Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I would still assume they would want helicopter capability. The Leeuwins were build in 2000 when modern positioning methods were used.

HMS enterprise and echo can support a helo operations. US survey ships are 5,000t and the latest one has a moon pool. I can certainly see UAV/UUV being more useful in the future for survey type work.
There is already some interest in SEA 2400.

Norway and International Maritime Consultants (IMC) of Fremantle have teamed up to offer a range of designs.

Skipsteknisk and IMC Team to Offer Australia A State-of-the-Art Hydrographic Oceanographic Research Vessel Design

Could be a good case for a specialised vessel.

I suspect they could be pushing for something like this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAP_Carrasco_(BOP-171)

also a brief backgrounder on SEA 2400
http://www.foo.org.au/fileadmin/use...7/FOO_2017_Presentations/FOO_Presentation.pdf

We are apparently responsible for 50million square kilometres of ocean.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My understanding is that much of the broad area oceanographic and hydrographic work will become a civilian/chartered enterprise under the auspices of the Hydrographic office.
What remains with the RAN will be the REA, a task where rapid info on a specific area is required prior to Amphibious or other ops and in this instance a variation of the New OPV design could be used.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
That sounds about right. I couldn't really imagine the navy being interested in having to accommodate civilian scientists.

It is still very early days so they probably haven't worked out the scope of the project yet but the original plan was to replace the patrol boat, mcv and survey fleet with a single hull type and I don't see any compelling reason why that plan would change.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My understanding is that much of the broad area oceanographic and hydrographic work will become a civilian/chartered enterprise under the auspices of the Hydrographic office.
What remains with the RAN will be the REA, a task where rapid info on a specific area is required prior to Amphibious or other ops and in this instance a variation of the New OPV design could be used.
It may well be; but the question then becomes who trains the hydrographers if the
Navy doesn't; and, is there really any cost benefit to the nation in doing so? The UK is doing something like this, and not as well as it used to if I can believe my sources.

On accommodating civvy scientists; Diamantina used to do it all the time, as did Cook for the short time she was around. There's a long tradition going back to Challenger; Darwin in Beagle; and Banks in Endeavour.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It may well be; but the question then becomes who trains the hydrographers if the
Navy doesn't; and, is there really any cost benefit to the nation in doing so? The UK is doing something like this, and not as well as it used to if I can believe my sources.

On accommodating civvy scientists; Diamantina used to do it all the time, as did Cook for the short time she was around. There's a long tradition going back to Challenger; Darwin in Beagle; and Banks in Endeavour.
I believe uniformed hydrographers will continue to deploy in these civilian ships as they now do in the Antarctic and as they probably will in the future (my supposition) and they probably will continue to man and run the Hydrographic Office (again my supposition)
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Looking at the new Lurssen OPV 80 it is listed to have three 8.4 m sea boats.
If I'm correct such a boat is not currently in service with Navy.
This may suggest a new rather large fleet of boats to be acquired for the OPV's.
Not an insignificant purchase.

Would this acquisition come under SEA1180 or be a separate project?


Regards S
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Looking at the new Lurssen OPV 80 it is listed to have three 8.4 m sea boats.
If I'm correct such a boat is not currently in service with Navy.
This may suggest a new rather large fleet of boats to be acquired for the OPV's.
Not an insignificant purchase.

Would this acquisition come under SEA1180 or be a separate project?


Regards S
Are you just quoting the specs from their web site ? Once again that and what has been asked for and proposed in the RFT are 2 very different things, so until Defence releases the finer details, its all pie in the sky stuff

Cheers
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Are you just quoting the specs from their web site ? Once again that and what has been asked for and proposed in the RFT are 2 very different things, so until Defence releases the finer details, its all pie in the sky stuff

Cheers
Actually the Navy Daily webpage (on the Navy website), does have an article on the announcement of the winner and does talk about 3 x 8.4m sea boats, see link below:

Offshore Patrol Vessel announced | Navy Daily
 

foxdemon

Member
CV90 versions armed with both a 30 mm (Finland, Norway, Switzerland) and 35 mm (Denmark, Netherlands) gun have been developed and exported. Danish, Norwegian and Swedish CV90's have seen combat in Afghanistan since 2007 with a number having been damaged or lost due to IED's.

