Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Massive

Active Member
I think you can comfortably assume that a reduction in fleet numbers wasn't feasible (after all, cuts weren't announced in the DDG or FFG world).

As a simple, less sensitive guide to some of the thinking, MFUs are used much more than detterence.

As it stands we've done the prioritisation of capabilities, and as the FSP shows, 9 FFGs are still a higher priority than many other things.

Just have to change their names....
Thanks Takao,

I appreciate the considered reply.

I will concede the point here on the 9 Hunters.

My general approach here is based on your oft posted "the budget is committed, if you want to propose something else you need to be able to say what you would cut".

What is the "deterrence" role of an MFU? What would they deter?

Thanks again,

Massive
 

toryu

Member
Random thought, maybe someone's line of thinking for a thin flight deck is only for use by UAVs ? Firescout etc, don't weigh as much as a MH60. Even still, seems a breathtaking decision to remove that capability out of the build.
Thus is just my personal opinion, but I've suspected this is the idea since shortly after the decision to use the Lürssen design was made. Nothing else makes sense to me. I doubt we'll even see anything as large as the Firescout (B). I think the Navy toying around with Camcopter and ScanEagle probably points the way to the size/class of rotary and fixed wing UAVs being considered. The vessel selected, the choices made and the platforms being played with just screams that they're after small systems that can be containerised and just lifted on or off the ship depending on requirements.

And this makes sense given the primary (but not fixed) role the class is meant to play. These small systems can provide basic OTH surveillance for many hours. Cheap enough to be procured in decent numbers. When the Navy is done experimenting and selects its preferential systems somewhere down the track, I would hope to see deployed Arafuras (doing the primary patrol/surveillance job) running around with multiples of each type of system. 2-3 rotary and 1-2 fixed wing**. 24 hour persistent surveillance in a large area out to well beyond horizon (80km+), that drastically expands on the range of the ships primary mast sensors. The area that each ship could patrol in one pass would be improved several times over.

The only thing I feel is missing from the class then is a small drone hangar hooked up to the ships climate systems. Working out of a sun-baked shipping container in the tropics would be unpleasant and seems less efficient that making one central storage and maintenance area.

I could have misinterpreted all of this entirely. The RAN does seem to throw a lot of curveballs with its acquisitions.

(**probably wishful thinking)
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Thus is just my personal opinion, but I've suspected this is the idea since shortly after the decision to use the Lürssen design was made. Nothing else makes sense to me. I doubt we'll even see anything as large as the Firescout (B). I think the Navy toying around with Camcopter and ScanEagle probably points the way to the size/class of rotary and fixed wing UAVs being considered. The vessel selected, the choices made and the platforms being played with just screams that they're after small systems that can be containerised and just lifted on or off the ship depending on requirements.

And this makes sense given the primary (but not fixed) role the class is meant to play. These small systems can provide basic OTH surveillance for many hours. Cheap enough to be procured in decent numbers. When the Navy is done experimenting and selects its preferential systems somewhere down the track, I would hope to see deployed Arafuras (doing the primary patrol/surveillance job) running around with multiples of each type of system. 2-3 rotary and 1-2 fixed wing**. 24 hour persistent surveillance in a large area out to well beyond horizon (80km+), that drastically expands on the range of the ships primary mast sensors. The area that each ship could patrol in one pass would be improved several times over.

The only thing I feel is missing from the class then is a small drone hangar hooked up to the ships climate systems. Working out of a sun-baked shipping container in the tropics would be unpleasant and seems less efficient that making one central storage and maintenance area.

I could have misinterpreted all of this entirely. The RAN does seem to throw a lot of curveballs with its acquisitions.

(**probably wishful thinking)
I think you will find that systems like the S-100 come with its own specialised Shipping Container that is set up not only to transport the system but has control stations, has the Antenna fitted, can carry the necessities for maintenance and repairs and is fully climate controlled. There is no way in the wide world you could operate out of a unmodified shipping container on the deck of a ship in either the weather extremes of the Tropics or the Southern Ocean, the extreme heat or cold would play havoc with the Electronics let alone what it would do to the operators.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
There is no way in the wide world you could operate out of a unmodified shipping container on the deck of a ship in either the weather extremes of the Tropics or the Southern Ocean, the extreme heat or cold would play havoc with the Electronics let alone what it would do to the operators.
Anything is possible. A roof you say? Air conditioning.. Arrh the days when the RAN could only afford 1 hat, and only officers could afford shirts.
1601503707609.png

The Camcopter s-100 container system is pretty sweet, although I am not sure its designed for marine operations. It includes two laptops, air con, blinds.
1601504282091.png

