Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Going Boeing]

When you think about it of course the boats will be secondhand. The unions would freak out if we had new build boats. Also it makes little sense to buy 3 to 5 new build Virginias and then swap over to British SSN(R). Finally there is no way you would get brand new submarines built by the early 30s.

My guess is that we will get a few older block submarines that will have just enough hull life left in them to see us through to new built British boats.

Another question I would have is whether or not we would proceed with the Collins LEX.

Really to raise crews for even just three SSNs by the early to mid 30s we would probably have to divest ourselves of the Collins class.

Looking at the timeline of buying/leasing Virginia’s in the mid 2030’s, that would preclude the Block 1 & 2 boats as there would be insufficient reactor fuel remaining for the time period that we would require them. Block 3 Virginia‘s are the first with 2 VPT’s mounted in the bow and an updated sonar so I think that 3-5 of these may be likely to be acquired. The second last Block 3 is the USS South Dakota which is the test boat for a large number of new technologies so I’m sure that one won’t be available.

My understanding is that the Collins class LOTE has been locked in for all 6 boats since circa April 2021 so I expect that will proceed, there may be some penalty costs if that changes. There’s no doubt that manning the SSN’s is going to involve a lot off effort in recruiting and training.

 

[Morgo]

Still no word on where on the East coast the subs will be based. I cannot see the NIMBY crowd being pleased with SSN's being docked at Fleet base East.

As to whether we get new or second hand Virginia's, we will just have to wait for the official announcement next week.

I think the options were Port Kembla, Newcastle and Brisbane. No mention of FBE I think.

Kembla makes the most sense to me given proximity to ANSTO and it being a commutable distance from a workforce in South/South West Sydney (prob 2m+ people by the time the first SSNs hit the water).

 

[ngatimozart]

So I guess that means a third US production line is basically guaranteed.

How is the US going to institute a 3rd production line when it doesn't have the dockyards or qualified shipyard workers?

The follow on submarine is uk design with u.s systems. The U.S. designed Virginia with u.s systems to be followed by uk design boat with u.s systems is not much of a transition compared to uk design with uk systems. Aus transition from Collins to Virginia is also easier than Collins to astute.

Prove it. Sources.

AUKUS submarine deal: what are the American-made Virginia class nuclear submarines?

But Australia’s deal to acquire as many as five Virginia class nuclear-powered submarines will deliver serious logistical and personnel challenges.

www.afr.com

This answers the third production line speculation.

Rubbish. You just have one ASPI commentator saying so.

It would be really helpful if people don’t post subscription locked articles. How about copy and pasting them?

Because of something called copyright.

THREAD LOCKED UNTIL AFTER THE AUKUS SSN ANNOUNCEMENT.

To many posters making susceptible claims based on speculation.

 

[ngatimozart]

AUKUS
I am adding various sources / stories about the AUKUS SSN announcement.

Joint Leaders Statement on AUKUS | The White House

The AUKUS Nuclear-Powered Submarine Pathway

Australia To Field Virginia & SSN-AUKUS Submarines - Naval News

Australia will initially acquire as many as five Virginia class SSNs. These will then be replaced by up to eight "SSN-AUKUS" submarines.

www.navalnews.com

The thread is reopened and it will be closely monitored and appropriate action taken against posters who abuse it.

 

[Redlands18]

AUKUS
I am adding various sources / stories about the AUKUS SSN announcement.


The AUKUS Nuclear-Powered Submarine Pathway


The thread is reopened and it will be closely monitored and appropriate action taken against posters who abuse it.

Highly recommend reading the Pathway PDFs provided by the DOD, lays out the timelines clearly and has an awesome picture on the front page of what the AUKUS SSN could look like

 

[buffy9]

The presence of (eventually) so many SSN at Stirling seems to be significant in terms of AUKUS in the Indian Ocean. Assuming Australia intends to procure eight SSN with four based at FB-W, then this combines with SRF-West for approximately nine SSN based out of WA (four USN, one RN and eventually four RAN).

