Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

MickB

Well-Known Member
The only realistic plan to upgrade the aviation capabilities of the LHD’s would be to operate UAV’s. There have been a number of trials off similar sized vessels so there is data available for this to be developed. Apart from offensive capability, the RN has their VIXEN AEW drone under development and are currently using cargo drones to resupply smaller vessels in the fleet thus reducing the workload for their helicopters.

This is more practical than trying to operate F-35B’s from the Canberra class.
To keep the Canberras on primary duties a drone proof of concept/ training vessel might be useful.
I had thought that a small/medium cargo vessel (ex ro/ro?) modified with a basic flight deck and elevator that is capable of both drone and helo operations could fill this role.
Unsure how much the original bridge structure would need to modified to accomplish this.

Such a vessel could provide training to drone and helo pilots, maintainers and flight deck crews.

A ship of this size, with these features would also be very useful as a HADAR asset.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Probably a better question is what would we want to operate off a carrier type ship.

Can a cohesive useful capability be built. Turkey is pretty committed to their program which uses a canberra type ship. Indonesia is buying 60 of them. Which should not escape our mind.

Seaguardian type UAV for organic AWAC and search type roles?
Could these be adapted to ASW type roles? Being able to fly out a bunch of bouys and replenish locally and fly out again, would be hugely advantageous. IMO the best use of F-35B may be Singapore. If Butterworth is perhaps unavailable. Do we really want or need them on the ship anyway.

Then maybe look at platforms. I think sometimes we get very excited about F-35B's on Canberra's, and don't really have a plan about the why or the actual capabilities we would get and how that fits with what we need.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Couple of points:

Hobarts have dedicated task group commanders quarters, and both an operational space and accomodation for his/her staff.

LHDs have a designed life of 40 years.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
For my two bob's on this subject.

An upgrade to the Canberras for F35Bs would be a decade long project at minimum and take them out of service for long periods of time. The Japanese have spend a lot of time upgrading their Izumos for this purpose, seemingly forever. We would be better to buy new purpose built vessels. ...
The basic ship (Juan Carlos I) was designed with F-35B in mind. The Spanish navy (which should know) talks of putting F-35B on JCI as if it'd be rather quick & easy, not requiring years of work. It's talked of timescales, & its main worry seems to be the need to buy the aircraft ASAP to avoid a long gap between retiring Harriers & introducing F-35B, not the time taken to modify the ships. So, unless the Canberra design was modified to make the ships significantly less suitable for fixed-wing aircraft, why would they need to be out of service for long periods? What major changes would be needed?

Of course, learning to operate F-35B off ships would take time, but a lot of that could be done on the ships of other navies, starting before any Australian F-35Bs were delivered. The UK, USA & probably Italy should be happy to cooperate.

When Cavour was modified to operate F-35B she was out of service for 18 months, but that was done along with a major overhaul of other things, including the engines. AFAIK how much of that period was extra time for the F-35B changes is not public.

Izumo & Kaga have had changes which were in JCI as built, e.g. changing their bows to make them suitable for STOVL operations.
 

devo99

Well-Known Member
F35As from forward bases throughout friendly SE nations would provide all the range we need to provide air cover to landing troops. Remember we will never be landing troops in unfriendly locations.
In a peer conflict scenario which friendly SEA nations should we be relying on to grant the RAAF basing? I'll attach this RAND report from 2023 covering "the potential for the United States to receive support in air component capabilities from partners and allies in the event of a major combat contingency in the Indo-Pacific." which includes the somewhat grim table attached below.

And beyond that how effectively could those F-35As provide something like outer air defence to RAN ships in areas inconveniently far away from their bases? I won't argue on where this ranks on the priorities list but merely suggest that it should be on it somewhere rather than being the boogie man under the bed of RAN acquisition discussions as it is often treated.
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA967-2.html
 

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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just keeping on naval guns the R.A.N uses the mk45 mod 4
Should the Vulcano ammunitions be also considered
Is there any advantage to the plus five degrees elevation of the Oto Melara over the Mk45 against aerial threats with airburst ammunition

RAN uses the Mk.45 Mod 4 and the Mk.45 Mod 2. The Mod.2’s are in the process of being upgraded to the 4A standard using the CCA upgrade, which is a Mod.2 gun and turret and Mod.4 electrics and internals, able to fire newer generation munitions the Mod.2 can’t.

 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
RAN uses the Mk.45 Mod 4 and the Mk.45 Mod 2. The Mod.2’s are in the process of being upgraded to the 4A standard using the CCA upgrade, which is a Mod.2 gun and turret and Mod.4 electrics and internals, able to fire newer generation munitions the Mod.2 can’t.