My preference would have been for a mounting for the 35 mm Millennium Gun which is a non-deck penetrating CIWS, and then to see additional examples brought into RAN service to replace the existing pool of Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS.
That or go larger with either a Mk 110 57 mm Bofors, or better a Mk 75 76 mm/cal 62 OTO Melara gun with DART ammunition.

An issue I have with a number of the small calibre naval guns (Bushmaster 25 mm, 40 mm Bofors, etc.) is that between the weight or shot, effective (as opposed to max) range, and sustained rate of fire, they are useful vs. smallcraft but not much use again aerial targets. Take the Mk 4 40 mm/L70 Bofors, at a "max ROF 300 RPM" that could be hard pressed to defend vs. an inbound AShM, even with programmable ammunition, since I doubt such rounds would be quite as capable as programmable 57 mm or 76 mm rounds. Add in the fact that while the ROF is listed as 300 RPM, the gun itself only holds 100 rounds, which means after 20 seconds it needs to reload. In point of fact, the Mk 110 57 mm Bofors has a similar issue with a listed ROF of 200 RPM when the gun holds less than 200 rounds and at full rate would run out of ammo after about 40 seconds. The OTO Melara 76 mm Compact version also has a similar issue, though the listed ROF is much nearer the practical max ROF, being a listed at 85 RPM, with the gun holding 80 rounds. I am uncertain about the 120 RPM Super Rapid version, though I would not be surprised if it too only held 80 rounds ready to fire in the gun.

For the large guns, the greater effective range and precision ammunition, plus potential ASuW and NGS are assets. With the smaller guns, it would seem a significantly higher ROF coupled with the magazine capacity to actually achieve the claimed ROF would seem to be in order.

Committing to a comparatively slow sustained firing small calibre gun would seem to limit the potential flexibility and versatility of both the weapon and vessel.
I think you are right.

To my mind a 76mm would make sense. When looking at possible missions for sloops, there is chasing smugglers and pirates but also operating against insurgents, hybrid trawler militias and coast guards. The 76mm would be useful for gunfire support of recon teams deployed ashore against insurgents and the larger gun has better intimidation value against militant trawlers and coast guards. This is in addition to the reasons you point out.

The OPVs would be more versitile with a larger gun.
 

Flexson

Active Member
CN released Plan Beacon on Thursday; his Navy Basing strategy. I've been trying to find it in the public domain so I could post a link on here but I'm not having any luck.

Interesting read, particularly the artist concept drawings on possible (it stresses only possible not planned) wharf arrangements at Stirling, Cairns, Coonawarra and GIDP. Doubling or more then doubling wharf space at each location. Didn't think it would be possible at GIDP until you see the concept drawing.

Hopefully it will be released soon, keep an eye out for it.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group

Hazdog

Member
I think you are right.

To my mind a 76mm would make sense. When looking at possible missions for sloops, there is chasing smugglers and pirates but also operating against insurgents, hybrid trawler militias and coast guards. The 76mm would be useful for gunfire support of recon teams deployed ashore against insurgents and the larger gun has better intimidation value against militant trawlers and coast guards. This is in addition to the reasons you point out.

The OPVs would be more versitile with a larger gun.
If you have spoken to anyone in the navy the 76mm guns that are used on the Adelaide class frigates you would know that the weapon system is out of date and is "A piece of Junk". The 57mm system actually delivers less explosive per second than the 76mm gun.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If you have spoken to anyone in the navy the 76mm guns that are used on the Adelaide class frigates you would know that the weapon system is out of date and is "A piece of Junk". The 57mm system actually delivers less explosive per second than the 76mm gun.
I assume you meant the other way around in your last sentence and I agree.
There seems to be a fascination with bigger guns however there is little regard to how the ships are to be used and that is mainly in the constabulary role.
The ships are large enough to fit more and larger weapons if the situation demanded.
What seems more important to me is the logistic/sustainment equation and in this I agree with others that unless there is a general move across the ADF to 40mm for future platforms 40mm is an odd choice
 

