Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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John Newman

The Bunker Group
At the end of the day its a moot point anyway, cant be stowed permanently on them.
Moot point? No it's not (and I say that politely too).

It's more of a 'chicken and the egg' question, which came first?

On the one hand you are saying that the design chosen without a hangar means that an LUH can't be permanently stowed on them.

But you also need to look at the stick from the other end, and that could easily be that the reason a design was chosen without a hangar is that there was and never has been a plan to operate an LUH (or any other helicopter type) off them permanently anyway.

The DWP and DIIP are now more than a year and a half old, no mention of a plan for an LUH fleet during the course of those documents (which look ahead out to around 2030ish), which to me give a reasonable clue as to why there appears to be no request for a hangar to be included in the OPV design.

Anyway, just my opinion of course too.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
40mm for the main armament seems a bit of an odd choice. 25mm, 30mm, 35mm and 76mm would make sense from either already being in Australian service or likely to come in with LAND400. 57mm would make sense both as a weapon fitted to previous versions of the OPV80 design and as a weapon used by several of our allies (see US in particular).

But 40mm? Particularly when it won't be the old Bofors 40mm/L60 type but either the modern 40mm/L70 derivative made by BAE or the Pommy-Frog 40mm CTA. So no savings in dragging ancient ammo out of storage and significant costs added another ammo type to the inventory...

Still, I 'spose there must be some reason...
And if they went for the old guns to make use of old ammo stocks (if any still remained) to save a few pennies assuming said ammo was still even useable then they would have missed out on the more accurate better ranged guns along with more modern superior munitions that go along with them.

This gun is a small expenditure to keep everything useful for the future.

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OT, I can understand why people have no love for Austal but what I dont understand is why we assume they went for the wrong builder. Has Civmec built any naval craft or civilian have they shown to have the skill, have they shown the custmer support for this specialised field? Not saying they are good or bad or better or worse then Austal but not sure we should be making the assumption they are better just because they aren't Austal.

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Not the boat I would have liked but damn site better then what we have ever had for this role. While a hanger would have had it's uses it wasnt meant to be at least not for now. In any case if they ever wanted an airborne asset to operate off of them it would be a timely program to acquire, Enough time to either modify the existing planned assets or to plan the future replacement. It isn't like we will decide to acquire a new class of helo and expect it in service in a few years, If done quickly still over half a decade.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
... and Austal share prices rose by 9.85%

I should have been onto that. While I thought that Austal would probably win with the Fassmer design it never occurred to me that the government would give them work regardless of which design won.

Time to start working out what shares to buy when the future frigate is selected.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
... and Austal share prices rose by 9.85%

I should have been onto that. While I thought that Austal would probably win with the Fassmer design it never occurred to me that the government would give them work regardless of which design won.

Time to start working out what shares to buy when the future frigate is selected.
Going on recent form it will be the one that everyone least favours - so probably the FREM :)
MB
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Going on recent form it will be the one that everyone least favours - so probably the FREM :)
MB
I have had a terrible track record of picking the winners of these things. I was sure Australia was going to get the Baby Burke, equally confident that we would end up with the Soryu and this time around my house would have been on Fassmer.

Maybe I had better just leave my money in the bank.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
According to Mr Pynes twitter feed it states that the OPV will allow the RAN to undertake more extensive operations and protect resources over greater distances and in more complex maritime environments!

I wonder will we see the OPV armed with more than we thought they would be and also if they will wonder up to the South China Sea. or dare i say it up off the horn doing Pirate duties? I know that's probably asking way tooo much of these ships.
The future can't be known but the ships are capable of carrying a anti ASMs as shown in the video of KDB Darulaman leaving Darwin some time ago illustrates.
Further the ships will have the SAAB 9LV combat system and as Harpoon is already integrated it's certainly a possibility if the strategic environment heats up.

https://youtu.be/zYS3tB0olSY
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
The future can't be known but the ships are capable of carrying a anti ASMs as shown in the video of KDB Darulaman leaving Darwin some time ago illustrates.
Further the ships will have the SAAB 9LV combat system and as Harpoon is already integrated it's certainly a possibility if the strategic environment heats up.

https://youtu.be/zYS3tB0olSY
Though there appears to be one potential issue, see the link below:

Surprise Sea 1180 OPV tender prompts further questions - Australian Defence Magazine

If you look at the photos of the model for the RAN's version of the Darussalam-class, the major change in the ships appears to be the modification behind the bridge and forward of the funnel (eg, where the Brunei Navy ships have their Exocet mounted).

