Royal Air Force [RAF] discussions and updates

[RobWilliams]

The UK will not just purchase 48 aircraft, those 48 will be the fixed wing component for carrier strike, minus testing fleet + OCU. But this isn't the right thread for that.

To be honest, there hasn't been much *new* in this article with regards to the F35 order. 48 B's as expected + undisclosed amount of more aircraft, good to hear that the model could potentially change as I thought the plan was just an urban legend

I found it most interesting the comment that some people were advocating 80/20 split for unmanned/manned aircraft.

 

[colay]

I found it most interesting the comment that some people were advocating 80/20 split for unmanned/manned aircraft.

Yeah, was wondering the same thing. Maybe they envision fleets of Predators or perhaps a Taranis offshoot.. UAVs are niche players and I don't see anything on the horizon that indicates that they will come anywhere close to matching what the F-35 brings to the table. Hollywood is the exception, of course.

 

[RobWilliams]

Absolutely, right now it's all a bit confused as *technically* the Future Offensive Air System programme (replacement of Tornado) is cancelled and in the short to medium term is expected to be picked up by the F35 and Typhoon.

But development of Taranis is still ongoing, with test flights supposed to be sheduled "early 2013" at Woomera test range in South Australia, presumably because UK airspace is congested enough as it is and for a LO UCAV? Probably don't want to be near any large population centres for several reasons IMO.

If they even fly the damn thing, it's been postponed since 2011 with continuous ground testing instead.

 

[colay]

Seriously, replacing an actual platform already in production with a technology vision? What happens when they learn that going UAV doesn't mean cheap and trouble-free to develop, own and operate?


Unmanned Taranis could succeed troubled F-35 | Canada | News | Toronto Sun

UNMANNED TARANIS COULD SUCCEED TROUBLED F-35

Course: check. Direction: check. Speed: check. Pilot: redundant.

Welcome to the robotic arms race.

As Canada resumes the seemingly endless debate about whether the RCAF’s next combat fighter will be the troubled F-35 Lightning II or something else, Britain has moved on...

 

[RobWilliams]

Yeah, replacing an aircraft which exists and is doing will in testing with a program which currently has one technology demonstrator and as yet hasn't even been in the sky, what could go wrong?

You'd think from the "Britain has moved on" comment would suggest that we're somehow taking a step ahead of the F35 with Taranis, when that just isn't true.

Still, bloody proud of the project. The sooner we get some of these flying the better IMO.

 

[StobieWan]

Apologies if this has been gone into before but I just noticed on the RAF web site that SDB is set to be integrated with Typhoon. I didn't realise we were getting SDB and of course, that's a very nice knock on effect for F35 as of course, SDB will be an IOC weapon for all F35.

F35B with SDBII..I'd be happy with that

 

[RobWilliams]

Hm, I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't read it for myself

RAF - Typhoon FGR4

Future weapons integration will include Meteor air-to-air missile, Paveway IV, Storm Shadow, Brimstone and Small Diameter Bomb. Additionally, it is intended to upgrade the radar to an Active Electronically Scanned Array.

Agree with the sentiment, it'd be quite handy to have on the F35B. But doesn't it clash somewhat with SPEAR 3?

Plus, the MOD has said before (in an FOI request) that when the F35B reaches IOC with the UK it plans to have AMRAAM, ASRAAM and Paveway IV available for use.

 

[StobieWan]

IOC for F35B in UK hands may just be a little earlier than integration with Tiffy - just a thought. I've no idea how SPEAR 3 fits in but SDB is "free" with F35 and anything with the appropriate UAI drop. If Tiffy is getting SDB, you can just pick them up and stick them on an F35 - ain't no big thing.


There's no cost in having SDB on board F35 once you've bought it for Tiffy, and SPEAR 3 doesn't exist yet.

In a situation with a stuttering economy it might be tempting to conclude there's a program announcement to be made shortly. Just sayin'...

I'd put my cash on SDB II - all the work is being done for free, it seems to work. We just have to buy 'em in lots of a couple of thousand at a time.

 

[RobWilliams]

True, SPEAR 3 doesn't exist and technically all SPEAR 3 is is a program with the MBDA concept being one potential solution. Nothing stopping SDB fulfilling the requirement like Brimstone fits the SPEAR 2 requirement.

