Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Boagrius

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Can someone clarify which block SM-2ERs the Hobart's will be fitted with as it seems to me that 'block IV' would provide an unusual capability for TBM defence?
Or will they be fitted with SM-2MRs?

Even the Hunters with this block would provide a great advantage to any group or squadron they might find themselves a part of.
Last order I heard of was for SM2MR BlkIIIB's
I imagine these are what you'd find filling the VLS cells of the AWDs. I don't think they are an ideal weapon for ABM work, but an SM6 buy down the track wouldn't surprise me. Might be worth the RAN waiting for SM6 Blk1B - sounds like an absolute monster.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
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One of the requirements in modifications from the F100 hundred class was the modification of existing stowage and increases in the number of stowage facilities for thermal protective suits and life raft containers
I have not seen this requirement for the Hunter class would this not indicate other potential roles
Given the relative paucity of information about the Hunter class aside from the usual publicity handouts there are many hundreds of things we don't know, quite possibly including whether they have extra storage for cold weather equipment. Trying to determine a possible role for the Hobarts by comparing them with a class that is still in design is premature and pointless.

oldsig
 

aussienscale

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The Hobart class was modified to include ," allow cold weather operation infrastrcutre to allow deployment in Australias southern waters" exactly how far south was never suggested
I will try and find the reference and relevant discussion on this previously, but IIRC, the "allow cold weather operations" was more about environmental requirements such as aircon/heating requirements etc because we operate anywhere from the tropics to cold southern waters and winters around Southern Australia and NZ, not necessarily into the "Southern Ocean" so to speak.

The F105 baseline frigates were designed for the Med and a lot of systems were not flexible enough for our requirements and seasonal variations in our area of operations, you can sail from very cool low teens and be in tropical weather and vice versa in a matter of days.

Cheers, will try and follow up tonight
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The type 26 has a lot of flex space, I'm not sure if this would really need to be addressed, just put it in a shipping container and load it on. If you need it.

The ADV ships look very similar to what the antarctic division has leased for resupply of the bases due to the delay in the new icebreaker. Ocean shield and Ocean Protector would far more suitable for adventures down south. I would imagine they would be quite capable for those kind of roles (although, the configuration heading into 50kt winds in 12 m seas would be interesting). But if anything breaks, its cheap commercial,the hull is solid and can handle light ice, and they could probably arrange a replacement ship on lease.

Realistically if we had to send something down there, DDG's and future frigates would probably be the last resort given their tasking and needs. Ie head off a war in the Persian gulf or Chinese fleets in the South China Sea. At a pinch possibly a OPV perhaps as part of an assessment if it didn't have much else on and conditions were favorable.

Wasn't the carrier HMAS Melbourne that lost its radar and a skyhawk while exercising south of Tasmania in the 70's? Would be very hesitant to send a billion dollar aegis warship into Southern ocean unless absolutely required.
I imagine these are what you'd find filling the VLS cells of the AWDs. I don't think they are an ideal weapon for ABM work, but an SM6 buy down the track wouldn't surprise me. Might be worth the RAN waiting for SM6 Blk1B - sounds like an absolute monster.
While SM-2 can do some Terminal phase intercepts, it wouldn't be a first pick tool for the job, its a feature, not something it was designed to do. As a last ditched effort, not a bad feature.

Sm-6b1 looks ideal. Grabbing some of those would give the RAN great capability. Its basically a mini-SM-3 bkIIA. Will likely do everything the RAN would need it to do. It would give it some real reach. Both as anti-surface and anti-air.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Sm-6b1 looks ideal. Grabbing some of those would give the RAN great capability. Its basically a mini-SM-3 bkIIA. Will likely do everything the RAN would need it to do. It would give it some real reach. Both as anti-surface and anti-air.
Agree. In a climate of strained budgets and restricted VLS fitouts, SM3 may be too much of a niche capability for our needs(?). SM6 Blk1B on the other hand seems like a much more versatile weapon, and one that could be used to open up co-operative engagement and over-the-horizon targeting possibilities with aircraft like F35 and Wedgetail. To my mind this is precisely the kind of air warfare capability you want in order to counter PLAN/PLAAF AShMs and their launch aircraft.
 

