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Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by icelord, Feb 13, 2007.

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  1. seaspear

    seaspear Member

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    I dont believe I would be wrong to suggest that if a need for a higher level of AAW was identified ., then a future stage of the frigates build program could me modified to increase that capability and capacity
     
  2. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

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    I just hope both parties can remain consistent and take a lot of the destructive politics out of it. How many defence ministers have we had over the past 15 years? Part of the problem lies there.

    I think the future has defence, in particular naval ship building integrated into Australia in a non-removable way. Which is great, and will flow benefits to everyone and all services. I recall something about the Bushmasters armour plate being either developed from submarine steel (or some process or technology used for submarine steel) or the process to join and shape it. GT engines, systems, integration also will flow onto the RAAF.

    That kind of build commitment is also going to mean a lot to small and big allies a like.

    For states like SA and WA, it will mean a huge amount to them. But the work share is national.

    I think the only ones that will be annoyed, is those working against Australia's and the regions interests.
     
  3. MickB

    MickB Member

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    Curious about the division of taskings once the RAN has a mix of both Anzac and Hunter class ships.

    A. Will the Hunters, with their superior sensor and weapon fit do the solo missions. Leaving the Anzacs to team with the AWDs to form escort groups for the LHDs etc.

    Or

    B. Will the Hunters with their superior ASW suite be the prime escort for the LHDs.

    Not talking about contested areas, in that case I would assume it would be all available hands on deck.
    But in general day to day operations.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
  4. hauritz

    hauritz Active Member

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    All the big defence decisions have already been made and everything has been mapped out for the next 30 years. At this stage I don't see either political party wanting to interfere with these programs because it could either cost them votes in some key electorates or would incur some pretty hefty financial penalties if they try to renege on existing contracts.
     
  5. ASSAIL

    ASSAIL Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    The tasking will depend on the operation and the strategic/tactical circumstance however, if you’re talking about ME deployments I would be amazed if an 8,500 ASW escort would be deployed for that role while the Anzacs are still around.
    Who knows what the world situation will be in the 2040s once all the Anzacs are gone.

    The Hunters are the primary surface ASW asset and as such would always be assigned to those duties in a TG.

    However, I’m sure a bit of flag waving, soft diplomacy will come their way on a regular basis.
     
  6. alexsa

    alexsa Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    I suspect we may see the OPVs range further as they would be well suited to drug interdiction role if they carried a containerised UAV. It would really depend on the nature of the task and the threat .
     
  7. Stampede

    Stampede Active Member

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    Agree

    It will be very interesting as to how this new class of ship are used.
    I'm sure they will be regular visitors / ambassadors to our near neighbours

    Regards S.
     
  8. MickB

    MickB Member

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    Given the larger physical size and smaller crew of the Hunters, how would it impact on the livability on a deployment like this.
    Do such issues have a great impact on crew retention.
     
  9. ASSAIL

    ASSAIL Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    I’m not current with these issues but I would have thought that thr new frigates size would provide much more comfortable messing conditions.
    By way of comparison the mess decks, wardroom, and CPO/PO messes on the old DDGs were atrocious and the Vietnam deployments were just as long but from my experience and from what I heard, most of those who served in them would choose them over a pissant T12 every time.
    I think you join up to serve, not to enjoy a luxury seagoing experience.
     
    ozrock62, Cadredave and ngatimozart like this.
  10. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

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    The new ships would be I imagine quite a lot more livable. More space everywhere, walk ways, toilets, mess areas, accommodation, they have a huge internal flex space and a sizeable hanger and aft deck. They are also designed to embark something like up to 72 soldiers, so when not doing that, they would have some space, which is useful for things like training crews, embarked media, deployment related specialists, intel, etc, which tend to eat into regular accommodations. Or upgrades. Those new VLS tubes will go through the gym area and toilet number 2, and we have converted that small storage space into a server rack, so everyone has to sleep with a sack of flour.

    I imagine they would be particularly suited to long deployments, and I recall in conversation they were looking at things like fly in fly out crewing in the UK for their middle east deployments.

    With more time at sea and long deployments it can become an issue. While old salty dogs may disagree, we also no longer just have stacks of hammocks 6 high and serve a piece of tack and a cup of water. There is an expectation that ships can be flexible and do many things.

    I think its less about luxury but just space. Often at an extreme premium, particularly on things like subs. One of the comments when I toured a Collins with a dozen O-boat sailors is they all said Collins in some spots was tighter and more packed than the o-boats ever were, even on big trips (like commissioning sails or long patrols). In some ways things had gone much further forward, in others things had gone backwards. Systems and services had gobbled up all that extra displacement.
     
