Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[hauritz]

The future frigate will be just part of the mix of P-8s, helos, submarines, frigates and possibly even UUVs.

Ultimately the role of the frigate might be to just support ASW operations rather than participate directly in them. This could be as a platform for helos and UUVs, a command centre or providing area air defence so that the other assets can go about their tasks unhindered.

When you look at it like that it is hard to justify looking beyond the F-5000.

 

[ASSAIL]

The future frigate will be just part of the mix of P-8s, helos, submarines, frigates and possibly even UUVs.

Ultimately the role of the frigate might be to just support ASW operations rather than participate directly in them. This could be as a platform for helos and UUVs, a command centre or providing area air defence so that the other assets can go about their tasks unhindered.

When you look at it like that it is hard to justify looking beyond the F-5000.

I think your your last comment understates the importance of understanding the various advantages and disadvantages of each of the competing frigates and I think you have underplayed their ongoing importance to ASW.
In a network centric orbat each platform will play a part and each must be considered both in isolation and on its contribution to the whole.
However you are correct that in some circumstances the Frigate may well play only a supporting role.

The RAN, like the other services in the ADF, has been proactive in ensuring the whole of the ADF is rapidly maturing to network centric Warfare/SA and we are probably ahead of some European navies.
platforms such as P8, MH60, F35A and networks such as CEC and hopefully NIF CA all point towards the future force completely connected and the future Frigate has to be capable of contributing to and enhancing those SA and response activities.

 

[hauritz]

Maybe the selection battle is entering the final weeks ...
Nocookies
For those unable to penetrate the firewall let me summarise ...

Later this month, or perhaps next, cabinet’s powerful National Security Committee will convene in Parliament House in Canberra. The exact date, like the subject matter of NSC meetings, is shrouded in secrecy.

Nine ministers, covering all the key security and economic portfolios, will file into the room that day, including Malcolm Turnbull, who will chair the meeting, and Defence Minister Marise Payne. Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne, who is not normally on the committee, will attend the meeting, along with key defence personnel and departmental secretaries. The Chief of Defence, Mark Binskin, will certainly be there, as will Kim Gillis, the Defence Department’s deputy secretary for capability acquisition and sustainment.

If there’s a clear standout, sources say it’s likely one option would be recommended.

If it’s a closer race, officials may rule out one bid and leave it to the committee to choose between the remaining two.

I find myself wondering if it will be a clear-cut decision. If it is then I suspect that the F-5000 will get up. If it isn't then I genuinely would have no idea which ship will be selected.

BAE had this to say about the opposition.

“The Italians have an old frigate, and the Spanish don’t have an anti-submarine warfare frigate. They are using a different hull and they are going to try to reverse-engineer that ASW capability.”

According to defence procurement rules, bidders are not supposed to make negative comments about the opposition. That BAE has said this might be a sign of desperation on their part. In response, both the Italians and Spanish have taken the high ground preferring to just promote their own vessels.

Australian Strategic Policy Institute’s Marcus Hellyer making some comments on the finalists.

The BAE design is “probably the most modern”, he says, with “potentially the best ASW capability”. But its key disadvantage is that none of the boats was yet in the water.

Hellyer also questions BAE’s claim to have “de-risked” its bid because the Royal Navy’s program to build eight of the vessels is five years ahead.

The Navantia bid is “more of a known quantity”, as it would involve “rolling over” the work being done by the company on the Hobart class air warfare destroyer.

“But it’s an older design and it wasn’t designed primarily as an ASW platform. So there are some questions about your ability to future-proof that design,” Hellyer says. The FREMM is “more of a happy medium”, he adds — a purpose-designed ASW frigate, newer than the Navantia design but probably not quite as cutting-edge as the BAE Type 26.

“The FREMM was designed as an ASW platform, so it has probably got pretty good ASW capability, but it appears not to have as many vertical launch cells as the others, so it might not be quite as flexible in an air defence role or an anti-surface role.”

