Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Stampede

Well-Known Member
Actually the Navy Daily webpage (on the Navy website), does have an article on the announcement of the winner and does talk about 3 x 8.4m sea boats, see link below:

Offshore Patrol Vessel announced | Navy Daily
Yes that's the link.

Will be nice to see the finished product in a few years time.
Regarding the ships main gun, well of the little information given about the OPV it has being stated that the ships will be armed with a 40 mm so I guess that's a constant.

I wonder if there is any scope in modifying the mount to make it a true CIWS against incoming missiles like the millennium gun.

I also see the appeal of standard systems across the fleet so would not be disappointed to see the 25mm typhoons replaced with 40mm systems.

The former always struck me as a very limited weapon.
Maybe it was cheap!


Regards S
 

foxdemon

Member
I’m sorry, but what are these OPVs actually going to be doing? You seem to be implying they will be doing something other than what the Navy has planned for them to do. There are no specified take for these ships that require an armament greater than they will have, so what is it you think they’ll be doing that will require greater armament?
What the navy is thinking is to upgrade their current order of battle without changing the fundamental structure. So the OPVs are an incremental improvement over previous patrol boats. They want greater endurance but no substantial change in mission set. Hence the vessels are specified to be suitable for dealing with poachers and smugglers.

I am arguing that these vessels will end up being employed on a broader missions set. The problem is there is a growing Islamic radical present in SE Asia. Their aim is to revive the Sultanate of Joho. I’ll leave it for people to look up the history books to find out what that is about. We can’t afford not the challenge that insurgency.

Already we are getting involved with Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines with the intention of combating a maritime insurgency threat in the region. So we need vessels that can perform such missions.

The OPVs are an ideal size for this work. Insurgencies are fundamentally Wars of attrition. The cost has to be kept down otherwise a nation has to concede due to running out of money. Major warships, though they can do the job, are too expensive to employ all the time.

OK, so there is the context. Regarding specific scenarios and missions, as I stated in my previous post, there is intercepting small vessels which the insurgents use to travel between islands and resupply their forces. Stopped them moving around is an important goal for containing their activities. The problem here is identifying them as they use fishing boats. This requires getting close and possibly boarding, which is dangerous work. A larger gun won’t help in this scenario.

Where a large gun will help is in scenarios where OPVs are deploying and supporting special forces operations against these insurgents. Such missions might be hostage recovery attempts, capturing or killing insurgent leaders, recon and raids against supply caches. So it is mainly firesupport I’m thinking of. Hence why I think the 76mm looks good. The Volcano round, a long range guided munition, would be very useful. A 40mm could give covering fire to a boat team leaving shore but it can’t reach very far in land. I suppose you could use some sort of armed drone for supporting shore parties, but they are weather limited. A 76mm could bring down effective fire when needed and save the bacon of the special forces team if they encounter more resistance than they expected.

So that is really what I have in mind. But, as I stated earlier, a large gun has a certain intimidation value in staring down coast guards. So it makes the OPVs more versatile generally in that they have a bigger possible mission set. SE Asia is a more boisterous place than it once was.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If you have spoken to anyone in the navy the 76mm guns that are used on the Adelaide class frigates you would know that the weapon system is out of date and is "A piece of Junk". The 57mm system actually delivers less explosive per second than the 76mm gun.
There are newer versions of the Oto Melera 76mm guns that we operate, that I am sure are perfectly fine naval guns...

However it is immaterial. Navy want these naval ships to be constrained to a very narrow role and hence they won’t be getting anything much that would be useful in wartime.

Apparently it is a most excellent idea for nearly half of our surface naval fleet to not be equipped for wartime operations, (apparently they’ll all be tied up in port or something, should we happen to find ourselves involved in one our vignettes didn’t expect...) so we’d better all come to terms with the idea.

Indeed it is such an excellent idea (because of our limited funding) we can’t really afford to equip them better, so therefore the ‘logic’ goes, they will never be at risk, according to our ‘betters’ (the fact that an enemy might have a different idea of things, is apparently not relevant...)

