RMAF Future; need opinions

Subangite

New Member
weasel1962 said:
No 4. is WMKJ Senai airport, Johore.

Oh by the way, your link for Kluang is actually not Kluang, but Gong Kedak AFB.

WMAP Kluang Airport can't be seen clearly on google earth/maps.

This is Kluang:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...823,103.307533&spn=0.040744,0.086517&t=k&om=1
 
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Subangite

New Member
Dzirhan Mahadzir JDW Correspondent
Kuala Lumpur

Malaysia will de-activate its Russian Aircraft Corporation (RSK) MiG MiG-29N multirole fighter aircraft fleet in 2007 to ensure enough fighter pilots are available to operate the Sukhoi Su-30MKMs that will be delivered that same year.

The decision was made by the Malaysian Armed Forces in light of the fact that the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) has a shortage of qualified pilots and cannot make up the numbers in time to accommodate the entry of the Sukhois into RMAF service.
The RMAF's shortage of pilots stems from a combination of a lack of sufficient aircraft for lead-in fighter training, currently about 11 Aermacchi MB-339As, and shortcomings in the pilot training programme that were addressed in 2003, the ramifications of which are only now being felt.

In addition, a number of RMAF pilots have opted to leave the service for civil aviation, particularly in light of the demand for pilots by Malaysia's low-cost aviation carrier, Air Asia.

Currently the RMAF has one operational MiG-29 squadron, Squadron 19 based at RMAF Kuantan, that contains all 16 aircraft in the inventory. However, readiness problems have resulted in a low number of the fleet being operationally ready, although the newly appointed squadron commander is working to improve the situation.

While details of their de-activation schedule are still being worked on, the MiG-29s are due to be placed in storage rather than being sold off to a third party because the RMAF hopes to bring the aircraft back into service once sufficient pilots are available.
The shortage of lead-in fighter aircraft trainers will be addressed through the purchase of eight MB-339 C/Ds, which is currently being negotiated.

Meanwhile, the RMAF's plans to purchase an undisclosed amount of Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) bomb kits appears to be stalled owing to the fact that the purchase would also require upgrades to be made to the RMAF's Boeing F-18Ds in order to operate the JDAMs.

The upgrades would entail additional funding that is expected to be unavailable given Malaysia's budgetary constraints.
Recent news, Mig29's are to be de-activated and are going into storage due to a lack of pilots, I was quite unaware of how severe the problem was, that it warrants de-activation and storage of aircraft.

Possible upgrades of F-18Ds to be equipped with JDAMS, suggests that Malaysia won't take up the Boeing offer of Super Hornets anytime soon, budgetary constraints cited that JDAM upgrade funding won't even be availible. The future where the RMAF operates the super hornets seems to be bleak, in my opinion.
 
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renjer

New Member
Well, this is a form of rationalization of the RMAF's fleet I suppose. Not necessarily a bad thing.

weasel1962 said:
I've always tot that the E/F deal was unlikely once the Su30 deal went through. Some young chappie declared some years back that he would commit suicide if the RMAF didn't acquire both the Su30 and E/F on the fighterplanes forum (which he claimed then to cite "internal" sources of the impending trade-in). I hope he doesn't carry out his foolish declaration.
I think he is here in this forum as well. You heard weasel1962: Don't do it!
 

Subangite

New Member
renjer said:
Well, this is a form of rationalization of the RMAF's fleet I suppose. Not necessarily a bad thing.
Yes, definately not such a bad thing, as has been said frequently by quite a few of us on this forum, the RMAF operates a highly varied fleet, rationalisation would definately have its advantages, especially considering that there are also other more pressing procurement needs for the service, such as replacing the old Nuri workhorse helicopters, the repeated calls for AEW&C aircraft, amongst other things, I think the priority to replace the Nuris supersedes that of replacing less than decade old RMAF hornets. Realistically, we all know Malaysia has a small defence budget allocation, if the super hornet purchase ever went through we all knew it wouldn't be in the near future.

renjer said:
I think he is here in this forum as well. You heard weasel1962: Don't do it!
Huh, What are you guys talking about? Come on lets not be so esoteric, share it with all of us. By the way, what is this fighterplanes forum thing you guys are talking about, how about sending me the link?

weasel1962 said:
Tongue in cheek, the RMAF would resolve its pilot problems far more easily if the inefficient, state run airlines were to be disbanded. Of course, that wouldn't happen
I absolutely, wholeheartedly totally agree with you on this one!! I find our view is in the minority. Why don't the policy makers stop meddling and distorting the local commercial aviation sector and let the market operate, especially since it inadvertently affects the RMAF.

In my opinion the government has no place bailing out a commercial aviation entity, its not in the governments business to do that, it has directly affected the RMAF with pilot shortages because of the current domestic aviation liberalisation.

Which begs the question, are other countries with the same situation affected similarly? Are the IAF experiencing the same pilot shortages as the RMAF as a result, following domestic liberalisation of the local (inefficient) aviation market, like Malaysia? The RMAF should have priority over the pride and prestige of Malaysian commercial carriers. In the long run it is better for all concerned, the RMAF and the local avaition sector.
 
