Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Discussing the Technical Requirements of the 2 new Landing Platform Docks for the Philippine Navy ~ MaxDefense Philippines

From maxdefense, Philippines forefront military forum. Seems their Navy put requisition specs for 2 new LPD.

PAL has been able to supply 2 LPD so far to Philippines. However one of conditions that the next LPD is to be build in Philippines (at least one of them).
Thus I think more on who already has shipyard facility or shipyard partner in Philippines.
Damen and Hanjin already has facilities in there, thus Damen can put their LPD design and potentially able to build one right away in Philippines.
Hanjin facility probably can be used by Korean contender (like DaeSun) to build their LPD design.
PAL so far has no partner in Philippines, thus has to look for one (PAL when bidding for Malaysian MRSS has partnered with Boulstead), thus this can potentially reduce one of their advantage which is cost.

One other potential contender is Austal since they has facility in Cebu. Austal already put bidding for OPV in Philippines and will used their Cebu facilities to build those if winning (this put advantage in cost and 'build in Philipines' factors).
However for LPD ? Can their EPF or their Fast Fery design modified for LPD's ?
Their Cebu facilities has been used to build fast Fery, and some LPD design like from Daesun (thus PAL) derived from Fery design.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Since becoming president in June 2016, Duterte has supported the military modernization program that President Benigno Aquino III relaunched. Duterte has increased the 2017 defense budget by 15 percent (but from a very low base) and the supplemental allocation for the modernization program from $400 million to $500 million, approved the acquisition of two corvettes from South Korea, and received five TC-90 reconnaissance aircraft from Japan.

Two Chinese shipbuilders in January expressed interest in the company, according to Philippine Trade Undersecretary Ceferino Rodolfo. But a senator and a retired navy officer quickly sounded the alarm, warning that Chinese ownership of the site would pose a threat to national security.
PAL so far has no partner in Philippines, thus has to look for one (PAL when bidding for Malaysian MRSS has partnered with Boulstead), thus this can potentially reduce one of their advantage which is cost.
Things are not what they seem. Some in the Duterte Administration want to make use of PAL to get better offers from others, including Chinese and Japanese, for example, Mitsui Engineering & Shipbuilding (Mitsui E&S) to buy Hanjin's shipyard.
Discussing the Technical Requirements of the 2 new Landing Platform Docks for the Philippine Navy ~ MaxDefense Philippines

From maxdefense, Philippines forefront military forum. Seems their Navy put requisition specs for 2 new LPD.

PAL has been able to supply 2 LPD so far to Philippines.
If the Pinoys are serious, they will just do a follow on order with PAL - as the SSVs are very cheap. But that is not the case. PAL should just stay away.
However one of conditions that the next LPD is to be build in Philippines (at least one of them).
Thus I think more on who already has shipyard facility or shipyard partner in Philippines.
Haha. I suspect that even that Japanese will not want to build there for just 2 ships. If there is a firm order for 8 to 12 ships, the cash flow generated may be worth the effort. Otherwise, who wants to buy a shipyard in the Philippines, with a recession coming? For 2 only, the cash flow will not be there to justify any investment.
Damen and Hanjin already has facilities in there, thus Damen can put their LPD design and potentially able to build one right away in Philippines.
IMO Damen is going to try with their design.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Things are not what they seem. Some in the Duterte Administration want to make use of PAL to get better offers from others, including Chinese and Japanese, for example, Mitsui Engineering & Shipbuilding (Mitsui E&S) to buy Hanjin's shipyard.

If the Pinoys are serious, do they do a follow on order with PAL - as the SSVs are very cheap. But that is not the case.

Haha. I suspect that even that Japanese will not want to build there for just 2 ships. If there is a firm order for 8 to 12 ships, the cash flow generated may be worth the effort. Otherwise, who wants to buy a shipyard in the Philippines, with a recession coming? For 2 only, the cash flow will not be there to justify any investment.

IMO Damen is going to try with their design.
Yes, if only the matter of cost then I do believe PAL will have the advantage. However as you have put, things is not seems related to cost only.

From the original ASEAN 5 only Philippines so far that has not used their own shipyard to build some of their Navy vessels lately. Even Vietnam with Damen facility there already build OPV for their coast guard and Russian missile boats on their other government owned shipyard.

