Kim Beasley nearly took the prize in 2001, until the Children Overboard thing blew up. I feel sure that under his watch we would not have bought 59 tanks to replace 100+, nor be facing the Valley of Death the shipbuilding industry is now looking at. I wonder how much Abbott's hatred of the unions has to do with the demise of the car and ship building industries?
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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Trackmaster
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The vehicle building industry is disappearing from Australia because the manufacturers were not producing cars the customer wanted. The day of the big six is gone, and Holden and Ford were left with vehicles from the last century. Holden tried with the Cruze, but too late. Toyota stuck with a medium seller, and the big sellers flooded in by ship.
IMHO, the blame rests with board-room decisions made many years ago. They didn't read the market correctly. As a taxpayer, I don't want any industry to be propped up as a job creation scheme.
As to ship building, I can't help but focus on 2007-2013 when not one naval vessel was ordered.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
What a load of horse $hit, absolute load of horse $hit!
Demise of shipbuilding? Which Government in it's six years in office did not order one single naval ship from an Australian shipyard? Have a guess? Yes that is correct, under both Rudd and Gillard.
Talking of the car industry, under which Governments did Mitsubishi and Ford announce the end of their local production? Have a guess? Yet again, under Rudd and Gillard.
John the simple fact is there has been a shipbuilding black hole with every change of government in my memory. Hawke, Howard and Rudd / Gillard all presided over two terms or more without ordering any ships. This is not a good thing but it is what happened and we just need to hope the current government doesn't repeat the mistakes of the past.
The really sad thing is Labor kicked off the fleet tanker and submarine replacement projects too late, in 2012/13 teams were already being set up, people recruited bids prepared but all of that ground to a halt with the change of government. In 2009, ASC was debating whether to bid for the OCV project or just concentrate on AWD and future subs, there was a school of thought that they should stick with high tech projects and leave the low tech to Tenix / BAE and Forgacs, remembering a fourth AWD was still on the cards then. Well Gillard killed that when she knifed Rudd, it was effectively a non-electoral change of government which saw a new DWP written hence the delay.
If you look at it, every change of government has seen a halt on new projects until a White Paper has been produced, that is the actual delay, the direction on what to order. What I find interesting is most of what the current government appears to be looking favorably at acquiring is not too dissimilar to Rudd and Fitzgibbons DWP, indicating it was probably pretty close to the mark in many areas. Its just a shame an individuals political ambition derailed what was shaping up to be one of the shortest breaks in new orders in the last thirty years.
Blaming any single government for the fault in any particular industry by any person is silly. These thing's foster over time, Not over night.
That said, Mitsubishi and Ford closing down under the Rudd - Gillard governments are merely bad timing rather then anything done or not done by them.
Mitsubishi closed down because for year's proceeding the closure sales had been slipping further and further in locally made vehicles, Blaming a government for that is silly especially when most of the companies fall occurred under the Howard government.
Ford closed down not due to a poor product or poor government but largely due to the Ford Taurus. The US top bosses wanted the Ford Taurus as the global platform so having the Falcon wold not have made sense business wise. In regards to the Falcon while locally it had very low sales globally it was a well regarded vehicle wanted by people both in Europe, the middle east and the US.
Holden and Toyota closed down largely due to the dollar rising and the unions not willing to work with them. Holden/GM had been ready to invest over $1 billion in local manufacturing up till at least 2022 while Toyota wanted to increase production. In regards to both the Abbott government cut $2 billion in funding to the industry at the worst time due to the historically high AUD and the unions didn't want to work with Toyota to increase the number of days the factory was open.
So yes we can criticize the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd government for not ordering any new ships especially the 4th AWD but in regards to the Auto industries demise that mantle can rest with Abbott and the unions as they put the final nail in the coffin when Holden and Toyota were fighting to stay open.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Maybe you should just wait a little while longer before making such grand statements proclaiming that the "conservative Government will not order another ship", I think you are jumping the gun big time on that one.
I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that 'until' the new DWP, DCP and specifically the Naval Shipbuilding plan is announced, we aren't going to see orders being announced.