Hazdog

Member
I assume you meant the other way around in your last sentence and I agree.
There seems to be a fascination with bigger guns however there is little regard to how the ships are to be used and that is mainly in the constabulary role.
The ships are large enough to fit more and larger weapons if the situation demanded.
What seems more important to me is the logistic/sustainment equation and in this I agree with others that unless there is a general move across the ADF to 40mm for future platforms 40mm is an odd choice
Yes Pardon me,

The increase in the size of the RHIB's could influence longer operations and make SF deployments easier.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
There seems to be a fascination with bigger guns however there is little regard to how the ships are to be used and that is mainly in the constabulary role.

The ships are large enough to fit more and larger weapons if the situation demanded.

What seems more important to me is the logistic/sustainment equation and in this I agree with others that unless there is a general move across the ADF to 40mm for future platforms 40mm is an odd choice
Yes the introduction (or re-introduction), of a 40mm gun might appear to be an odd choice, but from what I can see, both of the German contenders for SEA1180 appeared to offer a 40mm solution as the main gun for their respective designs.

One can only assume that the RFT must have contained something in it for both Lurssen and Fassmer to included such a gun in their designs.

Regardless of that, good or bad decision, I still think that a 57mm or 76mm main gun is probably just 'too much' gun for, what appears to be, their intended primary constabulary roles.

The combination of 40mm main gun, backed up by a pair of .50cals, fired at a runaway illegal boat or ship, is no doubt going to ruin their day if there is a hit on that runaway vessel too.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I assume you meant the other way around in your last sentence and I agree.
There seems to be a fascination with bigger guns however there is little regard to how the ships are to be used and that is mainly in the constabulary role.
The ships are large enough to fit more and larger weapons if the situation demanded.
What seems more important to me is the logistic/sustainment equation and in this I agree with others that unless there is a general move across the ADF to 40mm for future platforms 40mm is an odd choice
Actually my personal preference would have been for a 35 mm Rheinmetall GDM-008 (Oerlikon Millennium Gun) since it can be used much like the current 25 mm Typhoon/Bushmaster mountings, as well as the Mk 4 Bofors 40mm/L70 can against smallcraft and for warning shots. In addition, it can provide a CIWS capability vs. aircraft and inbound AShM like the Mk 15 Phalanx can (likely to a better degree) which the Typhoon and Bofors cannot.

The larger guns, the 76 mm in particular, can provide a greater range of response options due to larger shell and generally much longer effective range. Especially if loaded with some of the tricksy precision munitions which have been developed. IMO it would be good if there was a reasonable path for the vessels to be able to be kitted out with more effective weapons in the future, but for the current and near future, that is not a pressing concern.

Of prime interest to me is providing versatility now at a reasonable cost, and leaving options open for future flexibility.
 

SteveR

Active Member
Actually my personal preference would have been for a 35 mm Rheinmetall GDM-008 (Oerlikon Millennium Gun) since it can be used much like the current 25 mm Typhoon/Bushmaster mountings, as well as the Mk 4 Bofors 40mm/L70 can against smallcraft and for warning shots. In addition, it can provide a CIWS capability vs. aircraft and inbound AShM like the Mk 15 Phalanx can (likely to a better degree) which the Typhoon and Bofors cannot.
As I said about a month ago, 35mm Millennium has a brochure range of 5Km, well within visual range, whereas Oto Melara and Bofors 40mm guns have a brochure range of 12.5Km. You can identify most small surface vessels out to about 12Km so the 40mm allows you to put a shot across the bow before they turn and run. With the 35mm you watch them run away when they spot you and all you can do is wave good-bye unless you have superior boat speed.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
As I said about a month ago, 35mm Millennium has a brochure range of 5Km, well within visual range, whereas Oto Melara and Bofors 40mm guns have a brochure range of 12.5Km. You can identify most small surface vessels out to about 12Km so the 40mm allows you to put a shot across the bow before they turn and run. With the 35mm you watch them run away when they spot you and all you can do is wave good-bye unless you have superior boat speed.
The BAE brochure lists a max range for the Bofors Mk 4 40 mm/L70 gun as 12.5 km, but that is the max, as opposed to effective range.

