Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Volk,

Far from being concerned, I agree with the vast majority of what you have said in your last two posts. And the points you make in the first one on integration, T & A etc are very much to the point,

Of course we can do things better if we have the ongoing build program (it’s well known that max shipyard efficiency only comes with the 4th hull built to the same design), and AWD suffered when we forgot the lessons of the past. But the AWDs will be, as the Collins have been and continue to be, a great capability for Aust. It’s just a pity that the initial problems are always simplified and then used to characterise the class.

And as noted towards the end of your second post, almost all shipbuilding programs have problems they need to overcome either in their early stages or when the ships are in service and something that hadn’t been anticipated appears. In addition to the ones you noted, you could have picked the ANZACs, the CG 47s, FFG7s, Type 42s, Type 21s, and on and on. STAAG on the Battles in the 50s anyone? Unexpected corrosion in the Type 12s? The loiter engine in the Freos?
My old boss called Torrens home for most of his career and mentioned a corrosion issue in an inaccessible main cable run down much the length of the hull, that the one you referring to?

The use of composite patches to repair cracking on the FFGs was interesting, as was the importance of coatings in regards to durability and hull life. This is stuff that we wouldn't know but for the existence of an industry and the presence of the grey hairs with the institutional knowledge.
 

koala

Member
Nope.

You seem to have this idea that fabrication, pre fit out, erection, consolidation, integration of CoA required systems, activation and testing is nothing, or at most a minor part of the process, also following your definitions Navantia was more an assembler than a builder of the Amarda's ships. You seem to have a mindset that Australians are not capable of doing this type of work, when in actual fact we are very good at it, I suppose its a cultural cringe thing that ignores the fact that different people have different strengths and abilities but even the best can not shine when some dipstick ignores professional advice and doesn't let the experts do the job they have trained to do.

There were too many people on the project from outside of defence and engineering fields who thought they knew better than the experts, they were the ones who made mistakes and missed the stuff ups from suppliers and subcontractors because they assumes a signed affirmation was sufficient evidence that what was being supplied was to spec and fit for purpose. People who assumed there was no need for a vendor QC/QA function, nor a build assurance, or even design assurance one. I didn't know this stuff but I was at some the meetings and reviews (many before any steel was cut) where RAN, DMO and industry people with years of experience on similar projects brought up this stuff and were mostly ignored.

It would be quite easy though also a pointless waste of money to have manufactured the GTs etc locally with the planned buy of three hulls, but with a continuous build the numbers may work out differently. You don't seem to realise just how much work goes into looking after stuff in a warehouse, or how many issues it causes when multiple shipsets are ordered from overseas suppliers at the start of a project, sometimes it is definitely neither the cheaper or less risky option. If the overseas suppliers were actually as good as they were expected to be there would have been less pain but seriously in my personal experience many of them would not have made the cut as supplier to the now deceased Australian passenger car industry, let alone a major naval program with Australian engineering control.

This issue is if we don't build our own ships our ability to maintain and upgrade them is diminished, as is our ability to actually ensure the suppliers we are forced to rely on are competent or even honest. If we don't build our own ships we don't grow the experts we need to get everything else done through the life of the capability and onwards ensuring the mistakes of the past are not repeated. I am being panelled for a couple of roles on new projects at the moment because of the skills and experience I gained on AWD and other projects, it is that experience that is the key, not what I have read or discussed on internet forums, not what I learnt at school TAFE or UNI, it is experience I would not have had the AWDs not been built in Australia, and I am one of many. I am currently working about as far away as you can get from shipbuilding, in a project that seems to fit your idea of what the RAN should be doing, i.e. a minimum change MOTS solution with the overseas designer / builder controlling just about everything bar first line maintenance, and I know which model I prefer.
I totally agree on every word you have mentioned.
I work for a major company in the petroleum industry and we use to manufacture every single part of our equipment in Australia, from pumping units to circuit boards and software development to nearly every single component of our equipment.
Since globalisation and the diminish of manufacturing in Australia our company imports most of our equipment from our company in Germany.
Since this has happened and when we find faults we are often ignored by the Germans (they just don't want to know) and we have to try and find resolve in Australia, plus our engineering department has been diminished, we have no electronic and software specialists, so it is left to the senior technicians to go figure it out, not a proper engineering department.
I am in FULL agreement to keep our shipbuilding specialists and workforce here, no matter what cost, because when shit hits the proverbial (like my work) we won't have anybody to help and support us.

Cheers Chris
 
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alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Volk,

Far from being concerned, I agree with the vast majority of what you have said in your last two posts. And the points you make in the first one on integration, T & A etc are very much to the point,

Of course we can do things better if we have the ongoing build program (it’s well known that max shipyard efficiency only comes with the 4th hull built to the same design), and AWD suffered when we forgot the lessons of the past. But the AWDs will be, as the Collins have been and continue to be, a great capability for Aust. It’s just a pity that the initial problems are always simplified and then used to characterise the class.