So I do see the politically incentives moves to build locally. That's where PAL in my opinion will have disadvantage, since they don't have partner yet. PAL has experience using partner on bidding, with Boulstead for Malaysian MRSS where Boulstead will manufacture PAL design.

However finding right partner with right capabilities and capacity is another matter in Philippines. With Malaysian bidding, Boulstead is still the forefront on Malaysian bidding industry, where in Philippines the forefront in the industries are foreign owned shipyards.

Agree, I do believe Damen will try their owned design to build in their own facility. Which in my opinion put them in the advantage situation compared to PAL.
Mitsui has their Owned LPD design (as they have shown in the recent MAST in Japan), but as you have point out, they need more incentives to buy out trouble Hanjin Shipyard then just contract for 2 LPD.
Thus so far I still see Damen in advantage position.

Austal in my opinion can still come, if they can modify their Fery design (which they have build so far from their Cebu facilities) for LPD or something that close to LPD design. With 'build locally incentives' in my opinion in can be an attraction politically. If not mistaken they once join with Raytheon on LPD bidding for USN. However I don't know how far they can modify an USN intended design to meet Philippines costs.

Well it all come back to how serious and how much budget the Philippines wants to put in this project.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
I sadly say that the Philippines is not noted for it's ability to unite ASEAN or get it's own military modernization house in order. The US-Philippines Enhanced Defense Cooperation Agreement (EDCA) has languished with the current Duterte Administration until they realised that their swing to China does not help them — the same story of too little, and too late. John C. Law, Deputy Chief of Mission of the US Embassy in the Philippines, said in May 2019 that aside from the security and military assistance, which are already here, “the US government is also providing the Philippines some US$60 to US$70 million a year mainly for the conduct of exchange programs”. In 2018, the US gave US$110 million to the country for the procurement of US military equipment, the biggest financial assistance that the US has provided to an Indo-Pacific region country. The US official said that after the infamous Marawi City siege, the USAID provided $59 million to help the displaced families with their basic necessities such as food, water, and shelter.

More money for naval procurement alone will not solve their problems. Their relevant procurement organisations are not mature enough to start a build fully fledged local plan. And yet they push forward with a piss poor and under resourced plan under the undue influence of the Davao Group.
Well it all come back to how serious and how much budget the Philippines wants to put in this project.
IMO, Pinoys in government talk too much, do too little (in their budget allocation) and have no real desire to build local capability - their procurement process lacks professionalism. As I mentioned earlier, some in the Duterte Administration want to make use of PAL to get better offers from other parties like Mitsui in relation to a bid to revive Hanjin Heavy Industries and Construction’s yard in Subic Bay, Zambales.

Typically, if you ask a Pinoy, they will say it is the lack of budget that results in this lack of professionalism. I would argue that it is their lack of professionalism (or chronic piss poor planning) that results in poor resource allocation by the state. If the Pinoys could plan, they would have planned more, like 3 to 4 strategic sealift vessels (instead of just 2 Tarlac-class from PAL) or 4 to 6 corvettes from South Korea instead of 2. They are chronically doing less than the minimum.
Thus so far I still see Damen in advantage position.
Hard to be optimistic for Damen for their bid to supply 2 LPDs. The invitation to bid bulletin, posted at the DND website, also said that the landing docks must have a minimum gross capacity of 7,000 tons. Also, the Philippine Navy requires tie-up with local companies or shipyards so that a minimum of one landing dock can be constructed in the Philippines.

Duterte is also considering a state-backed rescue of Hanjin, in which the government could take a minority stake, Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana told the Senate in January. But Finance Secretary Carlos Dominguez, the head of Duterte's economic team, said he would wait for the private sector to reach an agreement. Hanjin has invested some US$2.3 billion in the Subic economic zone since it set up the shipyard in 2006. Under Hanjin's ownership, the shipyard had built 123 vessels by 2018, including oil tankers and merchant ships, making the Philippines one of the top shipbuilding nations in the world. But slower demand and delays in payments from buyers squeezed HHIC-Phil's cash flow.

