Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Is this the best reason yet for buying more Super Hornets?
RAAF aircraft seem to already be flying with the AIM-260.
Missile on the right fuselage station looks like an AIM-260 rather than an AIM-120.
This photo is from Excercise Gray Flag.View attachment 55706
View attachment 55705
This would certainly give the Super Hornets of the RAAF a "decisive advantage".
Its an inert trainer. It shows that Australia is probably reciving missiles and training rounds. Not that the platform can effectively fire it at range.

Part of the Blk III upgrade is a new weapons computer that allows very fast integration of new weapons. IMO we want that capability very quickly. AIM260 is a game changer and Blk III makes the super-hornet a premium platform against peers with OHR, ships and AEW, where stealth isn't the huge advantage it was 10 years ago against older fighter radars.

There is a huge capability gap between older super-hornets and older munitions and newer super-hornets and newer munitions.

Also a perfect example why perhaps Australia should consider teaming up with the 4 land based squadrons of the USN and ordering CFT for the f-18 and growlers. And the growler can't fit these tanks, so you send in legacy fighters with radar returns the size of buildings, with no EW or you suffer the huge range loss and risk not being able to engage at all.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
You can’t convert already built Super Hornets into Growlers…

In any case even if you could, Kuwait isn’t even selling it’s legacy Hornets, it has shown zero inclination to sell it’s new Super Hornets.

And we’re still governed by the same mob of idiots who cancelled the additional fighter squadron for RAAF. There is no money for more fighter aircraft and as I posted in the Army thread, we’ve yet to see real money for any unmanned aircraft capability…
Pretty sure we have 6 pre wired aircraft that were not converted.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Pretty sure we have 6 pre wired aircraft that were not converted.
We have 12 in fact. Which amounts to 50% of our entire Super Hornet force. The “plan” to potentially convert them to Growlers was cancelled when we bought 12 actual EA-18G Growlers.

Given the range of responsibilities we have given to our Super Hornets (largely thanks for F-35’s well documented delays) including maritime strike, standoff precision strike, introduction to service of advanced long ranged air to air weapons (per below) and the training capacity for the Super Hornet and Growler fleets, these 12 pre-wired aircraft are going to stay that. Pre-wired.

Whether we “need“ more Super Hornets or not (we may well do so) is irrelevant.

If anyone cares to recall our leading strategic guidance NDS 23/26 and IIP explicity rules out acquiring ANY additional air combat capability for the forseeable future, MQ-28A Ghostbat aside and even with that, like just about every other armed UAS ADF is “exploring” (and has been for years with no end in sight…) we haven’t seen production orders.

When it comes time to spend money, this government has consistently only done so if there are visible local jerbs (aka subs and Hunters).

Anything else gets nothing.
 

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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Its an inert trainer. It shows that Australia is probably reciving missiles and training rounds. Not that the platform can effectively fire it at range.

Part of the Blk III upgrade is a new weapons computer that allows very fast integration of new weapons. IMO we want that capability very quickly. AIM260 is a game changer and Blk III makes the super-hornet a premium platform against peers with OHR, ships and AEW, where stealth isn't the huge advantage it was 10 years ago against older fighter radars.

There is a huge capability gap between older super-hornets and older munitions and newer super-hornets and newer munitions.

Also a perfect example why perhaps Australia should consider teaming up with the 4 land based squadrons of the USN and ordering CFT for the f-18 and growlers. And the growler can't fit these tanks, so you send in legacy fighters with radar returns the size of buildings, with no EW or you suffer the huge range loss and risk not being able to engage at all.
The CFT’s don’t exist. They were only ever conceptual. Non-production representative models were flown on a demo aircraft, but they were only mock ups. When it came time to do the actual structural engineering work to integrate them into the Super Hornet, the USN baulked at the cost, the difficulties doing so and problems they felt were never going to be addressed (structural wear and tear on the airframe) and the whole program was scrapped in 2021.

