Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Anthony_B_78

Active Member
I have been looking for the full list of announcements but google is drowning in SSN commentary. Do you have a link.

Media release is up now - PM's media release

Here's the extra bits:

Other capabilities
The Government will also acquire additional long-range strike capabilities for the Australian Defence Force.

Throughout the decade, Australia will rapidly acquire long-range strike capabilities to enhance the ADF’s ability to deliver strike effects across our air, land and maritime domains.

These include:

  • Tomahawk Cruise Missiles, to be fielded on our Hobart class destroyers, enabling our maritime assets to strike land targets at greater distances, with better precision.
  • Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (Extended Range) will enable our F/A-18 A/B Hornets and in future, our F-35A Lightning II, to hit targets at a range of 900km.
  • Long-Range Anti-Ship Missiles (Extended Range) (LRASM) for the F/A-18F Super Hornet.
  • Continuing collaboration with the United States to develop hypersonic missiles for our air capabilities.
  • Precision strike guided missiles for our land forces, which are capable of destroying, neutralising and supressing diverse targets from over 400km.
  • Accelerating $1 billion for a sovereign guided weapons manufacturing enterprise – which will enable us to create our own weapons on Australian soil.
These capabilities, coupled with the planned Life-of-Type Extension of Australia’s Collins class submarine fleet, will enhance Australia’s ability to deter and respond to potential security challenges.

The management of this transition, and other capability acquisition options that will meet Australia’s strategic requirements, will be at the forefront of consultations through AUKUS over the next 18 months.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The article is behind a paywall. I would be astounded if NZ banned RAN SSNs from port visits.
Being widely reported.


Ms Ardern said her Australian counterpart Scott Morrison had briefed her on Canberra's plan to develop nuclear-powered submarines with the help of the US and Britain.

She described the deal as "primarily around technology and defence hardware", playing down implications for the so-called "Five Eyes" partnership of the US, Britain, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

"This arrangement in no way changes our security and intelligence ties with these three countries, as well as Canada," Ms Ardern said in a statement on Thursday.

But she also said that New Zealand would maintain a ban on nuclear-powered vessels that dates back to 1985, meaning Wellington will not allow the prized naval asset being developed by Australia into its waters.

"New Zealand's position in relation to the prohibition of nuclear-powered vessels in our waters remains unchanged," Ardern said.
It doesn't look good for NZ.
Clearly the relationship between NZ and AU needs to evolve or devolve.


Check out the comments section.. familiar faces.. NZ defence policy was heavy with apathy. This changes that.. NZ will have to make a decision on which team they are with. While very theoretical at this stage, its a coming.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The article is behind a paywall. I would be astounded if NZ banned RAN SSNs from port visits.
Honestly the current NZG does not AFAIK have much of a choice but to ban any/all nuclear-powered vessels from NZ home waters, courtesy of the
New Zealand Nuclear Free Zone, Disarmament, and Arms Control Act of 1987 which I have linked to here.

Perhaps Mr.C could provide some guidance on what options might be open/available to the NZG, but my current understanding is that 'regular' RAN surface vessels could still do port visits, but anything nuclear-powered or armed would be refused.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I honestly don't know what will happen going forward but building nukes in Australia still seems to be a pipe dream. I actually found myself googling "How to build a Nuclear Submarine"and come to the conclusion that it maybe beyond Australia's capability. However I don't see any spare capacity in either the UK or US. Unless the USN is willing to give up a few of their spots in the Virginia production line or the UK is willing to push back the Dreadnaught class I don't see an overseas build happening.

As the first non-nuclear power to get nuclear submarines we are in completely uncharted territory.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Honestly the current NZG does not AFAIK have much of a choice but to ban any/all nuclear-powered vessels from NZ home waters, courtesy of the
New Zealand Nuclear Free Zone, Disarmament, and Arms Control Act of 1987 which I have linked to here.
Obviously there are solutions, and Australian subs rarely/never visited NZ as it was. So from a practical point of view nothing changes. Collins will be with Australia for decades yet.

But it will put some pressure on NZ to figure out what it wants.
Dissipating Anzus is probably a bigger issue. Perhaps a proper ANZAC treaty is needed. At the same time AU can arm twist. Although I hear NZ is changing its name, so perhaps they will just disappear. Often people don't even bother putting it on the global map anymore. ;-)

I honestly don't know what will happen going forward but building nukes in Australia still seems to be a pipe dream. I actually found myself googling "How to build a Nuclear Submarine"and come to the conclusion that it maybe beyond Australia's capability. However I don't see any spare capacity in either the UK or US. Unless the USN is willing to give up a few of their spots in the Virginia production line or the UK is willing to push back the Dreadnaught class I don't see an overseas build happening.
Local build here. For sure. Reactor will probably be UK PWR3, but with perhaps US material. Reactor building capacity isn't the problem at the moment.

Reactors are now sealed for life units. Never need to be refuelled, or opened up at all. We get the magic physics gizmo from overseas, and put it in our box.
 

PeterM

Active Member
Undoubtedly this is an off the peg build the only question is, will it be Astutes or Virginia's. The decision might be something like 8 x Astutes or 6 x Virginias. Some sort of ratio like that, and a decision will need to be made.