As best I know, the Government did say very recently that the Naval Shipbuilding plan would be announced prior to the DWP, in fact I believe we will see the plan announced in the next few weeks. Then we can all make our various comments and observations once we actually know the contents of the plan.
For those interested in amphibious support, the sight on Darwin Harbour yesterday was fantastic. Out on the dangerous cargo anchorages were 3 x Lewis and Clark T-AKE's and 1 x Henry Kaiser AO. Tried to get some decent pics but failed dismally.
We've also had USS Green Bay LPD 20 here for nearly 5 days so have a a veritable feat of highly potent amphibs, HMA Ships Arunta and Perth, HMNZ Ships Endeavour and Te Kaha as well. All here in the Top End for TS 2015 naturally
Only wish the L&C's were under the RAN ensign
Got that wrong, just went and checked in daylight and its 2 x Kaisers and 2 x L&C's
We've also had USS Green Bay LPD 20 here for nearly 5 days so have a a veritable feat of highly potent amphibs, HMA Ships Arunta and Perth, HMNZ Ships Endeavour and Te Kaha as well. All here in the Top End for TS 2015 naturally
Only wish the L&C's were under the RAN ensign
Got that wrong, just went and checked in daylight and its 2 x Kaisers and 2 x L&C's
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This is getting perilously close to becoming a party political argument with the usual half truths espoused by both sides.
This is also the second time in a week that 92 Leopards have become 100+ Leopards. The demise of the shipbuilding industry can be sheeted home to both parties too, unless you can list some new build ships ordered by teh Rudd/Gillard/Rudd governments
I suggest that it's far better to drop this line of discussion before someone suggests Jackie Lambie for PM and give this ex-serviceman a fatal stroke
oldsig127
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Mate, seriously??
I think you have completely misunderstood and misinterpreted my comment, firstly just to clarify what I said and why I said it.
Hairyman made the comment: "I wonder how much Abbott's hatred of the unions has to do with the demise of the car and ship building industries?", to which my reply/comment was that it was horse $hit, and I also pointed out two FACTS, and those two facts were that under the Government of Rudd/Gillard/Rudd not one single naval ship was ordered from an Australian shipyard. I also pointed out two other FACTS, and those facts were that both Mitsubishi and Ford announce the end of their local production during their term in Government too.
So please explain to me where I actually 'blamed' any particular Government for any of those events? Where? Because I can't see one single word where I have blamed any Government, I purely stated known historical facts.
The issues facing the naval shipbuilding industry in Australia are an accumulation of many Government decisions, of both political flavours, over many decades, stop / start / stop and repeat over and over, we all know that. And the most recent history is a fact too, during the six years of the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Government not one ship was ordered.
So here we are today, just prior to the announcement from this Government on what they intend to do about the problem, and of course none of us know what the answer to that is going to be, other than some previous announcements about examining the reuse of a modified AWD hull which could potentially lead to block work starting sooner rather than later, we've had the announcement of the tender for 21 replacement Pacific Patrol Boats and we have also had the Def Min talking about OPV's replacing the ACPB's (as opposed to the 2013 Gillard DWP which was proposing the deferral of SEA1180 and instead announced that the ACPB's would be replaced by another class of PB's).
So as soon as the Naval Shipbuilding plan is announced and we can all read and understand it and then we can all make the relevant comments, but at the moment there is little point in throwing around some of the rather wild claims that have littered the recent pages of this thread.
And I'm not going to bother getting into a long winded debate about the motor industry (this is the RAN thread after all), except to say that regardless of which side of politics was in Government, and despite the endless buckets of money thrown at the motor industry, sooner or later the result we have today was inevitably going to happen, for all sorts of reasons, and especially when those manufacturers made vehicles that the vast majority of Australians stop purchasing.
Anyway, how about we all get back to talking about facts and not crap in regard to the RAN, ok?
Please do, all of you. Cheers mate.
Nick underscore
Member
Shame on the photo front. Would be quite a sight.For those interested in amphibious support, the sight on Darwin Harbour yesterday was fantastic. Out on the dangerous cargo anchorages were 3 x Lewis and Clark T-AKE's and 1 x Henry Kaiser AO. Tried to get some decent pics but failed dismally.