 

[StobieWan]

SPEAR 3 and SDB II do seem to have some overlap for sure - similar size weapon, similar class seeker - Okay so SPEAR 3 comes with UAI integration meaning you'd just have to do drop tests for clearance but if you've already got SDB in service? MIght be the same thing as AIM120 and Meteor - Meteor picks up where AIM120 leaves off but seriously, if you're doing the integration work for SDB... ?

SDB II in particular would be the icing on the cake for entering contested environments with F35B. SAM site ahead ? Not for long...

 

[RobWilliams]

This slipped under the radar very well . .. .

Britain prepared to develop 'killer robots', minister says - Telegraph

Taranis, a £145million combat aircraft named after the Celtic God of thunder, can fly faster than the speed of sound and select targets automatically.

It only seeks authorisation from a human controller when it needs to attack a target. The aircraft, which will be used in North Africa, made its maiden flight earlier this year.

NOTE: I passed my limit on the Telegraph website and couldn't read it, this is a copy'n'paste from a mate from the article, so hopefully it's correct

Looking back at my Taranis material (all dated in Jan) does talk about the first flight happening "in the next few weeks". So have I just been a complete dunce and missed this event, or has it not happened, or has BAE simply been very quiet about it?

Then, there's the mention about that the drone "will be used in North Africa". This is ridiculous. The thing is a technology demonstrator and there's not even a real plan - at least in the public domain I know of - about when a derivative of this technology will come into RAF service let alone where the UCAV will be deployed.

 

[StobieWan]

It's the Telegraph. How many times did they report that either QE or PoW had been sold off to <insert country of choice> I don't think they know the difference between Taranis or an SR71...

 

[RobWilliams]

True, thought it was odd because when Dassaults Neuron made its maiden flight there were articles and videos about it put out later in the day and the day after.

Unless the tests of the aircraft went spectacularly wrong.

 

[RobWilliams]

Just read about a quite interesting idea on UK Armed Forces Commentary.

Now, i'm a big fan of the P-8 and i'm very much in favour of it to provide the UKs MPA capability but the trouble is it's an expensive aircraft to procure. But if it was procured with AAS (Advanced Airbourne Sensor) which is in the frame to be to the P-8 as LSRS is to the P-3, it could be beneficial.

After all, while the Sentinel R1 is still down to be gone after Afghan (but looking good to remain) then its capabilities could be lumped in with the P-8 with AAS meaning that the capability would remain but we would have one aircraft fleet to cover both jobs.

Interesting info about LSRS, in 2006 a LSRS "probably on an Orion" supplied real time targetting data to an F-18 which in turn lauched a SLAM-ER and relayed the targetting data to the missile in flight which hit a moving target.

 

[A4kscooter]

RAF acquires 6th Shadow aircraft

The UK is to further expand the size of its fleet of Shadow R1 intelligence aircraft, with a sixth example within weeks of being delivered, it has been revealed.

Responding to a parliamentary question about in-service equipment on 4 July, minister for international security strategy Andrew Murrison estimated the net book value (NBV) of the Royal Air Force's current five Beechcraft King Air 350CER-based Shadow aircraft at a combined £72 million ($108 million).

"The figure comprises the NBV, plus assets in the course of construction yet to be formally transferred onto the fixed asset register, and the sixth aircraft, which is due for delivery at the end of July 2013," Murrison said.


Sunshine Band gallery on flightglobal.com/AirSpace

Assigned to the RAF's 14 Sqn and based at Waddington in Lincolnshire, the Shadow R1 is used to support intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance tasks in Afghanistan. The system has been acquired via the UK Ministry of Defence's urgent operational requirement funding model.

Details of the Shadow's operational capabilities have not been revealed, but the fleet late last year achieved the milestone of having flown 10,000 operational hours. The current aircraft - which the RAF website categorises as "offensive support" assets - were delivered to the service between 2007 and 2011, as recorded in Flightglobal's MiliCAS database.

This is good news and if the Sentinel is to kept, with the Airseeker becoming operational soon and if we get a Nimrod replacement the UK will have capabilities which will be very much in demand around the globe especially in the current political climate.

 

[RobWilliams]

I'm not going to lie, i'm not even 50% sure what role the Shadow R1 actually does (apart from the general ISTAR tag).

There was a bit of a non story a day or too ago about the UK trying to set up an agreeement with the US to get access to their tanker fleet for our RC-135s, but it was to be expected as this sort of thing already happens with our E-3Ds anyway.