No, we can only afford to pay the huge premium (in risk and actual dollars) building them imposes on us.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There are newer versions of the Oto Melera 76mm guns that we operate, that I am sure are perfectly fine naval guns...

However it is immaterial. Navy want these naval ships to be constrained to a very narrow role and hence they won’t be getting anything much that would be useful in wartime.

Apparently it is a most excellent idea for nearly half of our surface naval fleet to not be equipped for wartime operations, (apparently they’ll all be tied up in port or something, should we happen to find ourselves involved in one our vignettes didn’t expect...) so we’d better all come to terms with the idea.

Indeed it is such an excellent idea (because of our limited funding) we can’t really afford to equip them better, so therefore the ‘logic’ goes, they will never be at risk, according to our ‘betters’ (the fact that an enemy might have a different idea of things, is apparently not relevant...)

No, we can only afford to pay the huge premium (in risk and actual dollars) building them imposes on us.
You're being far too cynical.
Largish guns on smallish ships during hot war will have limited utility.
Far better to fit boxed missiles of various types be they line of sight or OTH, anti air or anti surface ITSHTF. Provided the ships have a reasonable CMS, they have, their usefulness will be in no way diminished by having a smaller gun
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
You're being far too cynical.
Largish guns on smallish ships during hot war will have limited utility.
Far better to fit boxed missiles of various types be they line of sight or OTH, anti air or anti surface ITSHTF. Provided the ships have a reasonable CMS, they have, their usefulness will be in no way diminished by having a smaller gun
Perhaps, but I’m far from the only one who thinks this way... More than one commentator has raised the issue that we can afford to spend a vast proportion of our defence budget on local build priorities, but not on equipping these vessels well...

Our neighbours also seem to share this sentiment. All the major powers in our region with the exception of NZ, operate OPV’s of similar size and displacement, yet they can afford to run medium calibre naval guns, surface to air missiles, proper air search radars, EO/IR systems, EW systems and in some cases boxed ASM’s on their second tier OPV’s, whilst we seemingly cannot.

Now I agree with the proposition that we spend more on our ‘top end’ than they do, but our specification or intended role for an OPV is not goimg to matter to an enemy who detects an 85m, 1500+ ton warship... Regardless of what we intend for the class, they will be considered a warship if we ever have to partake in a war that isn’t of our choosing.

A solitary 40mm gun for self defence? Please. It’s function is to provide a capability to intimidate non co-operative vessels at minimal cost.

We have seen the same issue with LHD’s. A year or two into their service they are being up-gunned because their initial spec was completely inadequate.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Australia does have a propensity to up gun its ships over time.

The OPVs may start out with 40 mm guns but I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up being fitted with something more substantial. These ships will have a much larger patrol footprint than their predecessors and that may well take them into some fairly hotly contested waters.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Australia does have a propensity to up gun its ships over time.

The OPVs may start out with 40 mm guns but I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up being fitted with something more substantial. These ships will have a much larger patrol footprint than their predecessors and that may well take them into some fairly hotly contested waters.
I guess it comes down to are they building them to commercial rules or Naval Rules for DC capabilities
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Our neighbours also seem to share this sentiment. All the major powers in our region with the exception of NZ, operate OPV’s of similar size and displacement, yet they can afford to run medium calibre naval guns, surface to air missiles, proper air search radars, EO/IR systems, EW systems and in some cases boxed ASM’s on their second tier OPV’s, whilst we seemingly cannot.
And those ships that spend their displacement on armaments don’t have the long range, good habitability, aviation facilities, ease of use of RHIBs, and flexible spaces that our OPVs will have, because they are the characteristics that are actually useful for the role. It’s apples and oranges.