This article provides some details of the earlier extended range munition that was cancelled ,Im not sure if the hypervelocity shells program is still active or if the Volcano rounds could be considered which is further advanced in testing
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
And beyond that how effectively could those F-35As provide something like outer air defence to RAN ships in areas inconveniently far away from their bases? I won't argue on where this ranks on the priorities list but merely suggest that it should be on it somewhere rather than being the boogie man under the bed of RAN acquisition discussions as it is often treated.
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA967-2.html
There is a reason (okay, actually several reasons) why there are problems every time someone raises the specter of the RAN having organic fast jet support and it has been this way for decades. This is part of why I tend to get dismissive of the idea every time it rolls around, and I suspect others who have been here for awhile as well as those who are newer but work or have worked in planning sections including force structure do as well.

Fundamentally yes, the RAN could benefit from having organic fast jet capabilities, if they are done correctly in addition to having other RAN needs met. Of course that is also sort of the problem, as to implement the capability properly/correctly is an expensive and personnel/resource intensive proposition. The ADF would either need to repurpose some of the RAN assets (namely the LHD's) to be modified to enable F-35B ops and diminish or outright lose their ability to operate as LHD's for amphibious roles, or get the money necessary to order a proper carrier to be built for the RAN.

If, even IF the RAN did have a Canberra-class LHD start operating as a fixed-wing aircraft carrier, that would only enable ~12 F-35B's to be embarked. That small an embarked fighter force would likely be hard pressed to provide a sustainable 2-ship CAP, and with some form of organic AEW capability, any CAP would be reliant upon ship-mounted air search radars for volume air approach monitoring which in turn means that any CAP would likely be less effective at keeping potential threats away from any TF.

OTOH if the RAN did end up opting for a purpose built carrier, then one could be designed and built to the specs which could actually be useful, i.e. one that could possibly embark 30-40 aircraft rather than the maybe 20 aircraft which a Canberra-class LHD might manage. Of course, any newly designed and built vessel would have costs associated, plus time needed to complete any design and get it built. Then there would also likely need to be an expansion in the size of the RAN escort fleet, since there would also be more/new high value ships which would need escorting
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
If, even IF the RAN did have a Canberra-class LHD start operating as a fixed-wing aircraft carrier, that would only enable ~12 F-35B's to be embarked. That small an embarked fighter force would likely be hard pressed to provide a sustainable 2-ship CAP, and with some form of organic AEW capability, any CAP would be reliant upon ship-mounted air search radars for volume air approach monitoring which in turn means that any CAP would likely be less effective at keeping potential threats away from any TF.
Depends how we want to operate and where we wanted to operate. I think the AEW is the least of the problems.

E7's have *significant* range. Its conceivable to need to operate in that space fighters, but covered by E7 and P8s. Infact one of the reasons to have a carrier is perhaps to provide some protection for E7/P8s. Particularly if you consider the E7/P8s shuttling between airbases rather than just going out the the deep blue, flying in a circle and flying back. In addition JORN, and sats are eye watching beyond that.

Something like seaguardian might provide some basic AEW capability. They can have a podded Leonardo Seaspray 7500E V2 AESA radar.

But you would be doing all the heavy lifting with this. We can just wait until Britain, Italy or Japan does something similar and assess their performance and value with it.

How does 12 F-35bs change the game? It might against a small or middle power, but against China? Not a lot. The F-35B is pretty short ranged.
The LHD were really designed for very light carrier duties, essentially training an perhaps interim measures. Spain has that want because of their far flung island territories and their historical need for that. Maybe more useful after the US-China conflict?

IMO I've always though a 3rd LHD would be needed to provide reliable carrier capability. Training could then be shared across platforms, and then if required, two LHD could be surged, either both in carrier mode, or one in carrier and one in amphibious. With two carriers, one could be day, one could be night, and if required, both could surge for intense ops. Also they could be located distance apart allowing for some lilly padding possibly with a land airfield. Or one provides CAP and one provides ASW capability. A 3rd LHD would also give excellent amphibious capabilities. I think it would still need to be augmented by smaller amphibious ships, but could replace choules, and we still go with ~4-6 smaller amphibious ships to augment that capability. A third LHD could be built to Turkeys spec, with a higher capability in mind, and we now have several classes modified for F-35b ops to see what that would look like. Singapore, Japan, UK, US have F-35Bs.

But there is a lot of unknowns.. And a lot of money. Are there more urgent capabilities? At least in the carrier space, that money would give us new additional capabilities. But are they capabilities we need? Weapons integration would also need to be looked at. Maybe JSM on MQ-9? Stormbreaker? F-35B still waiting on block IV. is 35B a bit of dead end engine wise.