USN couldn’t afford the cost even amortised across it’s 500+ aircraft fleet and was unimpressed with the performance benefit compared to continuing it’s use of EFT’s.

Despite this, RAAF should “go it alone” across it’s aging 24 aircraft fleet?

No. Just no.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Despite this, RAAF should “go it alone” across it’s aging 24 aircraft fleet?
I had heard the development progressed much further along and cancelled at the last minute. AFAIK it was the weapons pod that was nothing but a mock up and never had any development effort put into it. IMO its not even clear how that would even work to deploy munitions? Mini doors? Stealthy munitions like JSM and LRASM in a separate pod on a centre mount pylon an in a separate enclosure is silly. And large munitions would be hugely problematic. Certainly some aspects of the advanced Super hornet were, seemly, not very good ideas. The weapon pod concept died early on within 3 years of the initial advanced super hornet announcement, The CFT lasted 8 years later before being cancelled.

Boeing said it was mostly a budget decision. Which is understandable. I agree, this would cost money. But does it justify the savings and long term ownership benefits.

1791172400345.png
1791172446858.png

Not to go it alone, but the USN currently operates 4 squadrons of Growlers from land bases, they integrate with USAF platforms and allied forces. These would be prime candidates for a CFT as none of the carrier issues are relevant. From my understanding a lot of the issue a lot of the concern came up late when they were looking at carrier operations with the tank and servicing the aircraft then became problematic. So right up to the full qualification test flights, which would likely need to be redone on an advanced growler anyway. With these type of upgrades often they make the entire program bigger and more expensive and require further qualifications going forward with and without tanks. For the USN, with ample refuelling and movable carriers, single seat fighters may not need this level of complication.

But as I understand it they did fly with 1,500lb of fuel. The early versions were mockups, but there was certainly a later version where it was holding fuel, and demonstrated with limited amount of testing, but not full flight integration testing.

We are spending $6b in upgrading the growlers to advanced growlers. But this plane is draggy, and has limited range and limited capability to employ external fuel tanks. We are part of that program. We could make request for it to be looked at (and possibly rejected).

It would be applicable to the Australian super hornets and Growlers. While in USN it would only be land based growlers that would be of interest. Depending on US appetite and needs particularly when operating in the pacific. But threats on refuelling capability in the pacific are high and being unable to match range of other USAF (ie F-15EX or F-35) is significant. So maybe a 80%+ US input program. Funding environment now of increasing EW aircraft in the Pacific may have more resonance.

Israel has developed CFT for its aircraft separately multiple times with the F-16 and F-15. The F-15 is interesting because the USAF are not that interested in it, but on latter appraisal, are now fitting them to the F-15EX they ordered without them.

AircraftConfiguration
Approx. published range / combat radius​
F-15EXNo CFT
~687 nmi combat radius*​
F-15EXWith CFT
~790–800 nmi combat radius*​
F/A-18E/F Super HornetStandard internal fuel
~570–590 nmi combat radius​
F/A-18E/F Super HornetWith CFT
700+ nmi combat radius​
EA-18G GrowlerStandard, with 2 × 480 gal drop tanks
850+ nmi combat range​
EA-18G GrowlerWith CFT
roughly +100–130 nmi radius, or >30 min extra station time​
F-35AInternal fuel only
590+ nmi combat radius​

So in a Singapore or Japan type mission, With F-15s.. with CFT you get more like F-15 SE range.

You gain two pylons, which means the growlers could carry additional AARGM, strike, etc. or gain enough range with drop tanks to match the F-15EX with CFT.. Which the USAF is now fielding and wasn't in 2021-2022.

