Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[alexsa]

US Navy proposes decommissioning first 4 LCS more than a decade early

A Pentagon proposal would retire the first four LCS in an effort to save money.

www.defensenews.com

The two steel-hulled Freedom vessels have more potential in my opinion, as they're practically identical in size to an ANZAC frigate but their aluminium superstructure is sure to reduce the centre of gravity issues found in the ANZACS. As such, i would fit the Freedom's with 2x8 Mk41 strike-length VLS for 8x LRASM/32x ESSM, in the modular space used for the twin aft Mk46 30mm guns as well as NULKA launchers immediately forward of the VLS as has been alluded to in the past for retrofit into existing vessels, b. remove the Hellfire VLS and RAM launcher and replace with a single 40mm Oto Marlin RCWS to help mitigate the added top-weight of the Mk41's and provide an aft facing gun, c. replace the TRS-3D and modify the forward mast for a Vampir-NG IRST, ES-3701 ESM and a navalized version of the lightweight CEAOPS radar with four smaller fixed X-band faces rather than C-band in the Army version for ESSM/SM-2 illumination/short range surveillance + the same single larger slewed/rotating dual S/L-band array for long range surveillance, d. add the Saab 9LV Australian tactical interface to the COMBATSS-21 combat system. Retain most of everything else like the 57mm gun, EO/IR sensors.

ASW would be a toss up for me, twin MH-60R's is fantastic and they've fiddled around with a few towed arrays including CAPTAS4, but I don't think much thought of acoustic dampening was put into a design meant to fly at 45kts. If an active hull mounted sonar like Kingklip Mk2 could be fitted that wouldn't severely interfere with the crafts high speed then i would do so along with two topside Mk32 triple tube mounts for MU90 either side and aft of the 57mm gun. If that were unfeasible you could fit a quad pair of RGM-184 Naval Strike Missile in the same locations as the proposed Mk32 SVTT's, and just use them as giant fast attack craft/missile boats with potential loadout of 24x AShM's.

Firstly Oldsig is bang on. Secondly the 'upgrade' you are proposing is significant and expensive. All of this would need to be integrated into the vessels CMS ... which being based on Aegis elements is not the same as our current systems. Even the radars proposed are not in our current inventory and need to be modified. In addition this things chew fuel at 40knots and this is not a speed they can maintain without support.

And I will go back to my mantra ...... you cannot simply bolt stuff on a vessel. All added gear has structural impacts as well as the need for wiring and services. It is all expensive and really simply not worth it. Spend the money on the curret hulls in scope.

 

[Redlands18]

disregard post

 

[JBRobbo]

Thanks for the input guys. It was purely speculative based on the unusual opportunity to buy such young ships presumably cheaply, and possible ways to turn a sows ear into a silk purse. What an enormous failure the LCS program was.

 

[Stampede]

The Submarine debate continues today with a comment by Hugh White in the Startegist ( ASPI )

Australia’s Attack-class submarines need competition | The Strategist

Australia’s strategic circumstances over the next few decades will mean we cannot afford to be without a submarine capability. But that’s an area in which we are terribly vulnerable. Serious concerns have been raised over ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

With large amounts of money to be spent on keeping the economy afloat due to the current health scare, such conversations about expensive submarines will need to be handled well to avert public displeasure.

Submarine construct may not be the top news item today,but it may be if this public debate continues.

I don't see this conversation going away any time soon; regardless of whether followers on DT like it or not.


Regards S

 

[StingrayOZ]

Collins needs an upgrade anyway, so the competition and the back up plan would basically be Collins 2.0.

Re-engine (MTU's for the win)
Re-system (latest combat)
Re-sensor (again we are doing this anyway)
Re-battery (replace the LV and the propulsion setup).

and Collins would still be a formidable platform going into the future. We already operate 6.

If you want to light a fire under the frenchies, have ASC start their "practice welds" on a new Collins hull and see how far we get before the Attack is finished. Worst case scenario we end up with a training Collins. Remembering historical refits on submarines are ~70% new costs.


Ice breaker news.

Final voyage of icebreaker Aurora Australis departs – Australian Antarctic Program (News 2020)

The final voyage of Australia’s Antarctic icebreaker RSV Aurora Australis departs Hobart today for sub-Antarctic Macquarie Island.

www.antarctica.gov.au

Aurora last visit to Antartica. Nuyina is delayed 19 weeks and will arrive in Hobart in November. Some other ship will be contracted for the the space in bewteen.

 

[John Fedup]

The Submarine debate continues today with a comment by Hugh White in the Startegist ( ASPI )

Australia’s Attack-class submarines need competition | The Strategist

Australia’s strategic circumstances over the next few decades will mean we cannot afford to be without a submarine capability. But that’s an area in which we are terribly vulnerable. Serious concerns have been raised over ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

With large amounts of money to be spent on keeping the economy afloat due to the current health scare, such conversations about expensive submarines will need to be handled well to avert public displeasure.

Submarine construct may not be the top news item today,but it may be if this public debate continues.