Reactors will be shipped over complete. Never need to be refuelled, and will be shipped back for decommissioning.
I am expecting an Astute with US combat systems, much like Ngata mentioned earlier. They are being built in Adelaide, so the scaling up of infrastructure requirements needed to build these will be a factor.
  • Attack class were meant to be around 97m x 8.8m
  • Astutes are 97m x 11.3m
  • Virginias are 115m (140m for block V) x 10m
Virginia's will need a 20% longer dock at least.

I also think Boris Johnson's presence at the announcement for the subs is notable, particularly as he mentioned creating jobs in England in his speech.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Obviously there are solutions, and Australian subs rarely/never visited NZ as it was. So from a practical point of view nothing changes. Collins will be with Australia for decades yet.

But it will put some pressure on NZ to figure out what it wants.
Dissipating Anzus is probably a bigger issue. Perhaps a proper ANZAC treaty is needed. At the same time AU can arm twist. Although I hear NZ is changing its name, so perhaps they will just disappear. Often people don't even bother putting it on the global map anymore. ;-)


Local build here. For sure. Reactor will probably be UK PWR3, but with perhaps US material. Reactor building capacity isn't the problem at the moment.

Reactors are now sealed for life units. Never need to be refuelled, or opened up at all. We get the magic physics gizmo from overseas, and put it in our box.
The Oberons did visit NZ so we could play with their P3's..... I had the joy of sailing into Timaru in mid winter .... a submarine bridge is VERY open with not place to escape a draft. Submarine Jumpers a necessity.

I suspect the Collins may do the same but could not be sure.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I am expecting an Astute with US combat systems, much like Ngata mentioned earlier. They are being built in Adelaide, so the scaling up of infrastructure requirements needed to build these will be a factor.
  • Attack class were meant to be around 97m x 8.8m
  • Astutes are 97m x 11.3m
  • Virginias are 115m (140m for block V) x 10m
Virginia's will need a 20% longer dock at least.

I also think Boris Johnson's presence at the announcement for the subs is notable, particularly as he mentioned creating jobs in England in his speech.
If I were a betting man I would say Astutes with a US combat system. For that to happen the US would still need to acquiesce which explains Biden's presence at the announcement. BAE Systems also already has a huge presence in Australia which would speed up the process.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If I were a betting man I would say Astutes with a US combat system. For that to happen the US would still need to acquiesce which explains Biden's presence at the announcement. BAE Systems also already has a huge presence in Australia which would speed up the process.
And it may be 12 if you believe this quote attributed to the PM

Instead we should buy 12 of a proven design which is already in the water. We want long-range hunter-killer vessels. We also want them to be able to stay submerged for long periods to avoid detection. Nuclear does this in spades."

Australia, US and UK form AUUKUS under a new nuclear submarine defence pact | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
But it will put some pressure on NZ to figure out what it wants.
Dissipating Anzus is probably a bigger issue. Perhaps a proper ANZAC treaty is needed. At the same time AU can arm twist.
A constructive comment.

Although I hear NZ is changing its name, so perhaps they will just disappear. Often people don't even bother putting it on the global map anymore. ;-)
And this is not.
 

SavageDentures

New Member
I am expecting an Astute with US combat systems, much like Ngata mentioned earlier. They are being built in Adelaide, so the scaling up of infrastructure requirements needed to build these will be a factor.
  • Attack class were meant to be around 97m x 8.8m
  • Astutes are 97m x 11.3m
  • Virginias are 115m (140m for block V) x 10m
Virginia's will need a 20% longer dock at least.

I also think Boris Johnson's presence at the announcement for the subs is notable, particularly as he mentioned creating jobs in England in his speech.
If they choose Astute class I hope they get a wriggle on as its taking the Poms 9 - 11 years per build to commissioning per sub

1631762334275.png
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
And it may be 12 if you believe this quote attributed to the PM

Instead we should buy 12 of a proven design which is already in the water. We want long-range hunter-killer vessels. We also want them to be able to stay submerged for long periods to avoid detection. Nuclear does this in spades."

Australia, US and UK form AUUKUS under a new nuclear submarine defence pact | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site
Oh Brother, News.com, can't even get the name of the new defence pact right:(
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am expecting an Astute with US combat systems, much like Ngata mentioned earlier. They are being built in Adelaide, so the scaling up of infrastructure requirements needed to build these will be a factor.
I think the crewing is the biggest issue with the US subs. But the US subs are longer, but I don't think thats a deal breaker.

The Oberons did visit NZ so we could play with their P3's..... I had the joy of sailing into Timaru in mid winter .... a submarine bridge is VERY open with not place to escape a draft. Submarine Jumpers a necessity.

I suspect the Collins may do the same but could not be sure
Long way from FBW..
I would assume any P8 would have to fly to Australia to get any sort of training.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Oberons did visit NZ so we could play with their P3's..... I had the joy of sailing into Timaru in mid winter .... a submarine bridge is VERY open with not place to escape a draft. Submarine Jumpers a necessity.

I suspect the Collins may do the same but could not be sure.
Nice surge in Timaru too, even when you are alongside. I paid a visit to a RAN Oberon when it was tied up alongside at Wellington in 1981. Can't remember which boat.
 
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