And as noted towards the end of your second post, almost all shipbuilding programs have problems they need to overcome either in their early stages or when the ships are in service and something that hadn’t been anticipated appears. In addition to the ones you noted, you could have picked the ANZACs, the CG 47s, FFG7s, Type 42s, Type 21s, and on and on. STAAG on the Battles in the 50s anyone? Unexpected corrosion in the Type 12s? The loiter engine in the Freos?
OK.... I will bite. Just where is the data to support the claim that maximum efficiency is achieved after 4 hulls to the same design. This is nonsense and is not reflected in the output of mature yards.

Certainly you need a number of hulls to rebuild skill sets after they have lost. The has been the issue in a number of high profile builds. For warships If you are integrating new technologies the is a significant time and price risk but ...... if you look at the commercial building world a new and ground breaking on off design can be put together on time and cost....... you have to know what you want.... and stick to it.

I support the ship building strategy as it will build the skill sets and experience that allows designs to be evolved or new designs to be inducted. Over time it will also result in an increasingly local supply chain for equipment and fittings.

And before it is suggested the commercial world do not have to deal with complexity in the same manner as warships have a look at some of the offshore units being built ...... the FLNG Prelude being a case in point
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Personal experience and advice from organisations such as FMI.

Of course one offs can be built to schedule and cost; but if you build a number to the same design the yard learns how to get things done for that design in the most efficient way. That is usually reflected in the compensated gross tonnage cost decreasing over the initial part of the run and stabilising around the fourth ship; and that expectation is frequently built into the budget. There will of course be occasions where it is the third or the fifth, but the fourth seems about the norm. Quality will likely have improved from the first ship as well.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Personal experience and advice from organisations such as FMI.

Of course one offs can be built to schedule and cost; but if you build a number to the same design the yard learns how to get things done for that design in the most efficient way. That is usually reflected in the compensated gross tonnage cost decreasing over the initial part of the run and stabilising around the fourth ship; and that expectation is frequently built into the budget. There will of course be occasions where it is the third or the fifth, but the fourth seems about the norm. Quality will likely have improved from the first ship as well.
Sorry this not borne out by the output mature yards in the commercial world. In some cases owners my order a trio or more of ships but even there the design and fit will evolve. While the yards have ‘designs’ each owner will generally specify rhe systems and machinery (including cargo systems)...... this is no small change. On top of that many hulls (take Sycamore as an example) will be one offs for a specific function. If you ‘advice’ is correct all these would loss makers and they are not.

However in the case of the AWD there is some validity to the suggestion but only because the yard is inexperienced and is building its skill base as it builds
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Sorry this not borne out by the output mature yards in the commercial world. In some cases owners my order a trio or more of ships but even there the design and fit will evolve. While the yards have ‘designs’ each owner will generally specify rhe systems and machinery (including cargo systems)...... this is no small change. On top of that many hulls (take Sycamore as an example) will be one offs for a specific function. If you ‘advice’ is correct all these would loss makers and they are not.

However in the case of the AWD there is some validity to the suggestion but only because the yard is inexperienced and is building its skill base as it builds
In your judgement, how frequently would an Australian yard need to launch a new vessel to maintain viability? And relating to that, what would likely be the 'ideal' number of vessels in a batch build, 3? 4?

Given that the RAN has had ~12 major and 22 minor vessels (not including the survey launches, or training and logistics vessels) I am attempting to determine what is needed (apart from a lack of political interference) to keep construction going once it can be started.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry this not borne out by the output mature yards in the commercial world. In some cases owners my order a trio or more of ships but even there the design and fit will evolve. While the yards have ‘designs’ each owner will generally specify rhe systems and machinery (including cargo systems)...... this is no small change. On top of that many hulls (take Sycamore as an example) will be one offs for a specific function. If you ‘advice’ is correct all these would loss makers and they are not.

However in the case of the AWD there is some validity to the suggestion but only because the yard is inexperienced and is building its skill base as it builds

It may not be the experience in the commercial world, but then we are talking about Naval shipbuilding aren’t we? That’s certainly the conversation I thought we were having, and that’s the environment in which the comment is relevant.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It may not be the experience in the commercial world, but then we are talking about Naval shipbuilding aren’t we? That’s certainly the conversation I thought we were having, and that’s the environment in which the comment is relevant.
And ironically, with the exception of the ANZACs and Collins, something we have failed to achieve before with our larger classes being built at multiple yards, diluting the effort. This is stuff that was known forever but beyond the realms of possibility in Australia for various, but usually political reasons. Fingers crossed the current strategy survives the next change of government unlike the previous well thought out plans that died in the early 50s, 70s, 80s, mid 90s, late noughties and early teens within a couple of years, if not on the change of government and changes in focus.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Amen to that; there does seem to be a degree of bipartisanship about the program, but of course the inevitable result of a change of government, if that was to occur, would be that bets are off (sigh).

And, noting the date and time, a happy new year to all.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Amen to that; there does seem to be a degree of bipartisanship about the program, but of course the inevitable result of a change of government, if that was to occur, would be that bets are off (sigh).