  11. seaspear

    seaspear Member

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    B.A.E. in its 3 d simulator had claimed that ergonomics could be factored in the designs you could imagine that equipment and tasks could be assessed in such a way to avoid hazardous manual handling and find other efficiencies . Legislation covering this may be under Comcares Occupational overuse syndrome this is different to W.H.S legislation
     
  12. Milne Bay

    Milne Bay Member

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    I am not a sailor and my only experience of submarines has been tours of one Foxtrot and one of the "O" boats - ex HMAS Otway I think.
    I could not believe how little space was available inside them. Inside Otway, I became quite claustrophobic and couldn't get out fast enough. I am not normally that bad and handled the Cu Chi tunnels near Saigon very well :)
    If the Collins class are tighter than the "O" boats then that's a real squeeze.
    MB
     
  13. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong. The o boats aren't spacious. You can feel the hull is much much smaller. But the openings seem easier to get through although there are many more of them. The Oboats feel like nearly everything is mounted on the hull so there is this bigger feel in many of the spaces. By bigger it is still like the movie Das boot, but there is more central space.

    Collins feels like it is just chock full of stuff, and the narrowest passageways possible are put in. If you are any reasonable size, you have to walk shoulder first shuffling between much of the equipment in the main passageways.

    Maybe it was because everyone was expecting "bigger" but collins is bloody tight in many sections. Oddly the toilets felt humongous, and you don't have to have your legs in the corridor. But other parts felt extremely tight.
     
  14. alexsa

    alexsa Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    The Collins Class have a lot more internal space than the O boats and certainly the sleeping arrangements and a quantum leap. I am not sure why anybody would describe the Collins as tighter. An O boat rigged for patrol was packed with additional kit and crew with food, belongings and other stuff stored everywhere. Even one of the four traps (toilets) was used to house a shredder in some cases.

    The bunks in the passage way on a O boat restrict access as you have to avoid bumping folk and the eating arrangements are diabolical for the crew.

    Ovens and Onslow are both on display and they seem very open when not filled with crew and ‘stuff’ ..... you just get used to it!
     
  15. ASSAIL

    ASSAIL Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Whilst I was not a submariner I did spend some time in them and particularly the Brit O boat Onslaught during. A three week exercise in the Far East. We surfaced once.
    The most awkward thing was the traps, to pee one had to bend over backwards to follow the curve of the hull, which makes aiming hit and miss:) and that legendary use of toilet paper, “one up, one down and one to polish”.(so that a trail of dunny paper doesn’t give away your position)
    The smell of sweat and dieso permeates the entire boat and takes weeks to remove from your uniforms, hot bunking is never a problem in those conditions.
    I haven’t been on a Collins but have seen photographs and I can assure our listeners that their conditions are a vast improvement on Their predecessors.
     
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  16. hairyman

    hairyman Member

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    Let us hope that the creature comforts of the crew are being taken under consideration in the planning for our new subs.
     
  17. old faithful

    old faithful Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Much respect to the submariners.
    Really makes being a paratrooper a bit ordinary. Those blokes earn every penny they get, and I hope its plenty! I imagine the camaraderie would be outstanding, and only they would know and understand.
     
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  18. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

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    I guess my point was, that even though Collins is a massive improvement and much more modern than the o-boats and physically larger, it is hardly luxurious and is not wasteful in its space. They are different. Sure there are less bulk head doors, but the doors on collins seemed more awkward to get through. It ain't no surface ship. But it feels like a different century to the o-boats.

    Certainly in comparison to large nuclear boats. People were still sleeping on top of or underneath torpedoes, you are still in close quarters with people. Many spaces are still tight and you other complexities like more computers and systems, mixed gender crew. Sure collins even has a gym, they proudly showed me the rowing machine they had tucked away under the torpedos, which they can pull out and use in corridor. They also had a nifty toilet/sink combo in the engine room.

    But it isn't like you see on say the US submarine.

    [​IMG]
    Just chillin practicing yoga and telling yarns in the gym in the sub on a Virginia class.

    I am sure a near 9000t surface ship sounds like a cruise ship for those that served on ships built immediately post WW2. But I am sure in the end it will be fitted with more stuff and crew luxuries will be an improvement but fairly minimal.

    I hope the new subs are a bit roomier.
     
  19. alexsa

    alexsa Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Mate that gym ..... is the torpedo compartment. They are midships on USN SSNs as this means the tubes don't interfere with the Bow sonar. The water tight doors on an O boat are wide and the passage ways a smidge wider ......... but that is because they are a living space. The only enclose living space not in a acces way as the Super Chiefs tram car for three in front of the wardroom (next the sink ammusingly referred to as the wardroom pantry), the Wardroom (for three), the Senior sails mess (six I think) and the captains cabin (his feet jut out of his cabin into a covered box by the plot table and the after periscope round about). This means at any time when moving through the boat you are dealing with moving humanity.

    God help you as Nav if you don't get out of your bunk at action stations in a hurry .... it is at floor level outside the wardroom and every bugger is running past there.
     
  20. Stampede

    Stampede Active Member

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    Lucky enough to go through an O boat having a visit in Geelong of all places some decades ago.
    Certainly a tight fit for all, but it was the prevalent smell of fuel and oil that stood out for me.
    Hats off to the crew and those who serve.

    Regards S