I don't see this conversation going away any time soon; regardless of whether followers on DT like it or not.


Regards S

The large amounts of promised cash for COVID-19 relief by junior is a big concern here, especially as he is already running huge deficits annually since he came into office. It doesn’t take much guessing as to which government portfolio will have to sacrifice funding.

 

[Stampede]

The large amounts of promised cash for COVID-19 relief by junior is a big concern here, especially as he is already running huge deficits annually since he came into office. It doesn’t take much guessing as to which government portfolio will have to sacrifice funding.

No doubt some belt tightening across many department with defence on that list.
Fingers crossed this situation does not get ugly for both the health and economy for our respective nations.

Regards S

 

[John Fedup]

No doubt some belt tightening across many department with defence on that list.
Fingers crossed this situation does not get ugly for both the health and economy for our respective nations.

Regards S

Unfortunately it is very likely to be ugly for both nations. We could be looking at a North American shutdown of at least two months so the economic consequences will be immense. Hopefully the health aspect of this crisis fares better.

 

[Takao]

The Submarine debate continues today with a comment by Hugh White in the Startegist ( ASPI )

Australia’s Attack-class submarines need competition | The Strategist

Australia’s strategic circumstances over the next few decades will mean we cannot afford to be without a submarine capability. But that’s an area in which we are terribly vulnerable. Serious concerns have been raised over ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

With large amounts of money to be spent on keeping the economy afloat due to the current health scare, such conversations about expensive submarines will need to be handled well to avert public displeasure.

Submarine construct may not be the top news item today,but it may be if this public debate continues.

I don't see this conversation going away any time soon; regardless of whether followers on DT like it or not.


Regards S

Perhaps.

But with clever PR, solid work and a rejigging of priorities, Defence actually offers a huge advantage - a cash injection needle into critical industries. It can act as a stimulus package that buys real capability. If I was a Defence company that made stuff in Australia, I'd be reminding my uniformed points of contact that I can help.

If MINDEF says to the PM "I can put $x b into the economy in the next 12 - 24 months", what do you think Cabinet will say?

 

[Volkodav]

Perhaps.

But with clever PR, solid work and a rejigging of priorities, Defence actually offers a huge advantage - a cash injection needle into critical industries. It can act as a stimulus package that buys real capability. If I was a Defence company that made stuff in Australia, I'd be reminding my uniformed points of contact that I can help.

If MINDEF says to the PM "I can put $x b into the economy in the next 12 - 24 months", what do you think Cabinet will say?

Just imagine if the GFC stimulus had included a fourth DDG, expansion of the Osborne shoplift to handle AOR sized vessels and acceleration of the AOR and submarine projects?

 

[oldsig127]

Just imagine if the GFC stimulus had included a fourth DDG, expansion of the Osborne shoplift to handle AOR sized vessels and acceleration of the AOR and submarine projects?

Sounds ideal, but as a glass half full person I see it as - imagine if the funding for Osborne had been diverted to building real Taj Mahal school halls and rectifying the faults rather than finishing the DDGs we did get?

I'll be thankfull for small mercies and hope they DO see it @Takao 's way and spend some extra gelt on Defence infrastructure and equipment we do need and that can be rolled out quickly even though currently unfunded. Maybe this time you'll get your wish Volko. I hope so

I wonder how fast for modern oil storage farms to hold the reserves we should already have, and how many workers, etc?..

oldsig

 

[Volkodav]

Sounds ideal, but as a glass half full person I see it as - imagine if the funding for Osborne had been diverted to building real Taj Mahal school halls and rectifying the faults rather than finishing the DDGs we did get?

I'll be thankfull for small mercies and hope they DO see it @Takao 's way and spend some extra gelt on Defence infrastructure and equipment we do need and that can be rolled out quickly even though currently unfunded. Maybe this time you'll get your wish Volko. I hope so

I wonder how fast for modern oil storage farms to hold the reserves we should already have, and how many workers, etc?..

oldsig

Within weeks of the stimulus kicking off we saw a freeze on recruiting for AWD that slowed the project and increased costs. Known issues, such as neither helo option being compatible with the DDG were ignored instead of funded and fixed. There were problems that there were solutions for that funding was removed from, creating bigger problems that cost more to fix down the track.

The worst thing was while the cause was cuts preventing the mitigation of known issues and creating new problems (including making skilled people redundant), the solution was to give an overseas ship builder buckets of money to come here and tell more experienced and qualified people how to suck eggs.

All they had to do was not cut the budget or stretch the build (which ended up costing more), keep the workforce growing, keep improving the infrastructure and order the fourth ship. The entire black hole could have been avoided, bringing Navantia in could have been avoided, building the AORs overseas could have been avoided.

By not spending some of the stimulus to keep the momentum going on shipbuilding we paid more for less, had a black hole, and needed to rebuild the capability again a decade later.

 

[oldsig127]

By not spending some of the stimulus to keep the momentum going on shipbuilding we paid more for less, had a black hole, and needed to rebuild the capability again a decade later.