We've also had USS Green Bay LPD 20 here for nearly 5 days so have a a veritable feat of highly potent amphibs, HMA Ships Arunta and Perth, HMNZ Ships Endeavour and Te Kaha as well. All here in the Top End for TS 2015 naturally
Only wish the L&C's were under the RAN ensign
Got that wrong, just went and checked in daylight and its 2 x Kaisers and 2 x L&C's
EDIT; You're spot on - Looks like USNS Washington Chambers (T-AKE-11) & USNS Sacagawaea (T-AKE-2) plus USNS Rappahannock (T-AO-204) & USNS Tippecanoe (T-AO-199).
EDIT AGAIN; Another Lewis & Clark has joined TS2015 - USNS Amelia Earhart (T-AKE-6) is in Darwin along with HMAS Sirius
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t68
Well-Known Member
I am sorry, which article are you referring to?DID go overboard in their war against the F35 by reporting that the "aussies are the first to dump the F35 program" which on second reading, is just reporting the decision not to buy F35B to fly off the LHD's. So, that's fair reporting then
Defence Industry Daily is usually one of the better sites when it comes to no-nonsense military reporting. It's one I check out often.DID go overboard in their war against the F35 by reporting that the "aussies are the first to dump the F35 program" which on second reading, is just reporting the decision not to buy F35B to fly off the LHD's. So, that's fair reporting then
I'm assuming that article was designed as click-bait because it's about as far from reality as a headline can get. It's disappointing when they let their standards drop like that.
Perhaps they were just trolling Air Power Australia.
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The article if others haven't seen it.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...extron-bid-for-little-orphan-sikorsky-030435/
Anyone here subscribed to The Australian? I wanna know if the source is from Japan or just another smoke screen(s) from SA................
Japanese ‘ready’ to build subs here
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
Japanese ‘ready’ to build subs here
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
That is actually a relief as had the procurement gone through I suspect cost and schedule would have blown out as regularly happened with PM/politically inspired, as opposed to defence planned and requested, capabilities. The ADF knows what they want and what they need, as well as what is involved in getting them, unfortunately the political classes don't and when they choose to ignore the experts, both uniformed and civilian (in government and industry), you get a mess.
Navy wanted Arleigh Burke Flight IIAs in the late 90s instead they are still waiting for their slightly modified (arguably less capable) F-100s, army wanted UH-60Ms, they are still having issues getting the MRH90s certified and brought up to standard. Navy wanted corvettes or OPVs, they got the Armidales, a regiment of M-1A2s and a minor update of the M-113 pending replacement with an AIFV was the go in the early 90s (would have made for a nice armoured brigade in 2003), instead we got M-1A1s over a decade later and are still using M-113s. The list could go on for ever.
*note: yes I know that most of what I listed could quite honestly and easily be blamed on the Prime Minister of Defence (Robert Hill's nick name for Howard) but Keating's cost cutting in the early 90s did a lot of damage too.
Well it appears Japan may not actually have the capacity, the space in yards, the trained personnel etc. to build the extra boats Australia requires. Apart from the reports that a new facility (ironically based on ASCs more advanced Adelaide yard) would be required for the job to be done in Japan, there is also the fact that most of the required trades, technicians and engineers are already in Adelaide and it would be cheaper and easier to fill gaps their than train all the extra heads needed in Japan.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Maybe there is still hope for a major Australian contribution towards the new sub build then?
Really dont care who builds the subs or where they are built, as long as we get good subs on time and on budget, or close.
Dont hear everyone getting upset about the LHD builds in Spain, JSF builds in the US etc etc, just because we can, is not a good enough reason. Im yet ro see an Australian project come in on time on budget with few issues after delivery. Even the F88 was a disaster at the start, took forever to deliver to all regular units, had quite a few issues to.
Dont hear everyone getting upset about the LHD builds in Spain, JSF builds in the US etc etc, just because we can, is not a good enough reason. Im yet ro see an Australian project come in on time on budget with few issues after delivery. Even the F88 was a disaster at the start, took forever to deliver to all regular units, had quite a few issues to.
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