Sure another LHD, 24x F-35B, 12 x Seaguardian mq9b, maybe some other drone (sea ghost bat?) $10b in acquisition, plus modifying the existing ships, years in docks, taking up time and resources. Perhaps some C130J refuellers. How do our neighbors feel about the temperature of us operating that and training and exercising with that in their region? Are they cool? These days, yeh, probably. What's our strategy? Are they based butterworth? Singapore, is it like a rapid reaction force? Are they permanently embarked on the LHDs? They are the based off other islands? Manus?
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
I think most laymen think the F35B's would be used to fight inland, take on the enemy, but my understanding of the carriers with Harriers was more for fleet defence, given no awacs, short range, limited weapons load. I don't think things change with the F35B. Does Australia really need such a capability? Would it be worth the money?
 

iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
There is a reason (okay, actually several reasons) why there are problems every time someone raises the specter of the RAN having organic fast jet support and it has been this way for decades. This is part of why I tend to get dismissive of the idea every time it rolls around, and I suspect others who have been here for awhile as well as those who are newer but work or have worked in planning sections including force structure do as well.

Fundamentally yes, the RAN could benefit from having organic fast jet capabilities, if they are done correctly in addition to having other RAN needs met. Of course that is also sort of the problem, as to implement the capability properly/correctly is an expensive and personnel/resource intensive proposition. The ADF would either need to repurpose some of the RAN assets (namely the LHD's) to be modified to enable F-35B ops and diminish or outright lose their ability to operate as LHD's for amphibious roles, or get the money necessary to order a proper carrier to be built for the RAN.

If, even IF the RAN did have a Canberra-class LHD start operating as a fixed-wing aircraft carrier, that would only enable ~12 F-35B's to be embarked. That small an embarked fighter force would likely be hard pressed to provide a sustainable 2-ship CAP, and with some form of organic AEW capability, any CAP would be reliant upon ship-mounted air search radars for volume air approach monitoring which in turn means that any CAP would likely be less effective at keeping potential threats away from any TF.

OTOH if the RAN did end up opting for a purpose built carrier, then one could be designed and built to the specs which could actually be useful, i.e. one that could possibly embark 30-40 aircraft rather than the maybe 20 aircraft which a Canberra-class LHD might manage. Of course, any newly designed and built vessel would have costs associated, plus time needed to complete any design and get it built. Then there would also likely need to be an expansion in the size of the RAN escort fleet, since there would also be more/new high value ships which would need escorting
The only way would be to get a USN style assault ship and that would be prohibitive in cost and manpower. Nice thought though.
 

Wombat000

Well-Known Member
I think the benefits of a Naval F35B capability would be (theoretically) an OTH ISR enhancement and the luxury of re-loadable anti-air.
If they could contribute to an outer layer anti-ASMD which is re-loadable then it eases the burden on leaving theatre to re-load limited VLS. - Surface warfare is really anti air warfare isn’t it.
If they can force offensive strike to launch at a further distance it may lead to longer defensive reaction times.
If it’s presence complicates adversary mission planning, perhaps it’s worth the effort.
 

iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
The RAN doesn't need an aircraft carrier but could very definitely benefit from having a forward aviation support ship, which is very definitely not an aircraft carrier

Volks, as always you are the voice of reason. We don't need an aircraft carrier, just a couple of "Aviation Support Ships!"
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
Volks, as always you are the voice of reason. We don't need an aircraft carrier, just a couple of "Aviation Support Ships!"
Very much like how HMAS Sydney was used particularly for the Vung Tau ferry. Ultimately an aviation support ship used to support only helicopters ( the aviation used by RAN) is just a LPH
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Things might change if there was a combined AU-UK approach. We are cooperating on submarines, we would deploy as part of a wider strategy.

What about carriers and naval aviation. UK has two large carriers, Australia has two amphib ships. If this was seen more as a joint capability type. They could still operate independently, but together you would get a more robust and effective carrier capability. Particularly in cases where our interests collide. We could have some F-35B, deploy regularly as part of a UK carrier thing. But then also maybe we focus more on ASW, drone operations, either separately or in support, with some, sometimes light F-35B operations.

A similar arrangement with amphibious ops could be had. Maybe with UK marines, doing some training in Australia at a joint base. Deploying on canberras.

We are looking at maybe changing our defence relationship with Europe. The UK is an easy partner for AU to get along with. The UK may be looking a frequent Asia pacific deployments. This would not replace our relationship with the US but augment it, secure it.

Realistically against China we can't operate completely isolated, and that is unrealistic anyway.