IMO, Damen are a stalking horse and Duterte’s economic team hopes that Damen will be silly enough buy HHIC-Phil. It's a waste of money and time to bid for only 2 of a class (because of the endless delays that will come) to be built locally - as there will be no follow-on order. Systems Adict has a post in another thread to explain how ship builders optimise through a build cycle of 48 months.
I'd like to address the 'drumbeat' comments on here & the timescales being paraded / reduced / increased & seeing more action than a prostitutes undergarments on a busy Saturday night !

Firstly, lets look at things practically - For those involved in any recent, technically advanced warship manufacturing projects (Like AWD / T45), the 1st ship takes longer than all the others, as it is a prototype. The 2nd ship will not be as long, but will still be close to the 'stated timescale'. The 3rd ship is where most of the snags / build issues have been removed & timescales can initially start to be 'reduced'. If you maintain a build programme, building multiple ships of the same class, by the time you get to 6th ship, you are probably at maximum speed.

One of the key factors on the actual speed of the drumbeat is the resources available. IF you start with 1000 shipyard workers to build the 1st ship (including all levels of management / designers / quality control / inspection & test), you have about 600 people who are actually 'on the ship' with the rest being office based. To maintain a 'drumbeat, you have to start the 2nd hull, before the 1st hull is complete as a steel-work ship (i.e. ready to be put into the water, with major components fitted, but not really a ship that can go sailing anywhere). That 2nd hull will take about 300 of the 600 available.

As ships are often built from the stern, going forward, it makes sense that the next ship is constructed that way too, as you can take the guys from the 1st hull & transfer them across onto the 2nd hull, as they've done it all before, so will have a good idea of how it goes together & where the problems are.

To 'increase' the speed of production, at this point the shipyard has to take on more staff. The reality of this is that if you want to go from 24 to 18 months you need to find about 300 bodies. Throw into that mix that most large engineering firms lose about 50 - 60 staff a year, between retirement / deaths / sackings & people moving onto new jobs, you will have lost about 200 bodies from the workforce

All these facts start to mount up, they drive drive up costs, in-build issues can appear as new staff do things different from 'regulars' who've been on the project from the start. Then there's the 'Customer Wish List' of adding changes / improvements into a hull as the class progresses. The shipyard will be wary of costs & budgets, so will aim to do 'more with less' by the time they get to ship 5, as management will be looking at reducing the biggest overhead in any major engineering project, labour costs.

The practicalities of a construction project of this type & size, is that 24 months between hulls leaving the build yard / entering the hands of the navy, IS about as fast as you really want the ships (unless you're going to war / have lost a hull from the fleet, due to incident / accident). Building faster means the navy needs to find more sailors, they have to be trained, fed/watered/housed & all the other factors that influence fleet numbers of staff. Population numbers in most 1st world, Westernised countries are actually reducing, as we have less children than our grandparents generation, so there are less bodies available to become 'NEW' sailors. Most of our population is at or over 50, so more sailors are leaving, than the Navy can recruit.

So...

Does it REALLY make sense to go beyond the 24 month drumbeat ???

Rant over

SA
The AFP’s Defense Acquisition System (or procurement process) is so badly broken, no one can lead it properly any more. Their reforms do more harm than good. So they punish virtue and reward incompetence. In March 2019, Commodore Alberto B. Carlos, the chairman of Philippine Navy Bids and Awards Committee said the Philippine Navy will establish a one-stop shop for all procurement needs of the Navy. To me, this is a joke, if their navy does not have a one-stop shop for procurement at this day and age.

Even if the budget is there for the 2 LPDs, are the members of different Defense Acquisition System Assessment Teams, Technical Working Groups, Project Monitoring Teams, Bids and Awards Committees, Procurement Units, Joint Personal Staffs, and other AFP Units and Offices, able to work without undue influence from the Davao Group?
Austal in my opinion can still come, if they can modify their Fery design (which they have build so far from their Cebu facilities) for LPD or something that close to LPD design. With 'build locally incentives' in my opinion in can be an attraction politically.
Same reason as above. But at least they are in the running for 2 classes, including for 6 Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPVs) being proposed for the Philippine Navy.
If not mistaken they once join with Raytheon on LPD bidding for USN. However I don't know how far they can modify an USN intended design to meet Philippines costs.
Haha. Long shot.
 