Now I agree with the proposition that we spend more on our ‘top end’ than they do, but our specification or intended role for an OPV is not goimg to matter to an enemy who detects an 85m, 1500+ ton warship... Regardless of what we intend for the class, they will be considered a warship if we ever have to partake in a war that isn’t of our choosing. .
By this logic, every army truck would be armed like a tank, and every C-17 would be armed with AAMs. If, in a proper shooting war an enemy happens upon a lone OPV, then that is the fates of war. It’s no different to if an enemy attacks a resupply convoy, or attacks an air to air refuelling aircraft, or finds an AOR alone transiting back for resupply. It is a poor argument for turning an OPV into a surface combatant.

Why would we equip a ship for a role that the Navy has absolutely no intent in using them for? Was there ever a time when the armament of the Amidales was a limiting factor? Why then would the heavier armament of a the OPV then be a limiting factor? Everyone seems to be assuming the OPVs will be used in a role that the Navy have no intent in using them. They are simply bigger and better patrol boats, the very thing everyone on this board has been arguing for for years.

If you want more surface combatants, than argue for more surface combatants. Just don’t try to turn an OPV into a combat vessel.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well said Raven. These ships are being acquired to perform constabulary functions, predominantly in our EEZ. They are not corvettes, and don’t need to be armed like them.
 

hairyman

Active Member
They are not Corvettes, but perhaps there is a need for a small number of Corvettes in the RAN again. They could be used for all the purposes previously outlined, and I would suggest anti-submarine work as well.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
They are not Corvettes, but perhaps there is a need for a small number of Corvettes in the RAN again. They could be used for all the purposes previously outlined, and I would suggest anti-submarine work as well.
wasn't that the original plan with the Transfield designed OCV with Malaysia hence the reason of the SeaSprites?
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well said Raven. These ships are being acquired to perform constabulary functions, predominantly in our EEZ. They are not corvettes, and don’t need to be armed like them.
Thank you spoz and Raven, sanity returns to the discussion.
These ships are not combatants, will not be deployed against anything other than the odd RPG carrying pirate if they are unlucky.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
They are not Corvettes, but perhaps there is a need for a small number of Corvettes in the RAN again. They could be used for all the purposes previously outlined, and I would suggest anti-submarine work as well.
I think there is a strong argument for a couple of proper corvettes (same size as the OPVs, more or less, but armed), for littoral ops in our POE, support to SF, and support to amphibious ops (particularly the PLF). I can’t see ASW being a useful role, however, as the threshold for being useful at ASW is likely higher than can be achieved in such a ship.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think there is a strong argument for a couple of proper corvettes (same size as the OPVs, more or less, but armed), for littoral ops in our POE, support to SF, and support to amphibious ops (particularly the PLF). I can’t see ASW being a useful role, however, as the threshold for being useful at ASW is likely higher than can be achieved in such a ship.
Yes and guess what Lurssen is the main contractor for the German K130 Braunschweig class corvettes, as well as being involved in the SAAR6 class evolved from the K130 for the Israeli navy. Should the need arise it may well be a better option to just build something similar rather than up gun the OPVs.

Get these OPVs built and in service and determine what they can and can't do, over and above the contracted requirements, from there, then if it is deemed that a more capable platform is required they can then be built by the thriving industry that has resulted from the shipbuilding plan. The OPVs can then either all continue as is, as modified or be cascaded into Hydro, MCM or to BPC, roles the design is already suitable for in its baseline form with the addition of containerised systems.

Not aimed at Raven but a general comment ref the 40mm, there is a very wide range of capable modern munitions available in that calibre, including some that provide a CWIS capability. As for replacing 25mm on all and sundry I don't know, the LPHs are getting Phalanx but the Hobarts will likely be keeping theirs and I am pretty sure they will be in the running for the new frigates which will need 18 mounts. Also with the MCMVs being upgraded and life extended 25mm may well find its way onto them as well.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Agree with Volks on the approach to small surface combatants should they prove necessary; and on the possibilities inherent in a continuous shipbuilding program.