Volkodav

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In a nutshell the baseline RN Type 26 is a high end multi-role platform, designed to operate effectively in high threat environments around the globe, ranging from the extremes of the North Atlantic, South Atlantic, Med, Persian Gulf etc. This is before the additional RAN requirements.

The baseline F-100 was the smallest, cheapest design AEGIS and SPY1D could be crammed into. It was intended only for the med and mid Atlantic, i.e. more temperate waters. There was a must bigger gap between the original platform design and the RANs requirements. The RAN got the ships it needed but they are quite different to their Spanish half sisters.
 

spoz

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One of the requirements in modifications from the F100 hundred class was the modification of existing stowage and increases in the number of stowage facilities for thermal protective suits and life raft containers
That had nothing to do with the area of operations; it was, rather, a requirement of the RAN under its normal policy for the holdings of such things.

Melbourne lost the radar in 1979 on passage from NZ to Sydney, ie in the middle of the Tasman, which has the potential to be one of the nastiest bits of water anywhere, given the right (or wrong) circumstances. It did not lose an A4 at that time.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
From today's Australian

For those who don't have a subscription here is an exert.
Australia’s Hunter-class frigates, Attack-class submarines ‘will be delivered on time’

Australia’s defence spending is set to rise well beyond the benchmark 2 per cent of GDP as the Morrison government declares the rebuilding of the nation’s military capabilities will not fall victim to the coronavirus.

The government has recommitted to promised defence mega-platforms, including the $80bn submarines and $35bn future frigate programs, amid signs the post-coronavirus world will be marked by heightened US-China tensions.

The declaration means defence funding will account for a larger-than-anticipated slice of GDP, as the coming coronavirus recession saps national output.

“The Morrison Government is committed to the delivery, on time and on budget, of nine Hunter-class frigates and 12 Attack-class submarines,” Defence Minister Linda Reynolds told The Australian.

She said developing Australia’s naval shipbuilding capability was a sovereign necessity and “COVID‑19 has not changed this requirement”.

Finance Minister Mathias Cormann said a coronavirus hit to GDP would not affect Defence spending.

“The Government agreed back in the 2016 Defence White Paper that there would be no further adjustments to funding as a result of changes in Australia’s GDP growth estimates,” he said.

The Finance Minister said $135bn in funding had already been locked in for the major shipbuilding programs, including the submarines, future frigates, Guardian-class patrol boats and Arafura offshore patrol vessels, and would not be wound back.

“Defence funding is forecast to reach two per cent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 2020-21, and will continue to grow beyond two per cent of GDP in subsequent years,” Senator Cormann said.

Australian Strategic Policy Institute defence budget analyst Dr Marcus Hellyer said before the coronavirus crisis Defence spending was on track to grow to 2.2 per cent of GDP by 2025-26.

“If economic growth stagnates due to coronavirus, the Defence budget conceivably gets to 2.4 or 2.5 per cent of GDP, if the government keeps to that White Paper funding line,” he said.

Dr Hellyer said even on pre-coronavirus projections, if the government strictly tied the defence budget to 2 per cent of GDP, Defence would face a $5bn-a-year funding shortfall by 2025-26.

That shortfall would grow to $10bn if the economy did not recover quickly from COVID-19.

“That’s not fewer scones at morning tea. It would mean a fundamental change to the ADF’s acquisition plan.”

Centre Alliance Senator Rex Patrick said the government would have to apply fresh pressure to the prime contractors delivering the vessels to ensure vital funds were not sent offshore.

“The government must re-examine these programs to ensure maximum local content, maximum jobs, and maximum economic activity,” the South Australian senator said.

“This is critical also for Australia’s self-reliance – something that the coronavirus has brought back to the forefront of people’s minds.”