OPV's have 9LV so combat system wise its not terrible. But I suspect even that was selected to cut training costs.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Anything is possible. A roof you say? Air conditioning.. Arrh the days when the RAN could only afford 1 hat, and only officers could afford shirts.
View attachment 47696

Who's that in the CO's chair? It looks a bit like Jim O'Hara who of course never captained her; but it also looks like he has LEUT's rings while the officer at the pelorus looks like a sub; so the afternoon watch with the captain having a snooze? Terrific ships.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Thus is just my personal opinion, but I've suspected this is the idea since shortly after the decision to use the Lürssen design was made. Nothing else makes sense to me. I doubt we'll even see anything as large as the Firescout (B). I think the Navy toying around with Camcopter and ScanEagle probably points the way to the size/class of rotary and fixed wing UAVs being considered. The vessel selected, the choices made and the platforms being played with just screams that they're after small systems that can be containerised and just lifted on or off the ship depending on requirements.

And this makes sense given the primary (but not fixed) role the class is meant to play. These small systems can provide basic OTH surveillance for many hours. Cheap enough to be procured in decent numbers. When the Navy is done experimenting and selects its preferential systems somewhere down the track, I would hope to see deployed Arafuras (doing the primary patrol/surveillance job) running around with multiples of each type of system. 2-3 rotary and 1-2 fixed wing**. 24 hour persistent surveillance in a large area out to well beyond horizon (80km+), that drastically expands on the range of the ships primary mast sensors. The area that each ship could patrol in one pass would be improved several times over.

The only thing I feel is missing from the class then is a small drone hangar hooked up to the ships climate systems. Working out of a sun-baked shipping container in the tropics would be unpleasant and seems less efficient that making one central storage and maintenance area.

I could have misinterpreted all of this entirely. The RAN does seem to throw a lot of curveballs with its acquisitions.

(**probably wishful thinking)

Toryu

A good summation of the peace time aspirations for the class.
A quantum leap in surveillance and sea keeping ability at distance than the previous three generations of patrol "boats".
The helicopter limitations of the flight ( Flexi / mission ) deck will hopefully be remedied, even if the class over the next three decades of service never fire a war shot.
Working on the theory the class don't have the luxury of a peaceful life; then the question will be asked, not what was it designed for and what it cannot do! But rather what is its potential.....................The questioned asked of any defence asset in 1942 not 1935.
My wishful thinking is the vessel has integral scope in design to be much more than it's peaceful incarnation.

But yes, your correct in your thoughts it will not be a frigate, but it could however be much more than a patrol boat.

Regards S
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
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ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Anything is possible. A roof you say? Air conditioning.. Arrh the days when the RAN could only afford 1 hat, and only officers could afford shirts.
View attachment 47696

The Camcopter s-100 container system is pretty sweet, although I am not sure its designed for marine operations. It includes two laptops, air con, blinds.
View attachment 47697

OPV's have 9LV so combat system wise its not terrible. But I suspect even that was selected to cut training costs.
I’ve kept watche
Who's that in the CO's chair? It looks a bit like Jim O'Hara who of course never captained her; but it also looks like he has LEUT's rings while the officer at the pelorus looks like a sub; so the afternoon watch with the captain having a snooze? Terrific ships.
Jim was a year ahead of me. Vampire was “up top” on FESR in 1969, I was a Phase II Midshipman in her after the Melbourne/Evans collision.
In June 1970 Vampire commenced her big half life conversion/refit at Williamstown so the pic is unlikely to be Jim.
Fantastic bridges to be on in the tropics but not much fun in winter in the EAXA.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Very typical of any period up to the first Gulf war. Most of us didn't suffer that many ill effects apart from the odd BCC - although of course for a few it was catastrophic. I would particularly miss the sandals when in summer rig if I could still to go to sea in a warship.

The picture, while on the Vampire page, could actually be of VD; not Ducky though I think she was a bit different (cudgels brain for 50 year old memories!). Not Voyager either - the baseball caps didn't really come in till the mid 60s and 7th fleet time; and the one the signalman on the starboard side is wearing is pretty faded (it might even be kharki).

Open bridges in winter - spent some of the worst hours of my life on Anzac's bridge coming south into a Tasman low, upper deck closed and watch on stop on - not that it compares with some of Assail's experiences, we were never in any danger, but decidedly uncomfortable.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I don't know where it comes from, uniform, APS, or political, but I have noticed a very strong aversion to forward thinking and planning.

An example I can think of is the Hobart class helicopter facilities. It was known during build, in fact well before consolidation, that they would never operate SH-60B, let alone the Super Sea Sprite. It was known that neither the MH-60R or NH-90 physically fit in the hangar and that the structural mods required for one, would suit the other. It was known that Penguin would never be carried. Yet despite all this knowledge, only the final ship had the required changes incorporated during build, and even then they were modifications that required completed work to be removed and scrapped.