By putting more overlapping things into the venn diagram of capabilities and interests, it would strengthen the partnership. It could help recruitment for both countries. Flying F_35Bs off UK carriers sounds nice. Spending some time cruising through Asia and frequent stop or even possible basing in Australia would likely be attractive to UK personnel. Army Navy and air force of both nations doing things together.

Even as leverage against the EU and US to draw up stronger ties there.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
In a peer conflict scenario which friendly SEA nations should we be relying on to grant the RAAF basing? I'll attach this RAND report from 2023 covering "the potential for the United States to receive support in air component capabilities from partners and allies in the event of a major combat contingency in the Indo-Pacific." which includes the somewhat grim table attached below.

And beyond that how effectively could those F-35As provide something like outer air defence to RAN ships in areas inconveniently far away from their bases? I won't argue on where this ranks on the priorities list but merely suggest that it should be on it somewhere rather than being the boogie man under the bed of RAN acquisition discussions as it is often treated.
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA967-2.html
Valid point, however in a conflict scenario I would not see Australian forces, be that the Army, Air Force or Navy, operate independently in hostile locations.

The Australian littoral strategy is based on moving forces into areas that are protected and then moving those forces forward to secure and protect new areas, creating regions of denial to an enemy and shutting down an enemy's supply lanes. It is not based on Normandy style invasion landings.

I would view that the air cover and air strike resourcing necessary to support a moving litoral land force will be more than what half a squadron of F35Bs could provide.I would suggest that at least a full squadron (so at least 24) F35s would be needed for the required sortie rate. Anything less is going to be vulnerable to being overwhelmed by an enemy that has access to land bases.

An air support will also likely need to include Growlers, which require an airfields, and probably the Rhinos for extended range firepower. These aircraft work in collaboration and are more effective when networked.

The littoral strategy also relies on C130 and C17 logistics for heavy equipment, such as HIMARS and NASAMS and rapid forward deployments. These aircraft also need a secure airfield. We would not rely entirely on the medium and heavy landing ships.

If you follow that principle then the ADF is always going to have nearby airfields from which to launch air cover, air strike and air logistics. If it doesn't have one then it will by necessity either need to obtain it or operate from further back until it does.

I don't think that an LHD with a half squadron of F35Bs changes this equation. If it doesn't change the equation, then the investment (which would be significant) would perhaps be better spent on other assets.

As a last point, I would suggest that our first littoral movements are going to be securing places like PNG, Timor, Pacific Islands and the like, which I would suggest will be friendly. These are necessary for our own security and will be necessary to protect the flank of any subsequent force moving further up. We would not be moving into the S China Sea until this is completed.
 
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hauritz

Well-Known Member
As by
The RAN doesn't need an aircraft carrier but could very definitely benefit from having a forward aviation support ship, which is very definitely not an aircraft carrier

Australia’s LHDs could already conduct lillypad operations. Given Australia’s overall size and its massive EEZ a floating austere airfield could be quite a valuable asset.

It isn’t an aircraft carrier by any stretch of the imagination. It isn’t a fast ship capable of sustaining combat operations but it does have a flight deck and would allow Australia to deploy aircraft into places we currently could not deploy them.

Also it is a capability that could be bought on line relatively quickly and help wallpaper over the current horrendous state of our navy.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Valid point, however in a conflict scenario I would not see Australian forces, be that the Army, Air Force or Navy, operate independently in hostile locations.

The Australian littoral strategy is based on moving forces into areas that are protected and then moving those forces forward to secure and protect new areas, creating regions of denial to an enemy and shutting down an enemy's supply lanes. It is not based on Normandy style invasion landings.

I would view that the air cover and air strike resourcing necessary to support a moving litoral land force will be more than what half a squadron of F35Bs could provide.I would suggest that at least a full squadron (so at least 24) F35s would be needed for the required sortie rate. Anything less is going to be vulnerable to being overwhelmed by an enemy that has access to land bases.

An air support will also likely need to include Growlers, which require an airfield, and probably the Rhinos for extended range firepower. These aircraft work in collaboration and are more effective when networked.

The littoral strategy also relies on C130 and C17 logistics for heavy equipment, such as HIMARS and NASAMS and rapid forward deployments. These aircraft also need a secure airfield. We would not rely entirely on the medium and heavy landing ships.

If you follow that principle then the ADF is always going to have nearby airfield from which to launch air cover, air strike and air logistics. If it doesn't have one then it will by necessity either need to obtain it or operate from further back until it does.

I don't think that an LHD with a squadron of F35Bs changes this equation. If it doesn't change the equation, then the investment (which would be significant) would perhaps be better spent on other assets.
What an f35b can do opposed to operating drones is defend the naval units from aircraft at some distance from the naval vessels
 
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