Defence sector lobby group Industry Voice said the pandemic had demonstrated “the overwhelming need for a viable Australian industrial base to ensure that whatever challenges are thrown at this country we can ensure that we have a sovereign capability to draw on”.

The recommitment to key Defence programs follows United States’ Indo-Pacific Command funding request to congress for $20bn in new hardware to bolster deterrence against China.

The proposed extra spending on missile systems, missile defence and new radar warning systems in the “priority theatre” reflects US government concerns that military tensions with China will grow as a result of the pandemic.

Senator Reynolds said the impact of the coronavirus pandemic would feed into Defence’s updated analysis of strategic threats and new force structure plan, which are currently under development.

“The government will ensure that its strategic defence policy settings are fit for purpose in response to a range of developments in Australia’s strategic environment,” she said.

Dr Hellyer said the crisis had reaffirmed “the primary role of government is to ensure the security of its citizens”, and Australia “cannot take the assistance of allies and other parties for granted” in times of crisis.

“Anybody who continues to take unlimited US support for granted in all potential crises and conflicts may be in for a rude surprise,” he said.
The Morrison government has declared that defence rebuilding will proceed despite the damage to the economy from the Coronavirus although it is conceded that spending will need to be increased beyond 2%. New estimates will be up around 2.2% or perhaps even higher.

If anything the post-coronavirus world may be a lot more challenging with relations between China and the west set to take a nose dive over the next decade or so.
 
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Volkodav

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Verified Defense Pro
That had nothing to do with the area of operations; it was, rather, a requirement of the RAN under its normal policy for the holdings of such things.

Melbourne lost the radar in 1979 on passage from NZ to Sydney, ie in the middle of the Tasman, which has the potential to be one of the nastiest bits of water anywhere, given the right (or wrong) circumstances. It did not lose an A4 at that time.
I just had visions of filling out an L and D for a Skyhawk. Yes I am being factitious.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
I just had visions of filling out an L and D for a Skyhawk. Yes I am being factitious.
Many years ago I was a loggie supporting 5 Avn who 'lost' three Black Hawks in an anti-air ambush on Hamel.

The OT (two ranks higher) turns to me and asks what I'm going to do about getting the airframes back. I quickly throw out "raise an OPDEM" I'm expecting a kick in return (don't be stupid!) but, he accepted it. So I raised the OPDEM (finding what the part number for Helicopter, Complete, Black Hawk, Sikorsky was) and 6 h later, the three airframes came back to life...

If only real life worked like that!

***For those who don't know, an operational demand (OPDEM) has to be filled in within 6 hr, a priority demand (PRIDEM) within 24 h and a maintenance demand (MAINTDEM) within 72 h.
 

ASSAIL

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Verified Defense Pro
That had nothing to do with the area of operations; it was, rather, a requirement of the RAN under its normal policy for the holdings of such things.

Melbourne lost the radar in 1979 on passage from NZ to Sydney, ie in the middle of the Tasman, which has the potential to be one of the nastiest bits of water anywhere, given the right (or wrong) circumstances. It did not lose an A4 at that time.
On 24/9/79 A4 886 was lost in the Tasman. It rolled off Melbournes deck while being repositioned when holding chains parted. The ship took a surprise 20deg roll and one maintenance sailor, in the cockpit and later recovered, went overboard with the aircraft.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
On 24/9/79 A4 886 was lost in the Tasman. It rolled off Melbournes deck while being repositioned when holding chains parted. The ship took a surprise 20deg roll and one maintenance sailor, in the cockpit and later recovered, went overboard with the aircraft.
Jesus I bet he had to change his pants when they got him back onboard, very lucky he didn’t go down with the plane.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
On 24/9/79 A4 886 was lost in the Tasman. It rolled off Melbournes deck while being repositioned when holding chains parted. The ship took a surprise 20deg roll and one maintenance sailor, in the cockpit and later recovered, went overboard with the aircraft.
Indeed. Chris, I can't remember when exactly we lost the radar; late October wasn't it? I'm not sure if Melbourne's ROPs for that period are available or not.
 