There is a degree of inertia and risk aversion that is at times mind boggling. Like I stated, I don't know where it comes from but it is there, and follows through, no matter the justification for acting sooner.

Somewhere the decision was made that the OPVs would only operate UAVs and every other decision has been made IAW this. No doubt we will see studies in years to come to strengthen the flight decks and add ballast to compensate.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Very typical of any period up to the first Gulf war. Most of us didn't suffer that many ill effects apart from the odd BCC - although of course for a few it was catastrophic. I would particularly miss the sandals when in summer rig if I could still to go to sea in a warship.

The picture, while on the Vampire page, could actually be of VD; not Ducky though I think she was a bit different (cudgels brain for 50 year old memories!). Not Voyager either - the baseball caps didn't really come in till the mid 60s and 7th fleet time; and the one the signalman on the starboard side is wearing is pretty faded (it might even be kharki).

Open bridges in winter - spent some of the worst hours of my life on Anzac's bridge coming south into a Tasman low, upper deck closed and watch on stop on - not that it compares with some of Assail's experiences, we were never in any danger, but decidedly uncomfortable.
How in all name of sanity they did the Arctic Convoys in WW2 in open Bridges is beyond me.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
NUSHIP Supply II arrived at FBW today.
You would think that the RAN fb page or Navy Daily News would carry the storey but apparently it’s a long weekend and they’ve all signed off.
Got these pics from Supply’s own page.

Just adding a small article from APDR regarding NUSHIP Supply II


Regards Stampede
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I've been thinking on the Pacific support ship, eventual Choules replacement and wonder if a smallish through deck amphib, such as the Osumi or San Giogio would be suitable? I believe there are through deck variants of Singapores Endurance and the Netherlands Endurance as well.

Such a ship could switch roles rapidly from troop lift to HADR, SAR, logistics support for deployed forces, MCM support, mobile base for special forces operations, supplement the aviation and lift capabilities of the LHDs, provide a versatile platform where an LHD is over kill. Imagine an evacuation scenario where one of these goes in with SAS / 2 Commando, detachments from 6 AVN and 1 AVN, fast combat boats etc. as a path finder force for regular forces on an LHD.

Further, if the ADF does eventually go for F-35B, such ships could operate the Tigers, MRH and / or Chooks pushed off the LHDs decks, something a more conventional LPD cant do.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I've been thinking on the Pacific support ship, eventual Choules replacement and wonder if a smallish through deck amphib, such as the Osumi or San Giogio would be suitable? I believe there are through deck variants of Singapores Endurance and the Netherlands Endurance as well.

Such a ship could switch roles rapidly from troop lift to HADR, SAR, logistics support for deployed forces, MCM support, mobile base for special forces operations, supplement the aviation and lift capabilities of the LHDs, provide a versatile platform where an LHD is over kill. Imagine an evacuation scenario where one of these goes in with SAS / 2 Commando, detachments from 6 AVN and 1 AVN, fast combat boats etc. as a path finder force for regular forces on an LHD.

Further, if the ADF does eventually go for F-35B, such ships could operate the Tigers, MRH and / or Chooks pushed off the LHDs decks, something a more conventional LPD cant do.
Now we're cooking with gas. This is one of the more sensible suggestions that I've seen in a while.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I've been thinking on the Pacific support ship, eventual Choules replacement and wonder if a smallish through deck amphib, such as the Osumi or San Giogio would be suitable? I believe there are through deck variants of Singapores Endurance and the Netherlands Endurance as well.

Such a ship could switch roles rapidly from troop lift to HADR, SAR, logistics support for deployed forces, MCM support, mobile base for special forces operations, supplement the aviation and lift capabilities of the LHDs, provide a versatile platform where an LHD is over kill. Imagine an evacuation scenario where one of these goes in with SAS / 2 Commando, detachments from 6 AVN and 1 AVN, fast combat boats etc. as a path finder force for regular forces on an LHD.

Further, if the ADF does eventually go for F-35B, such ships could operate the Tigers, MRH and / or Chooks pushed off the LHDs decks, something a more conventional LPD cant do.
I feel when you get to amphib style ships with a beam of 25m + and above 16000t you may as well push the island to one side and have a full length flight deck.........................As you suggest many options in the market place.

The counter argument maybe, that once you get to the above sized ship, then go that bit further and get another Canberra LHD and get the benefits of commonality with an in service vessel.

Argh to dream.............................Volk you know not to mention that F35B flying thing


Regards S
 
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