces over the next 20 years has forced Defence to make cuts in other areas, with the size of the army’s planned new armoured fighting vehicle fleet to be reduced.

Under the so-called Land 400 project, worth at least $10bn, the army is replacing its 253 Australian Light Armoured Vehicles, which have seen service in *Afghanistan, Iraq and East Timor, with 225 combat recon*naissance vehicles.

But it is the second phase of this program, the replacement of the 1960s-era M113 armoured personnel carriers, that will be hit by the cuts.

The army was hoping to acquire* about 450 hi-tech infantry fighting vehicles from 2025 to replace* the 700 M113s, but this number will now be reduced.

Former army chief Lieutenant General David Morrison warned in May that his “major concern’’ was that there could be cuts to Land 400, given the big-ticket naval and air force projects and the end of major land operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.

“Army too needs to have *proper and appropriate funding for Land 400 because, if we don’t have that, you’re going to have soldiers operating in theatres in the future where they simply don’t have the protection, the mobili*ty and the firepower that they will need,” he said.

The Royal Australian Air Force will be greatly strength*ened, with the RAAF winning support for its planned 72 new F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, and the decision on a further 28 fighters delayed until next decade.

For the first time, the RAAF will acquire giant unmanned *Triton drones, capable of patrolling about 100,000sq km of ocean, to help monitor Australia’s maritime approaches.

The white paper will also include plans to purchase Australia’s first armed drones.

The decision to initially build eight submarines rather than 12 reflects concerns that a 12-boat program would distort defence budget priorities and swallow up funds needed for other important capabilities.

Navy would also struggle to crew a 12-boat fleet.

Although Defence Minister Kevin Andrews or Tony Abbott could still change the numbers in the draft white paper, all recent meetings inside Defence on new submarines have discussed an eight-boat fleet.

The nations competing for the right to design the new submarines — Germany, France and Japan — have been told to base costings and building schedules on eight submarines.

The construction of the submarines from the mid-2020s is expected to cost about $20bn, with a further $40bn in sustainment costs over their lifetime.

The government will decide early next year which country will design the submarines and where they will be built.

The nine new frigates will also cost $20bn and will be much large than the 3500-tonne Anzacs they will replace. The British Type 26 Global Defence Ship is considered the frontrunner, but the large German F125-class and the French FREMM multi-mission vessel are also likely contenders.

The white paper will call for the $19bn construction of 10 new OPVs, to be known as Corvettes, to be followed by four multi-role Corvettes, which can also hunt mines and do hydrographic tasks. They will be substantially larger than the 13 Armidale-class patrol boats they are replacing. The navy is also about to receive the second of its two large amphibious Landing Helicopter Docks, giving it the ability to move large supplies of troops and equipment.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
$19 billion for 10 - 14 OPV's/Corvettes? Using the Anzac program as a basis I'd imagine we could have acquired them at around the $250m mark at most assuming the program was run as efficiently as the Anzac program. Rule of thumb tends to double the cost of the asset through life time costs so $500m a piece all up, As such a $5 - $7 billion price tag.. For them to say it will cost $19 billion has me stumped. Am I reading into this too much or have the misquoted the figures in the article?
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
$19 billion for 10 - 14 OPV's/Corvettes? Using the Anzac program as a basis I'd imagine we could have acquired them at around the $250m mark at most assuming the program was run as efficiently as the Anzac program. Rule of thumb tends to double the cost of the asset through life time costs so $500m a piece all up, As such a $5 - $7 billion price tag.. For them to say it will cost $19 billion has me stumped. Am I reading into this too much or have the misquoted the figures in the article?
Probably a misprint or the author has the price mixed up with the cost of the frigates.
$20bn for 9 frigates .......Ok - $19bn for 10 corvettes - ......... don't think so
MB
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
19 bn has to be a miss quote, or SA is getting more than we thought, might include a new ship building corp?
I think they have the decimal point in the wrong place. They keep referring to the OPV/OCV as corvettes. You would think that the authors of the white paper would know the difference. It will be interesting to see what the WP actually says.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I think they have the decimal point in the wrong place. They keep referring to the OPV/OCV as corvettes. You would think that the authors of the white paper would know the difference. It will be interesting to see what the WP actually says.

Not sure about Australia's OPV requirements but Canada's AOPS (arctic offshore patrol ship) will cost $600-700 million CDN per ship.
 

chis73

Active Member
The 2013 White Paper had this to say on the Offshore Patrol Vessels:

8.56 Defence will continue to have the capabilities to conduct patrol, mine-hunting and hydrographic roles. Government decisions on the scope and roles of future vessels will take account of the technological maturity of particular solutions, as well as the remaining life of current vessels. A modular multirole vessel remains a possible longer-term capability outcome, subject to technological maturity and an ability to provide operational flexibility with lower costs of ownership. However, in the shorter-term, Government will seek to replace the current Armidale Class patrol boats with a proven vessel to ensure that Defence can continue to provide a patrol capability. Similarly, Government intends to upgrade and extend the existing Mine Hunter Coastal and Survey Motor Launch Hydrographic vessels until the longer-term solution can be delivered.
(My emphasis underlined & in italics).