The RAN's version now has RHIB's either side and cranes too, and the platform between the bridge and funnel appears to be a lot narrower too.
 

hairyman

Active Member
These new shipswill not be orphans with their 40mm cal guns. Are'nt our Huons armed with 40 cal guns? And I take it the 40mm should have more range than the smaller calibres. is that correct?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
These new shipswill not be orphans with their 40mm cal guns. Are'nt our Huons armed with 40 cal guns? And I take it the 40mm should have more range than the smaller calibres. is that correct?
The Huon-class MHC is armed with an MSI DS 30B 30mm gun.

The choice does seem a little odd to me, given there is nothing else (that I am aware of) using a 40 mm gun in Australian service. Also, unless SEA 5000 will have 40 mm guns as well, then it would seem to be a poor choice. One would think a certain amount of rationalization of munitions would be done to ease logistics and maintenance.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The choice does seem a little odd to me, given there is nothing else (that I am aware of) using a 40 mm gun in Australian service. .
Drawing a very long bow, and not suggesting that the CV90 is in any way favoured for LAND400 Phase 3, but the Swedish use this gun system on their IFV variant (CV9040) which is one of the proposals

I suppose I'm suggesting that at this stage we have no detailed knowledge of future requirements for medium calibre weapons used by Army and RAN, but at some point something must be the first of a new system

oldsig

Bofors 40 Mk4 naval gun system BAE Systems 40mm datasheet pictures photos video specifications
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Though there appears to be one potential issue, see the link below:

Surprise Sea 1180 OPV tender prompts further questions - Australian Defence Magazine

If you look at the photos of the model for the RAN's version of the Darussalam-class, the major change in the ships appears to be the modification behind the bridge and forward of the funnel (eg, where the Brunei Navy ships have their Exocet mounted).

The RAN's version now has RHIB's either side and cranes too, and the platform between the bridge and funnel appears to be a lot narrower too.
Yeah, missed that one! It still has room behind the gun if they really needed to fit them there but it's a real long shot anyway.

I was wondering about cranes and extra RHIBS, you've solved that problem to. That photo brings its capabilities very close to the Fassmer, it must have been a close run competition.
 

Owly

New Member
These new shipswill not be orphans with their 40mm cal guns. Are'nt our Huons armed with 40 cal guns? And I take it the 40mm should have more range than the smaller calibres. is that correct?
I thought the model displayed recently had the Lenardo light forty gun ?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Drawing a very long bow, and not suggesting that the CV90 is in any way favoured for LAND400 Phase 3, but the Swedish use this gun system on their IFV variant (CV9040) which is one of the proposals

I suppose I'm suggesting that at this stage we have no detailed knowledge of future requirements for medium calibre weapons used by Army and RAN, but at some point something must be the first of a new system

oldsig

Bofors 40 Mk4 naval gun system BAE Systems 40mm datasheet pictures photos video specifications
CV90 versions armed with both a 30 mm (Finland, Norway, Switzerland) and 35 mm (Denmark, Netherlands) gun have been developed and exported. Danish, Norwegian and Swedish CV90's have seen combat in Afghanistan since 2007 with a number having been damaged or lost due to IED's.

My preference would have been for a mounting for the 35 mm Millennium Gun which is a non-deck penetrating CIWS, and then to see additional examples brought into RAN service to replace the existing pool of Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS.
That or go larger with either a Mk 110 57 mm Bofors, or better a Mk 75 76 mm/cal 62 OTO Melara gun with DART ammunition.

An issue I have with a number of the small calibre naval guns (Bushmaster 25 mm, 40 mm Bofors, etc.) is that between the weight or shot, effective (as opposed to max) range, and sustained rate of fire, they are useful vs. smallcraft but not much use again aerial targets. Take the Mk 4 40 mm/L70 Bofors, at a "max ROF 300 RPM" that could be hard pressed to defend vs. an inbound AShM, even with programmable ammunition, since I doubt such rounds would be quite as capable as programmable 57 mm or 76 mm rounds. Add in the fact that while the ROF is listed as 300 RPM, the gun itself only holds 100 rounds, which means after 20 seconds it needs to reload. In point of fact, the Mk 110 57 mm Bofors has a similar issue with a listed ROF of 200 RPM when the gun holds less than 200 rounds and at full rate would run out of ammo after about 40 seconds. The OTO Melara 76 mm Compact version also has a similar issue, though the listed ROF is much nearer the practical max ROF, being a listed at 85 RPM, with the gun holding 80 rounds. I am uncertain about the 120 RPM Super Rapid version, though I would not be surprised if it too only held 80 rounds ready to fire in the gun.

For the large guns, the greater effective range and precision ammunition, plus potential ASuW and NGS are assets. With the smaller guns, it would seem a significantly higher ROF coupled with the magazine capacity to actually achieve the claimed ROF would seem to be in order.

Committing to a comparatively slow sustained firing small calibre gun would seem to limit the potential flexibility and versatility of both the weapon and vessel.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Yeah, missed that one! It still has room behind the gun if they really needed to fit them there but it's a real long shot anyway.