When AUVs, the planned underwater surveillance ships and Diego Garcia/India are taken into account as possible logistical nodes, then this will be a major expansion into the Indian Ocean - which may be able to leverage relationships being developed under the Quad more broadly.

 

[Reptilia]

The presence of (eventually) so many SSN at Stirling seems to be significant in terms of AUKUS in the Indian Ocean. Assuming Australia intends to procure eight SSN with four based at FB-W, then this combines with SRF-West for approximately nine SSN based out of WA (four USN, one RN and eventually four RAN).

When AUVs, the planned underwater surveillance ships and Diego Garcia/India are taken into account as possible logistical nodes, then this will be a major expansion into the Indian Ocean - which may be able to leverage relationships being developed under the Quad more broadly.

What will it look like in the east if there is a base in the future?

 

[aviation_enthus]

Another article with a pretty good overview of the announcement:

Australia Will Buy At Least Three U.S.-Made Virginia Class Submarines (Updated)

The AUKUS deal will see Australia buy up to five U.S. nuclear submarines before acquiring boats of a new class based on a British design.

www.thedrive.com

To me (as a civilian), it seems like a pretty good plan. Yes I’m well aware there are significant risks but it seems to have a lot of benefits for all parties if it can be pulled off.

The additional base/repair/construction infrastructure in the southern hemisphere will be a major boost for the US/UK.

Hopefully we can see some forward progress in the timeframe of the current administrations in the US/UK/Aus. The next 3-5 years will really prove how serious they all are.

 

[buffy9]

What will it look like in the east if there is a base in the future?

I couldn't know, I'm neither navy or industry at this point.

I was making the assumption that "at least eight" submarines are planned, with another assumption on top being that such a fleet would be split between the two coasts. Add onto that the assumption that SRF-West will persist into the timeframe of us operating our own SSN.

A lot of assumptions while a decision on basing almost certainly hasn't been fully decided. What exactly is required of the subs and retaining a workforce will probably be the major deciding factors.

 

[Reptilia]

Concept drawing of SSN AUKUS on Navy lookout.

Australia to join Royal Navy SSN(R) submarine programme | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

 

[Lolcake]

What an amazing outcome all things considered. To get the deal done for Virginia's in the early 30s is nothing short of a miracle. The Early SSNR concept looks absolutely stunning too.

 

[Wombat000]

Concept drawing of SSN AUKUS on Navy lookout.

Australia to join Royal Navy SSN(R) submarine programme | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

interesting & good to see an X- aft plane arrangement and ‘conformal‘ Akula-esque fin.
also good to see VLTs featured. - so it’ll be an SSGN?
…….AND all with the US systems.

looks all very positive to me.

 

[Wazza]

I think the drumbeat reflects the intent that we will be producing ssn’s beyond 2063, with the first boat being 24 years old when the last boats delivered, its around the timeframe you’d be cutting the steal on boat 1 of the follow on fleet. Sound plan in my opinion.

 

[alexsa]

Highly recommend reading the Pathway PDFs provided by the DOD, lays out the timelines clearly and has an awesome picture on the front page of what the AUKUS SSN could look like

It is a pretty staggering plan. And I will admit, beyond what I thought the goverment would agree to given the cost. I will suspect the Virginia's will be second hand block II or III as it appear these appear to be a lead in platfrom for the SSNR (or SSN AUKUS).

Common tri-nation weapons and combat system is a good outcome notng Australia already uses US systems in the Collins.

No matter what, this puts Australia in a very exclusive club.

 

[ngatimozart]

Concept drawing of SSN AUKUS on Navy lookout.