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alexz

New Member
Maybe Malaysia needs to reactivate the University Air Squadron concept it disbanded years ago. This will get more undergraduates to know more about the air force and maybe enter it after graduating. But this time pls do it wholeheartedly and get some personnels from the RAF UAS to get it moving etc...

RMAF still got lots of surplus aerotiga's and that can be used to start the UAS
 

Zaphael

New Member
Well, I think RMAF really has to look into retaining the pilots they've trained. If their air force is not willing to offer a competitive salary, then they will continue to lose pilots to civilian carriers. Maybe not to MAS or Air Asia, but also to other foreign airlines as well.

I suspect one of the major reasons that also contributed to the Mig-29s being storeds is the amount of time it spends in maintenance and its parts wearing out too quickly. The current Mig-29Ns are not brand new airframes at all, though they've been well refurbished. Russian planes built during the cold war just aren't built to last.
 

alexz

New Member
All of RMAF's MiG's are newbuild airframes, and they purposely reopened the production line for the Malaysian planes although at that time there is around 40-50 completed MiG-29 airframes being stored around the production plant.
 

Zaphael

New Member
Well, from what I understood from the situation at that point of time, there were some disagreements and discrepancies in their negotiations with the Russians on the MiG-29 purchase. We were following it rather closely back then... quite exciting really. In anycase, due to those disagreements, I suspect the MiG-29s the RMAF recieved weren't totally new. Though I do not have those documentations anymore, I'll try to dig up some on the WWW.

One of them was this, in 1992, when they first considered the MiG-29.
Excerpt from the Herald Tribune.
"The Commonwealth also would accept a substantial part of the payment in palm oil and other Malaysian commodities, rather than cash, the sources said.
.
An undertaking by the Commonwealth to start deliveries of the MiG-29s next year, much earlier than competing Western planes would be available, is also an attractive feature of the offer, according to Malaysian analysts.
.
They said that many, if not all, the MiG-29s required by Malaysia could be drawn from surplus stock following cancellations of orders by the Russian Air Force as part of military cutbacks ordered by President Boris N. Yeltsin."

Here's another bit. From sci.fi too.. =D
"The Malaysian MiG-29's were at first considered to be a "fat back" Fulcrum A mod 1. By the time the aircraft started delivery in July 1995 it became clear that the RMAF MiG-29's would be basic Fulcrum A (non-fatback variety), but with MiG-29S flight control, suspension, and weapon system upgrades. Unique to Malaysia is the new reliability gear box on the engines and the flight control roll limiter and rudder enhancer. "

So Russia opens up productions lines for a small order of 18 Fulcrums, and produces 18 Fulcrum As (non fatback) for less than $330 million real currency? Yes, the deal included products such as palm oil and fabrics... but plant workers don't work for palm oil and fabric. And it after much delay, the contracts for the Mig-29s were signed in June 94, and the Russians managed to deliver by July 95, just ONE year? And they delivered brand new Fulcrum A air frames? When they still had 100+ Mig-29s in storage?

Some of the previous documents I previously had access to (and somehow wounded up on the internet, though I cant seem to find that site now), suspects that additional MiG-29As were retired from a certain Air Force, together with existing stored MiG-29s were taken, and refurbished into MiG-29Ns.

Shortly after recieving the MiG-29"N"s, they were against sent for refurbishing, incorporated with western avionics, radar upgrade as well as some work with the wing hard points to allow the fulcrum to shoot AMRAAMs. Its not often that I see brand new aircraft that needs this much re-work.

In anycase, the RMAF's Fulcrums are magnificent aircraft, and kudos to its pilots and technicians for being able to handle such a maintenance intensive aircraft til today. Before the RMAF selected the MiG-29s over the F/A-18s (before RMAF acquired the hornets too), a US Lt Col, did warn the RMAF about the Fulcrums being more maintenance costly in the long run. IMO, RMAF should have gone with more hornets.
 

Zaphael

New Member
Well, the websites you listed reinforced the allegation that they were indeed Fulcrum As on the time of delivery, not MiG-29Ns.

If you allow me to just copy n paste selectively.

Malaysian local designation of its new-build version of the MiG-29SD. 16 single-seat MiG-29Ns (from production batches 52 and 53) and two two-seat MiG-29NUBs delivered in 1995 for Nos. 17 and 19 Squadrons RMAF. Normal T-O weight 15,000 kg (33,068 lb). Maximum T-O weight 20,000 kg (44,090 lb), maximum weapon load 2,000 kg (4,409 lb). N019ZM radar. All being upgraded at 800 hours servicing to "full MiG-29N standard", with a 3,000 kg (6,614 lb) weapon load.
cross ref to:

MiG-29SD Fulcrum-A (type 9.12?)