I was wondering about cranes and extra RHIBS, you've solved that problem to. That photo brings its capabilities very close to the Fassmer, it must have been a close run competition.
Yeah I missed it earlier on too.

But it appears they have made the appropriate modifications to carry three RHIBs, same as the Fassmer design.

When I first saw photos of the Lurssen OPV 80 (as they are configured for Brunei), I had thought they were a bit 'short' on RHIB capability, none mounted above, and only the one on the stern ramp (I thought maybe they might have additional RHIBs stored under the flight deck, in the mission deck, for the RAN version).

So putting aside the hangar (which obviously wasn't mandated in the RFI), then yes the capabilities between both the two German designs appear to be very close.

Looking at both of the German designs, one with hangar, one without, the Lurssen design has a significantly longer flight deck (where a hangar would be on the other design), there appears to be a fair bit of space for possibly up to three mission containers (the Fassmer design appeared to have lifts in the flight deck to lower the containers below the flight deck.

Maybe the bottom line is that the Lurssen design is cheaper and less complex, and obviously met the RFI.

At the end of the day the 12 new OPVs will be a significant leap in capability over the preceding ACPBs.
 

Richo99

Active Member
When I first saw photos of the Lurssen OPV 80 (as they are configured for Brunei), I had thought they were a bit 'short' on RHIB capability, none mounted above, and only the one on the stern ramp (I thought maybe they might have additional RHIBs stored under the flight deck, in the mission deck, for the RAN version).
In addition to the large RHIB on the stern ramp, I believe the Brunei version have a single smaller RHIB amidships on the port side adjacent the funnel (none on starboard). The RAN version appears to just mirror this arrangement to provide a third
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
In addition to the large RHIB on the stern ramp, I believe the Brunei version have a single smaller RHIB amidships on the port side adjacent the funnel (none on starboard). The RAN version appears to just mirror this arrangement to provide a third
Yes the Brunei ships do have (what appears to be, looking at photos) a small RHIB on the port side, but not the starboard side.

I don't think the RAN version is just 'mirroring' that and just providing another smaller RHIB.

It appears from the photos that I've seen of the model, that not only is there a RHIB on both the Port and Starboard side, but in fact the ones on the RAN version are both significantly larger too, maybe not a large as the stern ramp RHIB, but certainly larger.

Anyway, we'll all just have to wait and see something published in more detail, but appears to me that there will be three RHIBs of a 'substantial' size.
 

Richo99

Active Member
Yes the Brunei ships do have (what appears to be, looking at photos) a small RHIB on the port side, but not the starboard side.

I don't think the RAN version is just 'mirroring' that and just providing another smaller RHIB.

It appears from the photos that I've seen of the model, that not only is there a RHIB on both the Port and Starboard side, but in fact the ones on the RAN version are both significantly larger too, maybe not a large as the stern ramp RHIB, but certainly larger.

Anyway, we'll all just have to wait and see something published in more detail, but appears to me that there will be three RHIBs of a 'substantial' size.
Mirroring the arrangement....

Navy website says 3 x 8.4m seaboats so marginally bigger than the Bruneis 7 odd meter boat amidships but smaller than the 12 odd meter in th stern
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Sea 1180

So we have a winner.
Well done to Lurssen with their PV80.

What do we get.

Well from the imagery available the bridge appears to offer almost a 360 degree view complete with an outside deck with a nice high elevation so for observation this must be a positive.
The flight deck appears to be the largest of the three ships on offer and importantly offers both refuelling and support for helicopters up to the 11 tonne range which has compatibility for the ADF's NH90' and Romeo's.

The 40mm gun IMHO is a good choice and we may in time see more of this calibre across the fleet. I trust this is a new purchase and not as has being done in the past been recycled from older weapons stock. In it's modern configuration,it's a stabilised system with up to 300 RPM. firing out to 10km with modern ammunition; it is certainly a different animal to the older 40 / L60 and as such it's why it is still a popular choice across the land and sea enviroment. I don't see it as a CIWS for incoming missiles but rather to counter all the other surface and air threats. Importantly small low cost UAV's

If it's true the PV80 will have three 8.4m boats then this is a significant on board fleet for the ships commander to utilise. With ships accommodation for up to 60 PAX and a crew of around 40 then it may well be that the OPV's with their ships boat and spare accommodation will be a good special forces asset.

So as an armchair admiral like many I would have liked a gunned up ASW corvette.

But to be realistic their was no true hints it was asked for and as such did we expect any different.

Lurssen have a good history of ship building and I trust this will bode well for a successful class of OPV's for the RAN.

Question

Do we have a name for this new OPV class?


Regards S
 
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