And, noting the date and time, a happy new year to all.
Or even just a change of PM or Defmin. I believe we came very close to having all majors imported under Johnston/Abbott with only minors and whatever "fast light frigates" were meant to be being built locally (all in WA of course), while (and I could be wrong on this) a fourth AWD was a distinct bipartisan possibility under Howard and Rudd, or at the very least the OCV, but disappeared under Gillard.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It may not be the experience in the commercial world, but then we are talking about Naval shipbuilding aren’t we? That’s certainly the conversation I thought we were having, and that’s the environment in which the comment is relevant.
There are very few military yards in the world on which to base your assumptions..... most have closed in many nations. The only yards in most countries that have high throughput are commercial yards. Even some of those that have a military focus, such as Navantia, have a commercial wing to keep the work flow up, the same goes for German yards.

For those countries where the shipbuilding industry as declined the supporting industrial and logistical has also declined which is another significant.

It is a bit trite to ignore this on the basis we are ‘talking military’ as the same supporting mechanisms and skill sets are needed. I have spent a lot of time in ship yards and the ability of a mature yard to adapt or evolve as design (and to readily integrate changes in the supply chain) is key to viability. The supply chain impact cannot be under estimated..... look at the pipe work issues on the Hobart DDG.

The difference in the Australian context is we have done the stop-start-stop...... and start again a number of times. The rebuilding is painful.

If you look at the ramp up on the Hobart DDG by hull three the efficiencies were obvious and this was as much about skilling the yard as learning the design. The number hulls to get there really depends on supporting arrangements and retention of skills. It is utter bollocks to say 3 or 4 hulls will do it when the overall environment and level of support is what will drive how quickly efficiently dividends will be seen. Look at Russian military yards an how they have struggled to deliver hulls....this is a combination poor support, a damaged logistical base and a sporadic order cycle.

Pity there is now a run down of skills between now and the OPV as there will be another ramp up required. However, If we maintain a supported industry then it should be efficient noting the examples of build of skills and delivery cycle related to the ANZAC, Collins and DDG end of production run. The yards will .... hopefully... be more agile and able to induct design changes with limited impact on delivery.
 
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spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
[QUOTE="alexsa, post: 332110, member: 4297”]

Pity there is now a run down of skills between now and the OPV as there will be another ramp up required. However, If we maintain a supported industry then it should be efficient noting the examples of build of skills and delivery cycle related to the ANZAC, Collins and DDG end of production run. The yards will .... hopefully... be more agile and able to induct design changes with limited impact on delivery.[/QUOTE]

Now on that, if nothing else, we can agree.

Although I would point out that there are also a couple of US yards that have been, effectively, in continuous production of warships only for many years. There’s even one in the UK which could almost make the same claim, although I wouldn’t hold it up as an example.
 
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hauritz

Well-Known Member
Now that Australia is working with Lurssen to build Australia's new OPVs I wonder how that arrangement will work out in reality when it comes to exporting ships regionally.

Lurssen has indicated that it will be establishing a base in Perth to target regional defence contracts.

Does this mean that if Lurssen wins ship orders in this region that it will build those ships in Australia rather than in Germany?
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Now that Australia is working with Lurssen to build Australia's new OPVs I wonder how that arrangement will work out in reality when it comes to exporting ships regionally.

Lurssen has indicated that it will be establishing a base in Perth to target regional defence contracts.

Does this mean that if Lurssen wins ship orders in this region that it will build those ships in Australia rather than in Germany?

I cant see anyone wanting to build OPV for them here unless by some miracle that one of the pacific nations want more than the Pacific patrol boats
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I cant see anyone wanting to build OPV for them here unless by some miracle that one of the pacific nations want more than the Pacific patrol boats
I tend to agree ... unless we literally give the ships away I can't see too many orders from the immediate region.

New Zealand might be a chance ... beyond that I can't see much.

I guess when Lurssen was referring to pursuing regional defence contracts it was simply code for selling more ships to Australia.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I tend to agree ... unless we literally give the ships away I can't see too many orders from the immediate region.

New Zealand might be a chance ... beyond that I can't see much.

I guess when Lurssen was referring to pursuing regional defence contracts it was simply code for selling more ships to Australia.
To be fair the only build we may have a chance on s the future submarines, don't think Canada wants to go thru the pain of building them from scratch if they replace the Victoria's
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
To be fair the only build we may have a chance on s the future submarines, don't think Canada wants to go thru the pain of building them from scratch if they replace the Victoria's
That could be interesting ... France baulked at selling the FREMM to Canada I wonder how they will go with selling their sub design.

It does sound like Spain is essentially pushing the F-5000 design to Canada so there might be a chance of some industry participation there
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
That could be interesting ... France baulked at selling the FREMM to Canada I wonder how they will go with selling their sub design.
Wasn't part of the Submarine deal that Australia would own the IP? That would mean that ASC could sell units to whoever the Australian Government said they could, though obviously certain countries may have a veto on the sale of certain aspects such as the US with the Combat System.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Do you know why the French baulked? I am curious about the reason.
They didn't baulk, they made an unsolicited offer which was rejected because it was outside the tendering rules.
The tragedy is that they could have saved the Canadian government a bucket load and had the ships online earlier, IMHO
 
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