Just a brainfart of an idea. It would have to have significant US funding and need.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I had heard the development progressed much further along and cancelled at the last minute. AFAIK it was the weapons pod that was nothing but a mock up and never had any development effort put into it. IMO its not even clear how that would even work to deploy munitions? Mini doors? Stealthy munitions like JSM and LRASM in a separate pod on a centre mount pylon an in a separate enclosure is silly. And large munitions would be hugely problematic. Certainly some aspects of the advanced Super hornet were, seemly, not very good ideas. The weapon pod concept died early on within 3 years of the initial advanced super hornet announcement, The CFT lasted 8 years later before being cancelled.

Boeing said it was mostly a budget decision. Which is understandable. I agree, this would cost money. But does it justify the savings and long term ownership benefits.

View attachment 55734
View attachment 55735

Not to go it alone, but the USN currently operates 4 squadrons of Growlers from land bases, they integrate with USAF platforms and allied forces. These would be prime candidates for a CFT as none of the carrier issues are relevant. From my understanding a lot of the issue a lot of the concern came up late when they were looking at carrier operations with the tank and servicing the aircraft then became problematic. So right up to the full qualification test flights, which would likely need to be redone on an advanced growler anyway. With these type of upgrades often they make the entire program bigger and more expensive and require further qualifications going forward with and without tanks. For the USN, with ample refuelling and movable carriers, single seat fighters may not need this level of complication.

But as I understand it they did fly with 1,500lb of fuel. The early versions were mockups, but there was certainly a later version where it was holding fuel, and demonstrated with limited amount of testing, but not full flight integration testing.

We are spending $6b in upgrading the growlers to advanced growlers. But this plane is draggy, and has limited range and limited capability to employ external fuel tanks. We are part of that program. We could make request for it to be looked at (and possibly rejected).

It would be applicable to the Australian super hornets and Growlers. While in USN it would only be land based growlers that would be of interest. Depending on US appetite and needs particularly when operating in the pacific. But threats on refuelling capability in the pacific are high and being unable to match range of other USAF (ie F-15EX or F-35) is significant. So maybe a 80%+ US input program. Funding environment now of increasing EW aircraft in the Pacific may have more resonance.

Israel has developed CFT for its aircraft separately multiple times with the F-16 and F-15. The F-15 is interesting because the USAF are not that interested in it, but on latter appraisal, are now fitting them to the F-15EX they ordered without them.

AircraftConfiguration
Approx. published range / combat radius​
F-15EXNo CFT
~687 nmi combat radius*​
F-15EXWith CFT
~790–800 nmi combat radius*​
F/A-18E/F Super HornetStandard internal fuel
~570–590 nmi combat radius​
F/A-18E/F Super HornetWith CFT
700+ nmi combat radius​
EA-18G GrowlerStandard, with 2 × 480 gal drop tanks
850+ nmi combat range​
EA-18G GrowlerWith CFT
roughly +100–130 nmi radius, or >30 min extra station time​
F-35AInternal fuel only
590+ nmi combat radius​

So in a Singapore or Japan type mission, With F-15s.. with CFT you get more like F-15 SE range.

You gain two pylons, which means the growlers could carry additional AARGM, strike, etc. or gain enough range with drop tanks to match the F-15EX with CFT.. Which the USAF is now fielding and wasn't in 2021-2022.

Just a brainfart of an idea. It would have to have significant US funding and need.
USN issued a stop work order on it in January 2021. It’s dead.

F/A-XX was approved and down-selected last week. This sort of funding won’t be going on Super Hornets from the USN, it will be going for that.

At best from here on, beyond Block III and SLM, I suspect SH will get improved weapons, tape / software / OFP updates etc, but no further major capability enhancements out to it’s LoT.

Navy will want every bit of capability it can squeeze out of F/A-XX, and RAAF may too…
 
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Bob53

Well-Known Member
The CFT’s don’t exist. They were only ever conceptual. Non-production representative models were flown on a demo aircraft, but they were only mock ups. When it came time to do the actual structural engineering work to integrate them into the Super Hornet, the USN baulked at the cost, the difficulties doing so and problems they felt were never going to be addressed (structural wear and tear on the airframe) and the whole program was scrapped in 2021.