Export upgrade of the basic MiG-29 (9.12), with most of the SE improvements, plus provisions for the “Dozaprahvka” - inflight refuelling.
Export upgrade... of an older model? I'm not sure, but the norm for really "new build" export versions are generally downgrades. To me, logically, an export upgrade means u take an existing plane, add some new stuff to it, then you sell it.

To continue on...

All being upgraded at 800 hours servicing to `full MiG-29N standard', with 3,000 kg (6,614 lb) weapon load; Raytheon IFF; cockpit placards in English; voice warning system, instruments and displays calibrated in feet, knots, feet/minute and nautical miles, in-flight refuelling system using retractable extending probe on port side of front fuselage, AN/ARN-139 Tacan, GPS and ILS. First upgraded aircraft (M43-12) flew on 13 April 1998. Armament includes R-27R1 and R-73E1 AAMs, GSh-301 gun; upgrade adds RVV-AE (R-77; AA-12 `Adder') capability, allied to Phazotron N019ME radar with twin target BVR potential. Performance as MiG-29S except ceiling 18,000 m (59,050 ft). RD-33 engines modified to extend service life.
US$34.4 million, 18-month contract signed 16 October 1997 to upgrade Malaysian aircraft to full SE/SM standards. Payload 4,000 kg (8,818 lb), AAR probe, R-77 capability, radar and systems upgrade incorporated by Aerospace Technologies Systems Corporation at Kuantan between January 1998 and late 1999. First two returned to service on 2 May 1998. Strong interest in further upgrade to MiG-29SMT standards.
I'm sure what I point out doesnt mean much on its own. But altogether, it casts some doubts on whether those aircraft were really really brand new aircraft. Other suspicions that was put forward was that the RMAF test and trialed a significantly more advanced Fulcrum [SE/SM :hehe ] compared to the ones they recieved.

I'm not here to prove anything. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having our own opinions and beliefs to the origins of the Migs. You can stick to yours, I'll stick to mine. ;)
 

alexz

New Member
Zaphael said:
All being upgraded at 800 hours servicing to `full MiG-29N standard', with 3,000 kg (6,614 lb) weapon load; Raytheon IFF; cockpit placards in English; voice warning system, instruments and displays calibrated in feet, knots, feet/minute and nautical miles, in-flight refuelling system using retractable extending probe on port side of front fuselage, AN/ARN-139 Tacan, GPS and ILS. First upgraded aircraft (M43-12) flew on 13 April 1998.

What that meant in plain english is that the delivered brand new MiG-29N's after flying 800 hours in RMAF service were upgraded to the final MiG-29N configuration. Look at the time that the 1st upgraded aircraft flew. Its clearly after all the MiG's were delivered to Malaysia.

I owned an AFM magazine last time (lost it) with the pics of the reopened production line with malaysian MiG's (semi-finished state with RMAF fin flash on the tailfin), and pictures of lots of finished planes outside of the factory.
 

Zaphael

New Member
Well my apologies. Maybe I read too much into the subtleties of the language.

To me when I see that sentence, "upgraded to FULL MiG-29N standards", i see a subtle suggestion that the RMAF expected a FULL MiG-29N standard aircraft upon delivery, but did not recieve as such. Hence the later upgrade.

As for the "new build," that may or may not be interpreted as brand new air frames. From the scratch construction instead of pieced together or remodifying of existing frames. Of course, Im not gonna challenge that designation.

What we found peculiar was the re-opening of a production line for a small qty of relatively old (and existing) aircraft, when stored ones were available. And for a relatively small sum of hard curency in payment too.
 

Subangite

New Member
Zaphael said:
Well my apologies. Maybe I read too much into the subtleties of the language.

To me when I see that sentence, "upgraded to FULL MiG-29N standards", i see a subtle suggestion that the RMAF expected a FULL MiG-29N standard aircraft upon delivery, but did not recieve as such. Hence the later upgrade.

As for the "new build," that may or may not be interpreted as brand new air frames. From the scratch construction instead of pieced together or remodifying of existing frames. Of course, Im not gonna challenge that designation.

What we found peculiar was the re-opening of a production line for a small qty of relatively old (and existing) aircraft, when stored ones were available. And for a relatively small sum of hard curency in payment too.

I read it as the Malaysian MiG-29s were upgraded to feature Westernized avionics and add other improvements during production, which like the newly ordered Su-30MKM, the RMAF usually goes for some sort of upgrade in terms of western avionics and systems, rather than the stock standard aircraft in the Russian service, whatever the case maybe, the Malaysian MiGs are a capable aircraft in the regional context regardless of new build or stored, as has been noted by serveral commentators, like the Australian Strategic Policy Institute.

I see the MiGs staying in the Malaysian service for some time, since these aircraft are being stored instead of sold to a third country. I wonder if the attrition MiGs would be replaced now that the Su-30MKMs are coming online, or if the MiG29's are to be further upgraded. Where does this leave the F/A 18 planes in the RMAF since plans are afoot to add JDAM capabilities, does this signal further aircraft hornets are to be purchased in the not too distant future?
 
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