Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Tasman]

Ok, genuine question here:
re the RAN role of Utility helicopter, I had imagined the MRH90 to be useful hauler.
it has a large cabin, a rear ramp, it’s a decent size so can carry good weight.

I appreciate its technical dramas, but had interpreted them ‘mostly’ to be tactical issues, not particularly relevant to an A to B Utility/Lifter.
I had thought they’d suit that RAN role.

Whats the deal breaker with the MRH90 in that role?

The MRH-90 is not marinised so it needs to be washed down after flights at sea. IIRC the rotor blades have to be folded manually so time consuming when moving to the hangars. There was also an issue with not being able to brake the rotor blades after landing which can cause issues with a helicopter on a flight deck at sea. I don't know if this has been fixed.
Tas

 

[vonnoobie]

The MHR-90 is not marinised so it needs to be washed down after flights at sea. IIRC the rotor blades have to be folded manually so time consuming when moving to the hangars. There was also an issue with not being able to brake the rotor blades after landing which can cause issues with a helicopter on a flight deck at sea. I don't know if this has been fixed.
Tas

And for the RAN it would be more economical to have their crew trained to maintain one family of helicopter's. RAN FAA is only so large and trying to stretch it out maintaining too many different assets could very well break it.

 

[Stampede]

To do what? One major role for the Navy's Utility Helicopters is as part of the resupply role from the AORs, the LHDs at times and in the future the JSS, they need to be able to move pallets from Ship to Ship and ship to Shore.

To do what is a good question.

I still thing Navy will get a medium Sized logistic helicopter.
Having said that I also feel a smaller helicopter has a place for both Army and Navy.
We will get such a helicopter for the special services.
I feel there is scope to think laterally as to what our broad needs are in this area.

Helicopters are very flexible platforms.
They don't have to be gunned up and sexy.
Basic cheap and agricultural has a place.
Maybe a compliment aircraft not a substitute.

In the Navy context part of the answer will be how do we currently employ the Taipans.
Are they always full load?

Also the OPV's are early days.
I still feel manned aviation has a place for this vessel.
A small helicopter in conjunction with planned UAV's will add to the vessels constabulary roles immensely.

With hangar space at a premium small helicopters have a small foot print


Regards S

 

[ngatimozart]

One option is the AW139M which is marinised, folding rotors etc., and the civilian variant is operating in Australia as the AW139, so there is local support for it. I believe that various State emergency services use it or the AW169 which is a smaller variant of it, as their flying ambulances. It isn't built by Airbus / NHI but by Augusta Westland now owned by Leonardo. It's already in service with the Italian Military.

 

[spoz]

Australia bought a number of rotor brake kits; at least 6 but I don’t recall exactly how many. Not enough for the entire MRH-90 fleet, at least initially. Whether they have bought more since I don’t know.

 

[icelord]

Same pattern as the Army's but different colours of course.
Question for our RAN Defpros, is there any real advantage to Sailors wearing Cammos on board Ship?

As someone who was in the grey overalls and transitioned to the Camo in 2009, it was a big difference.

We got rid of the blue king gee uniforms with the Camo being alot more professional looking(losing the shorts was sad)

The ability to remove the jacket and work outside on part of ship in the grey under Shirt allowed more comfort especially when in the Middle East, Asia or just Darwin harbour.

The Camo uniform also allowed us to go ashore on base or outside without needing to change. Most ships had the rule that Overalls were a ship uniform, to go ashore or even to Harrys Pies required you to change into whites so tasking was more simple.

I like the idea of 2 seperate uniforms, hopefully one with and one without the reflective band. The reflective band never made sense ashore and could wash poorly. Seperate 'Shore' to 'Sea' uniforms would suit.

At sea when Man Over Board, the ships spotlight reflects it well on the reflective band at night when combined with glo sticks. During the day its still able to be seen against a dark East Coast blue or Northern light blue sea.

 

[Wombat000]

My understanding is the cam uniform is essentially a corporate working uniform thing.
Whenever anyone saw cam uniform it was always army, kids therefore wanted to be army, purely because they just didn’t recognise the other services. Even other services still wear ‘Army’ cams on ops and had worn them more generally
Services are concerned about recruitment!
- Navy wore similar grey overalls as the local mechanic, and the RAAF blue tshirts and shorts could’ve been truck drivers.

RAAF and RAN cam is not about hiding, it’s about National and service recognition, and a simple universal Australian pattern/colour working uniform.
in the Naval context, the reflective strip is to aid identification in vision impaired situations, such as smoke filled spaces or man overboard.

 

[ddxx]

I'm not sure if this has been posted previously, but the recruitment levels and overall headcount growth for the RAN over the 19-20 FY is certainly great to see. A great example of what the RAN can do recruitment wise when directed/budgeted by the Government.



Source

 

[DDG38]

I would point out that may be a temporary, pandemic driven spike in numbers. There has been a clear increase in ex-members returning to the ADF in the past 12 months due to job losses in other sectors (based on the data I've seen in my job). As history shows, economic down turns are generally good for the ADF as people go chasing a more stable income. We'll see if these number increases are sustained in 5 - 10 years.

 

[ddxx]

I would point out that may be a temporary, pandemic driven spike in numbers. There has been a clear increase in ex-members returning to the ADF in the past 12 months due to job losses in other sectors (based on the data I've seen in my job). As history shows, economic down turns are generally good for the ADF as people go chasing a more stable income.