oldsig127

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Verified Defense Pro
Indeed. Chris, I can't remember when exactly we lost the radar; late October wasn't it? I'm not sure if Melbourne's ROPs for that period are available or not.
Here's the way she looked on return to Sydney. Apparently the LW04 antenna had recently been fitted and was lost because the same mounting hardware had been used as for the lighter LW02. It was replaced by an LW02 recovered from one of the destroyers (Vampre or Vendetta)

oldsig

 

spoz

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Verified Defense Pro
Vendetta, she was paying off, unfortunately. They had a sign on the wharf when the ship got back saying something like “free to any CVS needing one”.

I’d forgotten it was before the A4 incident; and I seem to remember we lost an SK 50 about the same time.

I remember being told that they had used mild steel bolts when mounting it, and these had corroded. It fell outboard, which was a pretty good outcome, considering. If it had gone onboard it would have collected a helo and probably some people.
 
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Takao

The Bunker Group
Vendetta, she was paying off, unfortunately. They had a sign on the wharf when the ship got back saying something like “free to any CVS needing one”.

I’d forgotten it was before the A4 incident; and I seem to remember we lost an SK 50 about the same time.

I remember being told that they had used mild steel bolts when mounting it, and these had corroded. It fell outboard, which was a pretty good outcome, considering. If it had gone onboard it would have collected a helo and probably some people.
A bloke I worked for back in 2010/11 was a former RAN boffin sailor. One day he got tasked to do some work on Melbourne's radar. As he climbs up he realises the ladder just got a whole bunch shorter. He was a little pale when reporting back to his Chief, who, at least initially, was a little annoyed he hadn't done the job on the radar.

"But there is no radar Chief..."
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
The names of the next five Arafura class have been announced:


In order they are: HMAS Eyre, HMAS Pilbara, HMAS Gippsland, HMAS Illawarra and HMAS Carpentaria.

Cheers,
 
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spoz

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What is wrong with using something that's been used before? At least Carpentaria has some history. For the others' it's almost as if the current management wants to separate the RAN from its traditions.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
On 24/9/79 A4 886 was lost in the Tasman. It rolled off Melbournes deck while being repositioned when holding chains parted. The ship took a surprise 20deg roll and one maintenance sailor, in the cockpit and later recovered, went overboard with the aircraft.
For those of us that have a copy of HMAS Melbourne 25 years, by Ross Gillett (published 1980), there are a couple of good photos of Melbourne traveling in the Southern Ocean, pounding it's way through very heavy seas, one shot has the bow almost completely out of the water:


There is also a second photo of the bow crashing down to flight deck level too (unfortunately I can't find that one).

Cheers,

Edit: I just found them:

https://flic.kr/p/6TDPPX
https://flic.kr/p/6THPdm
https://flic.kr/p/6TDM5r
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
For those of us that have a copy of HMAS Melbourne 25 years, by Ross Gillett (published 1980), there are a couple of good photos of Melbourne traveling in the Southern Ocean, pounding it's way through very heavy seas, one shot has the bow almost completely out of the water:


There is also a second photo of the bow crashing down to flight deck level too (unfortunately I can't find that one).

Cheers,

Edit: I just found them:

https://flic.kr/p/6TDPPX
https://flic.kr/p/6THPdm
https://flic.kr/p/6TDM5r
I was in her on that trip. It looks a little worse than it felt.
We were on an Indian Ocean deployment, our navigator chose a direct line course from Bass Str. to Cape Leeuwin, HMAS Supply decided to be clever and take the Great Circle route and she got hammered by a Low enroute, arrived in Fremantle with the forward cargo hatch flooded, not a huge problem except the entire deployment beer was stowed there in cartons. Those were the days when Reschs Pilsner was the favoured choice, 26oz steel cans.
You can imagine the cluster f.
 
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