What intrigues me is this: two years ago the OCV concept was considered technically immature, so much so it got parked indefinitely. Now suddenly it's all good again. Really?? The only vessel that sort of comes close to filling all of the roles would be the Spanish BAM (with it's mix of diesel & diesel-electric propulsion), but even so, I wouldn't want to take it anywhere near a minefield.

Has this new shipbuilding plan really been thought through?
 
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ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
What intrigues me is this: two years ago the OCV concept was considered technically immature, so much so it got parked indefinitely. Now suddenly it's all good again. Really?? The only vessel that sort of comes close to filling all of the roles would be the Spanish BAM (with it's mix of diesel & diesel-electric propulsion), but even so, I wouldn't want to take it anywhere near a minefield.

Has this new shipbuilding plan really been thought through?
Two years ago the SEA 1180 was "parked" because the then govt. ran out of money and the desire to resource the ADF.
There are many OCV/OPV offerings in todays navies and the immaturity referred to were the developing remote unmanned vehicles used for mine warfare, surveillance and REA (rapid environmental assessment).

Finally, OPV's will not be venturing into minefields, that's the job for unmanned vehicles.
 

Bluey 006

Member
So........ A third PM knifed in less than a decade... Is our political system broken? ( well it surely is, but a better question is .... is it beyond repair?)


But back on topic, how will this impact the DWP15 and/or the ship building plan? Tip's for new Defence minister? Can we expect even further delays for DWP now?

I am fully aware of how the Westminster system works but... Does this kind of political power play,infighting and the fact that three prime ministers in recent years have been chosen by politicians not the people undermine the democracy our soldiers,sailors and airmen fought and died for?

..just open positive debate people, lets try not get too heated..its politics
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Bluey, its a sad state of affairs eh!
Hope the white paper dosnt get tweaked again. Turnbull is a money man, guess they all are, but he is a real money man, and I can see some changes, unless its too late to do so.
Bill Shrten will be next, reckon labor will change leadership before the next election, he has no hope of beating Turnbull, Abbott maybe, but Turnbull is too popular, after all, modern Aussie pollotics is all about short term popularity right?
 

rjtjrt

Member
So........ A third PM knifed in less than a decade... Is our political system broken? ( well it surely is, but a better question is .... is it beyond repair?)

...........

I am fully aware of how the Westminster system works but... Does this kind of political power play,infighting and the fact that three prime ministers in recent years have been chosen by politicians not the people undermine the democracy our soldiers,sailors and airmen fought and died for?

..just open positive debate people, lets try not get too heated..its politics
I have no problem with our Westminster system. As we know, PM is not directly elected by the people to the position of PM. It is not a presidential system.
I think/hope most voters are aware of that.
 

Bluey 006

Member
I have no problem with our Westminster system. As we know, PM is not directly elected by the people to the position of PM. It is not a presidential system.
I think/hope most voters are aware of that.
Yes I am aware how the system works, just wondering if it isn't time for a review.... ? 3 x PMs axed in a row - not really conductive to the image of a strong, stable and democratic middle power in our region, is it?
 

rjtjrt

Member
Yes I am aware how the system works, just wondering if it isn't time for a review.... ? 3 x PMs axed in a row - not really conductive to the image of a strong, stable and democratic middle power in our region, is it?
I am sure our regional neighbours are sophisticated enough to understand and work with the PM and government of the day.
Not as though we are changing by coup.
It is a strong democratic system and stability in my mind is reinforced by the orderly way change is achieved, using the rule of law.
Don't see a problem, really.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
So........ A third PM knifed in less than a decade... Is our political system broken? ( well it surely is, but a better question is .... is it beyond repair?)


But back on topic, how will this impact the DWP15 and/or the ship building plan? Tip's for new Defence minister? Can we expect even further delays for DWP now?

I am fully aware of how the Westminster system works but... Does this kind of political power play,infighting and the fact that three prime ministers in recent years have been chosen by politicians not the people undermine the democracy our soldiers,sailors and airmen fought and died for?

..just open positive debate people, lets try not get too heated..its politics
I look at is as a bit of a positive, Now if we do end up with the Soryu variant then it won't be due to some captain's pick by Abbott or even an alleged captains pick (In which case could foster years of drama) but rather because it is (maybe) the best option for us.

Politically speaking his view's more often then not tend to be in line with the greater populace so we may have a more stable government assuming the Abbott supporters don't chuck a hissy fit and try to sabotage him.

I will be looking on with cautious optimism.
 
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