COVID was only declared a pandemic in March 2020, so I doubt the pandemic would have had much impact on numbers over the June 2019 to June 2020 period. I think we'd have to wait to see the numbers in the 2020/21 Annual Report to see what effect this may have.

We'll see if these number increases are sustained in 5 - 10 years.

Absolutely, that's the key for sure.

 

[aussienscale]

COVID was only declared a pandemic in March 2020, so I doubt the pandemic would have had much impact on numbers over the June 2019 to June 2020 period. I think we'd have to wait to see the numbers in the 2020/21 Annual Report to see what effect this may have.



Absolutely, that's the key for sure.

What those numbers don't show you however is the actual manning requirements for category, rank and promotional structures, shortages in ship shore rosters etc

So while on paper the increase in encouraging, and yep needs to continue upwards, it does not necessarily point to a real growth in actual requirements and billeting, every single one of them could be filling gaps and shortfalls.

Cheers

 

[InterestedParty]

My understanding is the cam uniform is essentially a corporate working uniform thing.
Whenever anyone saw cam uniform it was always army, kids therefore wanted to be army, purely because they just didn’t recognise the other services. Even other services still wear ‘Army’ cams on ops and had worn them more generally
Services are concerned about recruitment!
- Navy wore similar grey overalls as the local mechanic, and the RAAF blue tshirts and shorts could’ve been truck drivers.

RAAF and RAN cam is not about hiding, it’s about National and service recognition, and a simple universal Australian pattern/colour working uniform.
in the Naval context, the reflective strip is to aid identification in vision impaired situations, such as smoke filled spaces or man overboard.

I did some work many years ago for 501 Wing at Amberley and the techs in the F111 engine maintenance squadron told me that they like the cam uniform because the RAAF did the laundry but with the previous work uniform they had to launder the uniforms themselves

 

[ddxx]

So while on paper the increase in encouraging, and yep needs to continue upwards, it does not necessarily point to a real growth in actual requirements and billeting, every single one of them could be filling gaps and shortfalls.

We're completely on the same page, I certainly wasn't intending to claim otherwise.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I think the RAN uniform has been a big success.. I wonder if the UK starts basing people out in Australia if they will change their uniform?



Its the RAAF one that confuses people..

 

[DDG38]

COVID was only declared a pandemic in March 2020, so I doubt the pandemic would have had much impact on numbers over the June 2019 to June 2020 period. I think we'd have to wait to see the numbers in the 2020/21 Annual Report to see what effect this may have.

Yep absolutely spot on, I'm a year ahead of myself (probably because currently I don't know what day/month/year it actually is). Will be interesting to see how the numbers go in the next couple of years and whether there's a softening of the curve post pandemic when big industries restart. And @aussienscale is totally on the money, without rate specifics it's hard to know if it will have any impact on capability.

 

[cdxbow]

I think the RAN uniform has been a big success.. I wonder if the UK starts basing people out in Australia if they will change their uniform?

View attachment 48575

Its the RAAF one that confuses people..
View attachment 48576

I thought the fantasy threads had closed?

 

[Massive]

If the RAN were to acquire two JSS ships, then there would be plenty of amphibious capability and the LHD could pick up an additional role

Even with two JSS I still find myself wondering if the ARG is a realistic capability.

I can see that the RAN can deliver it but it is very hard to see how it can sustain it.

Regular discussions on this forum recognise that STUFT isn't going to be sufficient, and there doesn't seem to be an appetite for a number of vessels similar to the Point Class.

So are we going to get this capability in the end? Really unclear to me that this will be the case.

Thoughts?

Massive

 

[StingrayOZ]

I thought the fantasy threads had closed?

Seapatrol was a real show and was a significant boost to the RAN recruitment. Not sure if you could say street fighter was a real movie.

Regular discussions on this forum recognize that STUFT isn't going to be sufficient, and there doesn't seem to be an appetite for a number of vessels similar to the Point Class.

No I don't see Australia going down the point class route.

The JSS project is also vague, while we have seen a single design example, it may not be the way the RAN goes either. It could be a smaller ship. RAN fleet requirements aren't huge.

Thoughts?

Rambling mode on..

The balkipans were mean to be replaced originally with a new class to enter service this year. Land 8710 has a new advisor. The program seems to be getting shuffled and refocused.

They may go with something like LST120 type boats, a riverine craft etc. In that case the Army and the ARG might reconfigure. Also there are several LAND projects that will have tremendous impact on the ARG concepts. Land 400 and related. This will see any ARG grow massively in weight, size and what not.

There is some conversation about getting a 3rd AOR. Conversation about 3rd LHD has also occurred.

Really until the army figures itself out, which will happen shortly, Navy seems to be waiting. Its two new AOR are just arriving. Amphibious capabilities and requirements will need to flow from Army. Any merging RAN resupply and Army Amphib will need to be considered. It seems like the Army wants to be a bit more self reliant for small scale Amphibious, but then that will also change how an ARG works.

Clearly there is a lot going at the moment, new a new def min. I expect some clarity to arrive in 2022.

 

[aussienscale]

Seapatrol was a real show and was a significant boost to the RAN recruitment.

NOOOOOOOOO NO NO NO NO NO NO !!!!

Seapatrol is not just a real show, but a real life show about the Australian Coastguard and so forth, just ask our very own Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young

 

[DDG38]

Meanwhile at sea : "HMAS Anzac fires it's five inch gun while underway during Indo-Pacific Endeavour 21." Image Source - ADF Image Library