On small caliber weapons for major surface combatants, it is nice to have something available that can put a couple of rounds down range to warn or deter as well as providing VSRSD. A Phalanx CIWS doesn’t quite work like that; good if you want the target destroyed but a bit embarrassing if you don’t. What the best size of weapon for that purpose is might be a matter of fashion but certainly the good old 40/60 did it perfectly adequately, as it would seem the Typhoon probably does, although obviously not seen as being enough gun as the main armament of a minor hence the new 40. There looks like being enough of each sort available sothat ammunition logistics won’t be much of an issue. Where that leaves sea 5K we will have to wait to see I’m afraid.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Australia does seem out of step with other countries in that there are no plans for light frigate corvette sized warships.

While I agree that large surface combatants like the Hobart and SEA 5000 frigate represent huge capability boost, ship numbers do have a quality all of their own.

I would hasten to add that this should not be at the expense of any of Australia's planned new fleet of frigates but perhaps it could be combined with Australia's requirement for a new MCM fleet in the 2030s.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Australia does seem out of step with other countries in that there are no plans for light frigate corvette sized warships.

While I agree that large surface combatants like the Hobart and SEA 5000 frigate represent huge capability boost, ship numbers do have a quality all of their own.

I would hasten to add that this should not be at the expense of any of Australia's planned new fleet of frigates but perhaps it could be combined with Australia's requirement for a new MCM fleet in the 2030s.
Light frigates are ideal for many of our neighbours, think Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore and others in the SE Asian archiapelagos. In this situation, range and endurance are limited, pirate activity is rife and growing and SLOC are concentrated into very small geographic areas and little Bluewater Naval activity is possible, its dangerous for major combatants exposed in these scenarios.
The USN has approached this problem by building the LCS fleet and should the RAN be tasked away from the current amphibious role it may be beneficial to consider light and agile littoral warfare units. In the meantime it makes more sense to forge ever closer ties to our allies to the north who are well equipped for that task
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Yes and guess what Lurssen is the main contractor for the German K130 Braunschweig class corvettes, as well as being involved in the SAAR6 class evolved from the K130 for the Israeli navy. Should the need arise it may well be a better option to just build something similar rather than up gun the OPVs.

Get these OPVs built and in service and determine what they can and can't do, over and above the contracted requirements, from there, then if it is deemed that a more capable platform is required they can then be built by the thriving industry that has resulted from the shipbuilding plan. The OPVs can then either all continue as is, as modified or be cascaded into Hydro, MCM or to BPC, roles the design is already suitable for in its baseline form with the addition of containerised systems.
The bit I am concerned about, and this to an extent is based off how the RNZN's Protector-class OPV's turned out, is just how much flexibility has been incorporated into the design? For example, if it were to turn out that a 40 mm/L70 Bofors became insufficient due to changes in operational tasking or the security situation, could a 57 mm or 76 mm gun mounting be installed? Or would structural work need to be done first? The old FCPB's were fitted with surplus 40 mm/L60's, but the mounting location was designed to take a 76 mm gun. OTOH the RNZN's Protector-class OPV per the design drawings would need to have significant structural work done to put any deck penetrating mount in place of the 25 mm Typhoon, or to install a magazine beneath the gun mounting.

A similar situation exists with respect to helicopter operations. A lack of permanent helicopter facilities could make long duration helicopter operations more difficult or untenable in the future. While there are no current plans to get more LUH's at this time, it is likely the OPV's would see service until ~2050 and there will likely be plenty of opportunity for things to go pear-shaped in the next 30 years.

Not aimed at Raven but a general comment ref the 40mm, there is a very wide range of capable modern munitions available in that calibre, including some that provide a CWIS capability. As for replacing 25mm on all and sundry I don't know, the LPHs are getting Phalanx but the Hobarts will likely be keeping theirs and I am pretty sure they will be in the running for the new frigates which will need 18 mounts. Also with the MCMVs being upgraded and life extended 25mm may well find its way onto them as well.
With respect to a CIWS capability, I am less concerned about the munitions fired than the gun itself. For a small-calibre gun that has an effective range of ~4 km in a CIWS role, a practical ROF 100 rounds in 20 seconds seems insufficient. The Italian DARDO CIWS for instance uses variants of the Bofors 40 mm/L70, but in a twin-mounting, or twin rapid fire variant which can provide two to three times the volume of fire as a single gun mount can.