We'll know how good/bad our ISTAR capabilities will be after 2015 as although it's slated to be gone post Afghan, Sentinel probably won't be ditched right away it'll be included in the review because of the possibility of it having a future anyway. Then there's if we'll have an MPA capability again?

 

[swerve]

RAF E-3Ds can use USAF tankers, but aren't dependent on booms. They have both receptacles & probes.

 

[RobWilliams]

Excellent, I was under the impression they weren't compatible with our Voyagers. Anyway, here's a series of news updates relevant to the RAF

The RAF has released what part their deployed Sentinel R1 aircraft played in Mali

Royal Air Force lifts lid on Sentinel's role in Mali

During a four-month detachment to Dakar in Senegal launched in late January, Sentinel aircraft flew 66 sorties, totalling a combined 697h, says British Army Maj Seymour Bailey, operations officer for the RAF unit based at Waddington, Lincolnshire. Services provided by its roughly 40 deployed personnel included delivering 100 detailed intelligence reports to French commanders, he says.

Typically prepared by ground-based image analysts using a deployed tactical ground station within 6-8h of an aircraft landing, individual reports included providing annotated synthetic aperture radar imagery of points of interest to support activities by the French armed forces against Islamist militants. This included surveying a dirt landing strip in Tessalit, to assess whether tactical transport aircraft would be able to land safely. Other points of interest included the strategic town of Gao and the Mali/Niger border, where rebel activity was supported by crossing points and resupply boats.

As during the Sentinel's previous use under combat conditions in Afghanistan and Libya, the aircraft's Raytheon dual-mode radar was also used in its ground moving target indication mode to track vehicle movements and build so-called "pattern of life" data. Operators on board the aircraft also were in real-time voice contact with French troops during some missions.

"We were the 'find' phase of the operation," says Bailey. "Persistence over the target is critical. We could look long and far, and cross-cue other assets into suspicious activity for positive identification."

I really hope the fleet is maintained post 2015, but the bad feeling is that if Sentinel is retained when it initially had been planned to be axed, what will be cut to compensate?

It's such a useful capability to have and is a valuable contribution to any deployment, if we're - with the French - to take a more proactive role in the Med/North Africa/ME then we need to retain these valuable ISTAR assets.

Brief update about the future of Paveway IV on Typhoon

Paveway IV integration on target for RAF Typhoons

Performed from BAE Systems' Warton site in Lancashire using single-seat instrumented production aircraft IPA6, "the trials demonstrated the latest Phase 1 enhancements to the aircraft that enable the full capability of the Paveway IV to be utilised on Typhoon for the UK customer," the airframer says.

Already integrated with the Royal Air Force's Panavia Tornado GR4 force, the Paveway IV is an all-weather weapon in the 226kg (500lb) weight class. Featuring INS/GPS and laser guidance, as well as a programmable fuze capable of providing a variety of impact effects, the bomb has been used during combat operations in Afghanistan and Libya.

Needed ASAP as when Tornado goes, we'll have a handful of F35B's so if we want to retain the offensive capability of Tornado then the Typhoon will need it. One good nugget of info later in the article says that the Paveway IV will be integrated for internal carriage on the F35B. Bit concerned that it doesn't mention external carriage though.

 

[StobieWan]

Needed ASAP as when Tornado goes, we'll have a handful of F35B's so if we want to retain the offensive capability of Tornado then the Typhoon will need it. One good nugget of info later in the article says that the Paveway IV will be integrated for internal carriage on the F35B. Bit concerned that it doesn't mention external carriage though.

The RAF webby does however:

RAF - F-35B Lightning II

Up to six Paveway IV. That'd make for a bad day down town if you'd upset anyone.

 

[RobWilliams]

Good good, when it mentioned the type of carriage rather than just in general it just made me think.

One bit on the RAF site is that it says that the 500lb class Paveway IV will replace the 1000lb class Paveway II and Enhanced Paveway II. It looks as though we're going to lose the 2000lb Enhanced Paveway III (the 'bunker buster') capability with the loss of Tornado as we know the F35B can't carry them and I can't remember if Typhoon is down to carry them in the far future.

I know it's very much a specialised weapon and smaller yield weapons would by and large be more appropriate but like what happened in Libya, we had a brace of weapons like Brimstone and Paveway IV for when collatoral damage needs to be minimised but we still deployed EPWIII to attack hardened structures.