It seems a reasonable summation of the final 3. They really are fairly different designs. On paper the type 26 looks the best option with it being designed from the outset as an ASW vessel and with a useful missile loadout but unfortunately, that is where it still is ... on paper.

I don't find myself particularly drawn to the FREMM. It maybe a good ASW frigate but it seems a little lacking in the air defence role.

The Hobart is a known quantity but probably not as capable an ASW as the other contenders. More a General Purpose ship IMO.

The story finishes up by once again emphasising the role of ASW and networking.

Anti-submarine warfare is a combination of three factors, experts say: self-noise, sonar and helicopters.

All of the vessels will have towed sonar arrays, and one or two hull-mounted sonars. Each will have at least one helicopter, although the FREMM is arguing the benefits of having two.

This leaves ship acoustics. The Italians and the British are both offering purpose-designed ASW ships, where every component is designed to be quiet, and rated acoustically.

As BAE pointed out somewhat impolitely, there are question marks over the F-5000’s suitability for the Future Frigate’s stated purpose as a submarine hunter, because it was designed without acoustics as a top-line priority.

Having a louder ship gives the hunted submarine more of a chance to become the hunter.

However, much has also been made of the fact that modern warfare is about processing information and transmitting it to friendly forces.

“ASW is increasingly not just about how good that individual ship is, but how well it fits into a broader network,” ASPI’s Hellyer says.

That network consists not just of the ship and the sensors on the ship, its towed sonar and helicopters, but also P-8 Maritime Patrol Aircraft, seabed sonar arrays and other vessels in a taskforce group, he said.

“So there is all this information floating around, and it may not necessarily any more be about how quiet that individual ship is, but how well do you feed into that network, process it, and turn it into a picture of the battles space.”

 

[ASSAIL]

Maybe the selection battle is entering the final weeks ...
Nocookies
For those unable to penetrate the firewall let me summarise ...


I find myself wondering if it will be a clear-cut decision. If it is then I suspect that the F-5000 will get up. If it isn't then I genuinely would have no idea which ship will be selected.

BAE had this to say about the opposition.



According to defence procurement rules, bidders are not supposed to make negative comments about the opposition. That BAE has said this might be a sign of desperation on their part. In response, both the Italians and Spanish have taken the high ground preferring to just promote their own vessels.

Australian Strategic Policy Institute’s Marcus Hellyer making some comments on the finalists.


It seems a reasonable summation of the final 3. They really are fairly different designs. On paper the type 26 looks the best option with it being designed from the outset as an ASW vessel and with a useful missile loadout but unfortunately, that is where it still is ... on paper.

I don't find myself particularly drawn to the FREMM. It maybe a good ASW frigate but it seems a little lacking in the air defence role.

The Hobart is a known quantity but probably not as capable an ASW as the other contenders. More a General Purpose ship IMO.

The story finishes up by once again emphasising the role of ASW and networking.

The arrogance of BAE Systems is mind boggling. It wouldn't be as bad if they had a track record of excellence in recent ship building but unfortunately for the RN and to a lesser extent the RAN that's not the case.

Further let's not forget cost. If history sets a precedence the cheapest option will prevail and you can bet your house that it won't be BAE.

Im comfortable with whichever the NSC chooses as all will serve the RAN well but for reasons of commonality my head says Navantia.

 

[Boagrius]

The talk of commonality between the Navantia offering and the Hobart class got me thinking - how likely are we to see a replacement of SPY-1 on the AWD's?

Is it conceivable that a future CEA or suitably scaled SPY6 iteration could take its place or are we likely to stick with SPY-1 for life-of-type?

 

[spoz]

Conceivable? Certainly. Likely? Check back in 10 years or so. At the moment the RAN is still coming to grips with SPY-1 and Aegis.

 

[Boagrius]

Conceivable? Certainly. Likely? Check back in 10 years or so. At the moment the RAN is still coming to grips with SPY-1 and Aegis.

Fair enough. Occurred to me that the commonality between the Navantia FF and AWDs could also dovetail into some convergence of their AAW fitouts down the track. All just spitballing on my part of course.