Agree absolutely with all of that. The rundown at Osborne to "save money" was always a disgrace with predictable results that need not have happened. Maybe (and I get perilously close to politics her), the current government is in a better position to use the national ship building plan (and defence is general) as a means of boosting the economy and building capability than the Rudd government was, because their support does not rely on quite so many folk who get a nose bleed over every dollar spent on "war machines".

It will take some serious argument from many quarters to have the "War Cabinet" consider it, and some skilled PR and strong leadership to sell the idea to the public in general. I'm in, even if the outcome is un-sexy fuel-tanks and tankers rather than tanks and guns, port facilities rather than ships and subs and so on.

oldsig

 

[aussienscale]

Just imagine if the GFC stimulus had included a fourth DDG, expansion of the Osborne shoplift to handle AOR sized vessels and acceleration of the AOR and submarine projects?

You know I have always thought there is some good room for a larger dock on the south of the current CUF ! Keep the current lift for what we already have in place for the continuous build program and build a larger facility, either a graving dock or slipway for the purpose of building our larger ship requirements such as LHD, LSD, AOR etc we have a big enough fleet that between build programs across the larger vessels that we can also fill the gap with docking and maintenance split between there and FBE ?

You then have the split between all of that and what we have in place for FBE, FBW, and Osborne for the remainder of the fleet, Pacific support vessel, Nuyina, Sycamore etc.

Also add to that Customs, Pacific Patrol Boats and the list goes on !

Just my little rant

Cheers

 

[FoxtrotRomeo999]

Don't forget we also need to replenish our strategic oil reserves.

 

[John Fedup]

Don't forget we also need to replenish our strategic oil reserves.

Great time for replenishing given the collapse of oil pricing. Pricing for regular gasoline in Toronto has gone from about $1.20 to under $0.80 per litre over the last two months.

 

[ngatimozart]

This CIVID-19 crisis is going to create an economic crisis far greater than the 2008 GFC or even Black Monday of 1987 and could lead to something like the Great Depression. Although the causes are different, the end results could be the same with the breakdown of world trade due to the virus impacting on transportation and logistics. That is something that cannot be avoided and yes mistakes were made by the GOTD in 2008. In 1987 the Reserve Bank of NZ made a huge mistake by stubbornly refusing to lower the interest rate and subjected NZ to 6 years of severe depression before our economy finally recovered. I would argue that NZDF has been paying the price ever since. My question is would the current GOTD in Canberra read the tea leaves correctly and invest more money in the ship and sub building infrastructure and programs as well as other required strategic infrastructure?

 

[Redlands18]

This CIVID-19 crisis is going to create an economic crisis far greater than the 2008 GFC or even Black Monday of 1987 and could lead to something like the Great Depression. Although the causes are different, the end results could be the same with the breakdown of world trade due to the virus impacting on transportation and logistics. That is something that cannot be avoided and yes mistakes were made by the GOTD in 2008. In 1987 the Reserve Bank of NZ made a huge mistake by stubbornly refusing to lower the interest rate and subjected NZ to 6 years of severe depression before our economy finally recovered. I would argue that NZDF has been paying the price ever since. My question is would the current GOTD in Canberra read the tea leaves correctly and invest more money in the ship and sub building infrastructure and programs as well as other required strategic infrastructure?

The Reserve Bank of Australia cut interests rates to 0.25% this afternoon.

 

[oldsig127]

My question is would the current GOTD in Canberra read the tea leaves correctly and invest more money in the ship and sub building infrastructure and programs as well as other required strategic infrastructure?

Pretty much the same question discussed since the previous page, pretty much with the conclusion that it would be a damned good idea - if only the GOTD can be convinced of it, and they can get the value of it across to the great unwashed who might rather have individual Merino wool bogroll holders.

oldsig

 

[Volkodav]

Pretty much the same question discussed since the previous page, pretty much with the conclusion that it would be a damned good idea - if only the GOTD can be convinced of it, and they can get the value of it across to the great unwashed who might rather have individual Merino wool bogroll holders.

oldsig

Sadly I believe the entire toilet paper hording affair has demonstrated the lack of intellect within the general populous. While they were taking eight months worth of bog rolls I was satisfied with the pack of nine in my bathroom and more worried about having some long life milk, tinned food and a full freezer. Now the morons have realised that food may be an issue I'm fine and the shelves of long life stuff are empty, strangely there is still plenty of fresh stuff which is what we are enjoying now.

If any of them had half a brain they would realise the issue is the panic buying, not any actual shortages. They are literally stripping the shelves faster than staff can restock them and delivery trucks can get them from the distribution centres. The morons are literally emptying shelves faster than they an be restocked from the ample stocks through the supply chain.

If they cant understand simple logistics, how can you possibly explain lead times, training, infrastructure and how spending more up front save money in the long term. These people created a shortage of toilet paper on supermarket shelves, I'm not sure they should be allowed out on their own, let alone allowed to drive or vote.