USN couldn’t afford the cost even amortised across it’s 500+ aircraft fleet and was unimpressed with the performance benefit compared to continuing it’s use of EFT’s.

Despite this, RAAF should “go it alone” across it’s aging 24 aircraft fleet?

No. Just no.
I understood the reason they did not go ahead was to do regular maintenance the CFTs had to be removed from the spine of the aircraft Which substantially increased turn around time.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
USN issued a stop work order on it in January 2021. It’s dead.
F/A-XX was approved and down-selected last week. This sort of funding won’t be going on Super Hornets from the USN, it will be going for that.
At best from here on, beyond Block III and SLM, I suspect SH will get improved weapons, tape / software / OFP updates etc, but no further major capability enhancements out to it’s LoT.
Navy will want every bit of capability it can squeeze out of F/A-XX, and RAAF may too…
I think I am coming to your way of thinking.

Also the Growlers operated from bases, are apparently a USAF problem, with pilots and WSO now all USAF. So getting either service to fund that kinda of upgrade would be like cats and dogs cofunding a house together. when they already each are building new houses.

USN has their refuelling drone which is more survivable than a large refueling tanker. And why save pylons when MQ28 and CCA are already here. What problem are we trying to solve with money here that isn't already being solved. Its not a terrible idea, but in the funding hierarchy, there are always more important things.

The secret sauce is going to be weapons, networking, software, decoys, etc. Maybe things that come out of the growler update. The platform is the platform. Boeing has a new project to get along with.

with so few platforms i thought it could be a way to get significant improvement out of our billions invested..
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think I am coming to your way of thinking.

Also the Growlers operated from bases, are apparently a USAF problem, with pilots and WSO now all USAF. So getting either service to fund that kinda of upgrade would be like cats and dogs cofunding a house together. when they already each are building new houses.

USN has their refuelling drone which is more survivable than a large refueling tanker. And why save pylons when MQ28 and CCA are already here. What problem are we trying to solve with money here that isn't already being solved. Its not a terrible idea, but in the funding hierarchy, there are always more important things.

The secret sauce is going to be weapons, networking, software, decoys, etc. Maybe things that come out of the growler update. The platform is the platform. Boeing has a new project to get along with.

with so few platforms i thought it could be a way to get significant improvement out of our billions invested..
Just passing on the USN’s thoughts. They thought they weren’t useful and cancelled them accordingly. Neither RAAF nor Kuwait (gulp) have ever shown any interest in resurrecting the idea.

My thoughts are that if we need more range / loiter time than we can get with the current jets we have, then we need more refuelling and for now that means more KC-30A.

But again, there’s no money for such, either…
 

south

Well-Known Member
(Real world money considerations aside) it would be worth investigating to see if EA-37 would be a better fit. Substantial effect from a standoff jammer that does not have the tanker dependency that E/A-18G has.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
My thoughts are that if we need more range / loiter time than we can get with the current jets we have, then we need more refuelling and for now that means more KC-30A.
Part of the issue is that refuelling aircraft are now legitmate threats and there is a kill chain that exists to take them out at closer ranges.
Also keeping pace with other long range strike aircraft, like the F-15SE etc.

But there are other ways to manage that, and with CCA, now a real thing, money could be better spent.
I thought they were much further along, and basically a complete package that wasn't just ordered.

I wonder if growler stuff could be fitted to a MQ28..
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Part of the issue is that refuelling aircraft are now legitmate threats and there is a kill chain that exists to take them out at closer ranges.
Also keeping pace with other long range strike aircraft, like the F-15SE etc.

But there are other ways to manage that, and with CCA, now a real thing, money could be better spent.
I thought they were much further along, and basically a complete package that wasn't just ordered.

I wonder if growler stuff could be fitted to a MQ28..
How much of the FA 18 Growler is the external pods, and how much is the aircraft itself? How much requires the copilot to specifically drive it in the seat.
 
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