 

[76mmGuns]

Is it possible we might be better off buying more P8's than frigates, for the ASW ? Australia has a huge area of ocean to patrol. Just compare the number of P1's Japan has in comparison to us.

 

[Todjaeger]

Is it possible we might be better off buying more P8's than frigates, for the ASW ? Australia has a huge area of ocean to patrol. Just compare the number of P1's Japan has in comparison to us.

A P-8 has a rather difficult time maintaining a presence away from base for days or weeks at a time. Also a P-8 can do SFA about providing any air defence for the SLOC and/or deployed task force.

While one might consider a specific capability of greater importance, one also needs to remember that the different forces are (or need to be) complimentary.

 

[ASSAIL]

In news just coming to hand, Lurssen has broken off negotiations with Austal for the OPV contract and Civmec will do all the work.

Wait for the bleats from the WA mafia

Henderson based shipbuilder Austal cut out of $3 billion Australian Navy patrol boat contract | PerthNow

 

[Stampede]

I wonder if the OPV build timetable is effected by this announcement.

On a positive note, we now have in service 13 Armidale patrol boats complimented by 10 Cape Class vessels of a similar size. While not OPV's, some 23 patrol vessels is a significant force for the task of policing our northern coastline.
Will be interesting to see how defence and boarder force build their relationship into the future.

Regarding the Lurssen OPV, there is an interesting article in this months DTR Magazine about the future ships Combat Management System and Fire control Director.
While not wanting to read to much into it, this systems claimed ability to track four concurrent targets which includes sea skimming missile appears most impressive.Will be very interested as to what is selected for the main gun and therefore what defence it provides for the ship.

Regards S

 

[Joe Black]

I wonder if the OPV build timetable is effected by this announcement.

Regarding the Lurssen OPV, there is an interesting article in this months DTR Magazine about the future ships Combat Management System and Fire control Director.
While not wanting to read to much into it, this systems claimed ability to track four concurrent targets which includes sea skimming missile appears most impressive.Will be very interested as to what is selected for the main gun and therefore what defence it provides for the ship.

Regards S

What is puzzling though, is that there appears to be a lack of any information of a navigation / surface search radar. I would have thought that at a minimum, we would be getting Kelvin Hughes Sharpeye radar. I was also hoping that the OPVs would be equipped with a lightweight air/surface search such as the Giraffe 1X or Thales Variant.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I think the OPV project is focused on other things at this stage. I don't think civmec had any real intention of working with austal, I think that was just a bit of announcement magic to ensure no one rained on the announcement.

Given the current environment, I wouldn't be surprised if it comes pretty well spec'd. The 9LV combat system gives lots of scope for decent systems to be integrated into that. Including things sensors and sub systems like we see on the Anzacs. Radar is going to be critical, probably last thing that will be announced.

I imagine actual fitout will differ quite significantly from the Darussalam-class OPVs.

 

[Volkodav]

One wonders what is happening with the original Ceafar panels currently fitted to the Anzac? If memory serves me, the current panels each consist of four tiles, maybe they could be split, refurbished and fitted to a smaller lighter (OPV sized) mast.

 

[StingrayOZ]

It will be interesting what happens with the Anzacs and their equipment.

Will they be sold as is, gifted, pulled apart?

Some of the Anzac stuff will be top notch, they haven't even had their latest radar fitted yet (which I assume is an out of water job) and they are meant to come into retirement at 2024.
I could see one or two being parted out and having some subsystems fitted to other ships.

But they will still be quite capable frigates in a variety of areas, and in many cases the best they have been. They would be pretty relevant to a Navy still modernizing and looking for something right away.

 

[hauritz]

It will be interesting what happens with the Anzacs and their equipment.

Will they be sold as is, gifted, pulled apart?

Some of the Anzac stuff will be top notch, they haven't even had their latest radar fitted yet (which I assume is an out of water job) and they are meant to come into retirement at 2024.
I could see one or two being parted out and having some subsystems fitted to other ships.