The effective ranges I keep finding for the Rheinmetall 35 mm Millennium Gun go up to 5km, depending on the type of target. If the target is a sea skimming missile then the effective range drops to only 1.5 km.

When checking various sources for the effective (again, not max but effective) range of the 40 mm/L70 is listed as out to 4 km for both air and surface targets.

I take the listed max range for the 40 mm/L70 with a large grain of salt, since shooting at something as max range could very well go pear-shaped. Attempting a shot across a vessel's bow at max range (especially if underway) could easily end up being a shot into the vessel's bow, bridge, or other important system.
 

foxdemon

Member
If you have spoken to anyone in the navy the 76mm guns that are used on the Adelaide class frigates you would know that the weapon system is out of date and is "A piece of Junk". The 57mm system actually delivers less explosive per second than the 76mm gun.

Ah ha! The old 57 vs 76 debate! Ok, IÂ’m good for it.

The 76 might be out of date if you use the older model on the Adelaide class as a comparison. But there are newer models. As to being a ‘piece of junk’, I think that view results from the water cooling system, which is more difficult to maintain that an air cooled weapon like the Bofors 57mm.

But, being water cooled and having a heavier round will represent greater firepower at greater range than the 57 can produce. The thing is on some missions, those involving targeting comparable sized ships or naval gunfire support, the captain is going to appreciate the 76 while the crews will always like the 57 as it is easier to work with.

Anyway, I would not argue if the OPVs got 57s. It is a big step up over the 40mm. But the RAN has specified a light auto cannon. The reason is that the RAN brass are going out of their way to ensure the OPVs don’t become small warships. Hence the ‘constabulary ‘ idea. I think this is a doctrinal misconception.

I used the term ‘sloop’ in my previous post. The historical idea was to have a small vessel that could chase pirates and smugglers without having to send a ship of the line. So a sloop, or indeed a historical frigate, gives you a naval presence when your ships of the line have better things to do. Neither sloops nor frigates were regarded as fit to put in the line of battle.

The OPVs then are sloops, or with a good enough range, frigates (in the historical sense). So how much firepower does a sloop need in contemporary SE Asia?

I have suggested that these ships are likely to be sent in missions to deal with insurgents. So we are talking Islamic radicals/ terrorists in a maritime setting. Note that pirates, smugglers and organised crime over laps insurgency/ terrorism. Often it is the same group of people. Note also that these people have managed to get their hands on AS missiles in the ME. It is not a question of if but when these missiles will show up in SE Asia.

So a sloop in SE Asia has to be able to cramp the style of insurgent/pirate/terrorists. It needs to be able to cope with one or two old fashion AS missiles, defend itself against motor boat suicide attacks, deploy and provide gunfire support for shore parties and intercept small vessels.

The other higher stakes role is staring down coast guards and trawler militias. Actually the 40mm would be fine versus trawlers but itÂ’s not good enough against coast guards. It is embarrassing when oneÂ’s naval vessel has to retreat before a coast guard vessel due to being outgunned.

The current ‘let’s make sure it isn’t a warship’ constabulary idea is OK for dealing with poachers (illegal fishing) but not OK for what these OPVs are going to find themselves actually doing. Now if the OPVs are mainly intended for southern waters, and the fishies of the Antarctic are going to be increasely valuable as global warming and population pressures impact fish stocks in tropical regions, then The constabulary 40mm idea is fine. But in northern waters they will be under gunned.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The current ‘let’s make sure it isn’t a warship’ constabulary idea is OK for dealing with poachers (illegal fishing) but not OK for what these OPVs are going to find themselves actually doing.
I’m sorry, but what are these OPVs actually going to be doing? You seem to be implying they will be doing something other than what the Navy has planned for them to do. There are no specified take for these ships that require an armament greater than they will have, so what is it you think they’ll be doing that will require greater armament?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top