Australia to join Royal Navy SSN(R) submarine programme | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

Quite a good write up, but naming the class after Kylie Minogue Maybe the Dame Edna Everidge Class

A combined US AU CMS will be a positive and if it migrates its way into the USN then all three navies will have a significant cross decking ability. Like POTUS said, having everyone singing from the same song sheet is the way forward. Common parts maintenance and weapons. The Navy Lookout article says that "... the RN boats could potentially be armed with a submarine-launched variant of the Future Cruise and Anti-Ship missile (FCASW) currently being jointly developed with the French." IMHO if they do that it will defeat the object of the commonality of the boats. I think that is one of the most important components and advantages of the SSN (AUKUS).

What an amazing outcome all things considered. To get the deal done for Virginia's in the early 30s is nothing short of a miracle. The Early SSNR concept looks absolutely stunning too.

It is a great outcome and is a win win for all three nations.

These are Sub Briefs video on the announcement. The first one is the full live video he did on the announcement as it happened, and the second a summary that he posted later.

Sub Brief Live! AUKUS Partnership Update

US, UK and Australian reps make official statements regarding what submarine class(es) will be involved with the new Australian Submarine Program

www.youtube.com

 

[Milo]

I noticed this press release from BAE which is about a contract extension for the companies involved in sustainment for the ANZAC class frigates. It briefly mentions "Transition Capability Assurance Program" (TransCAP) which I believe is the next set of upgrades to the ANZAC class frigates and I found one line interesting-

We will later move to deliver the TransCAP which will include providing greater missile capability for the ships.

I guess this could be referring to replacing the Harpoon anti-ship missiles with NSM but it may be confirmation that there is a plan to fit a second 8 cell VLS to the ANZAC class frigates.

Warship alliance welcomes contract extension | BAE Systems

 

[seaspear]

I did view one report stating that the used reactors from the submarines would be stored in Australia in defence sites ,likely to make some people unhappy
Also making people unhappy are those in Canada who feel left out and blame their government the same one kicking and screaming against the F-35 till lol
Canada's omission from AUKUS agreement a concern: experts | CTV News

 

[aussienscale]

I did view one report stating that the used reactors from the submarines would be stored in Australia in defence sites ,likely to make some people unhappy
Also making people unhappy are those in Canada who feel left out and blame their government the same one kicking and screaming against the F-35 till lol
Canada's omission from AUKUS agreement a concern: experts | CTV News

Correct, there is a PDF and info in the link provided by NG when the thread was reopened. Only fair we take care of the waste and not palm it off to others

https://www.defence.gov.au/about/taskforces/aukus

In the more information section, under nuclear stewardship and waste, not a lot of detail as yet.

A lot of chatter already about expanding AUKUS, could evolve to include other key countries, Canada included, Japan has been mentioned a lot as well, time will tell how this develops, could end up being AUKUSCANJAP

But certainly a lot could further develop out of this over the coming years.

Cheers

 

[aussienscale]

I noticed this press release from BAE which is about a contract extension for the companies involved in sustainment for the ANZAC class frigates. It briefly mentions "Transition Capability Assurance Program" (TransCAP) which I believe is the next set of upgrades to the ANZAC class frigates and I found one line interesting-

We will later move to deliver the TransCAP which will include providing greater missile capability for the ships.

I guess this could be referring to replacing the Harpoon anti-ship missiles with NSM but it may be confirmation that there is a plan to fit a second 8 cell VLS to the ANZAC class frigates.

Warship alliance welcomes contract extension | BAE Systems

I would bet on your first guess, the quote is talking about "capability" rather than "capacity"

The Anzacs have had top weight and buoyancy issues from the start, the Australian Anzac's had their quarterdecks enclosed pretty early on, and for good reason. There are others who can comment a bit better, but the upgraded mast and systems really maxed them out.

It was discussed heavily in the previous RAN Thread, a search will bring up some of the older information around the subject and probably some good references linking information.

Cheers

 

[Volkodav]

Block II ESSM and NSM? The block II has an active seeker and an envelope better than SM-1.