But they will still be quite capable frigates in a variety of areas, and in many cases the best they have been. They would be pretty relevant to a Navy still modernizing and looking for something right away.

I don't think the Anzacs will be going anywhere too soon.

The first replacement vessel might not be ready until the late 2020s so I have a feeling that HMAS Anzac might be serving beyond 2024. The slow delivery rate of the future frigate could see quite a few of them serving for longer than planned.

My guess is that many of them might not be much good for anything but dive wrecks by the time the RAN is finished with them.

 

[John Fedup]

The Anzacs will be in better shape at retirement than our Halifaxes will be!

 

[StingrayOZ]

Three ships but only two options

Decision announcement expected next Wednesday.

F-5000 and FREMM front runners? SMH story indicates that Type 26 have have issues maintaining high speed among other negative points.

Really see the sea5000 announcement as being pretty significant. While trying not to be platform fixated, they are going to be very important platforms for a significant part of the Australia's power projection and defence and will affect all parts of the ADF. They will also be critical to local industry and manufacturing and defence technologies.

I see CEC is now operational on the AWD and will be rolled out on the Future frigates. I am very curious as to what exact fitout the Australian frigates will have.

The Anzacs will be in better shape at retirement than our Halifaxes will be!

Well Canada is buying our 30+ year old F-18s (or is it Australia is acquiring the Canadian Airforce), can we interest you in a fleet of frigates too? Good price. You will already be familiar with them, having upgrades NZ boats. Having a couple of ships in Canada would make recruitment of sailors easier. HMCS Lateral Transfer and HMCS Career Opportunity?

 

[hauritz]

Three ships but only two options

Decision announcement expected next Wednesday.

F-5000 and FREMM front runners? SMH story indicates that Type 26 have have issues maintaining high speed among other negative points.

Really see the sea5000 announcement as being pretty significant. While trying not to be platform fixated, they are going to be very important platforms for a significant part of the Australia's power projection and defence and will affect all parts of the ADF. They will also be critical to local industry and manufacturing and defence technologies.

I see CEC is now operational on the AWD and will be rolled out on the Future frigates. I am very curious as to what exact fitout the Australian frigates will have.


Well Canada is buying our 30+ year old F-18s (or is it Australia is acquiring the Canadian Airforce), can we interest you in a fleet of frigates too? Good price. You will already be familiar with them, having upgrades NZ boats. Having a couple of ships in Canada would make recruitment of sailors easier. HMCS Lateral Transfer and HMCS Career Opportunity?

The F-5000 is becoming more and more the obvious choice.

The British only have themselves to blame for dawdling along with this project. It may eventually cost them a sale to Australia and of course they have already been rejected by the Americans. A little more urgency in getting the type 26 project up and running and it might have been a different story.

 

[StobieWan]

Three ships but only two options

Decision announcement expected next Wednesday.

F-5000 and FREMM front runners? SMH story indicates that Type 26 have have issues maintaining high speed among other negative points.

Really see the sea5000 announcement as being pretty significant. While trying not to be platform fixated, they are going to be very important platforms for a significant part of the Australia's power projection and defence and will affect all parts of the ADF. They will also be critical to local industry and manufacturing and defence technologies.

I see CEC is now operational on the AWD and will be rolled out on the Future frigates. I am very curious as to what exact fitout the Australian frigates will have.


Well Canada is buying our 30+ year old F-18s (or is it Australia is acquiring the Canadian Airforce), can we interest you in a fleet of frigates too? Good price. You will already be familiar with them, having upgrades NZ boats. Having a couple of ships in Canada would make recruitment of sailors easier. HMCS Lateral Transfer and HMCS Career Opportunity?

I think the comments on the Type 26 in the article are absurd speculation - plus, they can't even spell "superb" apparently. There's nothing, zip, zilch, nada known about the warm water performance of the Type 26, and I'm going to do with the idea that they are conflating the Type 45's issues with the Type 26 here. Neither are there any hints that the ships will have any issues maintaining speed. Yes, it'd be a lot better if we'd built a bunch of them already but most of the points in that article range from speculation to "making stuff up"