With the larger calibre guns, the significantly larger size of the shell and what the munitions can do offset the much lower ROF. To put things into perspective, the 35 mm AHEAD projectile is 0.75 kg with 152 tungsten sub-projectiles and 40 mm projectile from the L70 is ~0.96 kg. While a 57mm Mk 295 Mod 0 3P-HE projectile is ~2.4 kg with 8,000+ preformed tungsten fragments and 76 mm DART projectiles are ~4 kg and guided

Between the ROF, stock of munition in the mounting, and weight of the munition, a gun like the Mk 4 40 mm/L70 can deliver a smaller weight of shot in a given period of time, or before running out altogether, than guns like the Millennium Gun, or the Mk 110 57 mm and Mk 75 76 mm.

Australia does seem out of step with other countries in that there are no plans for light frigate corvette sized warships.

While I agree that large surface combatants like the Hobart and SEA 5000 frigate represent huge capability boost, ship numbers do have a quality all of their own.

I would hasten to add that this should not be at the expense of any of Australia's planned new fleet of frigates but perhaps it could be combined with Australia's requirement for a new MCM fleet in the 2030s.
This is largely due to Australia's location an area or breadth of naval interests. Corvettes tend to be either very lightly armed with some sea-keeping and endurance like an OPV, or well-armed like a scaled down frigate or destroyer but with a much shorter endurance and less seakeeping. Australia sends the main fleet units all over the world, but IMO it would be risky to attempt to do the same with a corvette.

As a side note, does anyone see potential value to the RAN/ADF for a few (2-4) multi-role support ships in the 3,000 to 4,500 ton range? I have in mind something like a smaller version of the Danish Absalon-class support ship or perhaps Singapore's Endurance-class LPD. A vessel able to perform some patrolling functions, but also capable of self-defence in moderate threat environments and able to land and then support platoon+ sized detachments for HADR and insurgency responses.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I wouldn't be too worried about the need to up gun OPV's etc.

Currently we are much better focusing on the major fleet units and combat capability. I would much rather have a major fleet unit with 48 or more VLS than a OPV with a larger gun and a major fleet unit with 24 VLS. Or taking away ciws off the frigates or AWD to give that capability to the OPV's.

If the need arose, the RAN has a significant inventory of older stuff, and no doubt with a higher threat level, additional money will be made available. They will have capable combat systems, and can support larger guns, boxed missiles, and could be modified further to enhance their capability.

More importantly the production line is open, so if we wanted to build corvettes (or even small Frigates), we will have multiple experienced yards, with a logistics chain already (mostly) in place, which could be upsized (in number). This is in addition to the capability to build destroyer sized ships or submarines.

As the PM said, Australia is building 54 new naval vessels, often from new facilities or facilities that haven't build that kind of thing before in recent times. They can't all be armed to the teeth and it would be counter productive to do so (for a number of reasons, not just related to money). We are better off focusing getting hulls into the water for now. As tempting as it may be to turn everything into a battleship, history has shown that is not always the best strategy.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The bit I am concerned about, and this to an extent is based off how the RNZN's Protector-class OPV's turned out, is just how much flexibility has been incorporated into the design? For example, if it were to turn out that a 40 mm/L70 Bofors became insufficient due to changes in operational tasking or the security situation, could a 57 mm or 76 mm gun mounting be installed? Or would structural work need to be done first? The old FCPB's were fitted with surplus 40 mm/L60's, but the mounting location was designed to take a 76 mm gun. OTOH the RNZN's Protector-class OPV per the design drawings would need to have significant structural work done to put any deck penetrating mount in place of the 25 mm Typhoon, or to install a magazine beneath the gun mounting.
The Brunei version has mounted a Mk110 57mm and I believe the flight deck is large enough to install a concertina style/temporary hanger.
 
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