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tonnyc

Well-Known Member
Slight correction. Damen does not have a facility in the Philippines. Damen has a local partner instead. Propmech. However as best as I can tell Propmech is known for making boats. The largest naval ship I know Propmech made was BRP Tagbanua, a 51 m LCU.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Slight correction. Damen does not have a facility in the Philippines. Damen has a local partner instead. Propmech. However as best as I can tell Propmech is known for making boats. The largest naval ship I know Propmech made was BRP Tagbanua, a 51 m LCU.
Ahh..My Bad..seems I miss took their meaning from their web site on their intentions to increase their representation in Philipines business.

Turn out their talking about this:
Dutch and US groups show interest in Philippine shipyard rescue

Seems besides their existing partnership in Philipines..they are also looking as potential take over on Hanjin Shipyard in Subic.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Post 1 of 2:
Finally, after 9 years of talking here, we finally see pictures of the new warships being built and giving us an idea of their capability.

Philippine Navy's first ever missile-capable warship hits water

On 24 October 2016, the contract to supply two brand new vessels was signed between the Philippine Department of National Defense, and Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI). The first frigate ordered from HHI under this contract, the future BRP Jose Rizal (FF-150) was launched in May 2019 and built based on the Incheon/FFX-I/HDF-3000. The BRP Jose Rizal is scheduled to be delivered to the Philippines by September 2020.

The keel laying ceremony for Philippine Navy’s second future BRP Antonio Luna (FF-151) was held at Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) shipyard in South Korea on 23 May 2019 and slated for delivery in March 2021. Finally, a real new build warship after years of talk. This will be their navy's most capable warships when they enter service. These vessels will be a good match with the newly delivered AgustaWestland AW159 Mk.220 Wildcat naval helicopters and are also expected to escort the two Tarlac-class landing dock platforms, the BRP Tarlac (LD-601) and BRP Davao del Sur (LD-602), while on missions. Prior to this, it could be argued that the former Hamilton-class cutters, hand me downs from the US Coast Guard were the Philippine Navy’s most capable warships that are in service.
1. Beyond the two new corvettes being built in South Korea, it has been reported by Maxdefense that two of the three Jacinto-class patrol vessels, namely the BRP Emilio Jacinto (PS-35) and BRP Apolinario Mabini (PS-36) will both be re-entering service with the Philippine Navy, with PS-36 re-accepted into service as part of the Philippine Navy's 121st Founding Anniversary celebrations in May 2019.
That's a very remarkable development....after many months of licking-the-arses-of-the-Chinese policy...while having a hostile attitude towards the US. Or maybe he already asked permission from the Chinese for this.
2. We note that Malacañang has called for an investigation into the sinking of a Filipino fishing boat following a collision with Chinese vessel off Recto Bank on and presented their point of view at the UN. On 9 June 2019, a Philippine fishing vessel anchored in Recto Bank in Palawan, in the West Philippine Sea, sank after an incident with a Chinese vessel — which has caused some anger locally and raised concerns for the pro-China Duterte administration. The 22 Filipino crew were left in the water until a Vietnamese vessel took them on board. This incident prompted Duterte to express "concern and disappointment over the delay in the negotiations for a Code of Conduct (COC) in the South China Sea." In view of this incident which is a turning point for the pro-China Duterte administration, it is timely to see that the Pinoys get more hulls, like the PS-35 and PS-36 back into the water; and they need to fund their navy to ensure that these hulls conduct regular patrols of their EEZ.
I think that before you talk capability, you have to talk the strategy behind it. Try as I might I simply can’t think of any plausible scenario that would see a power try to destroy merchant ships wholesale on the high seas.

When we discuss this of course, we are really discussing China. While Russia has the ability to cause a nuisance in places like the middle east that will disrupt trade (and drive up oil prices to their own benefit) they certainly don’t have the moxy to destroy trade anywhere relevant to Australia. So that leaves China.

But how does China making a concerted effort to destroy international trade, like Germany in the world wars, possibly align with their national interest? They want to control the world trade, not destroy it. International trade, and the prosperity it brings to China, is the only thing keeping the domestic population happy and content (and stopping them getting all finger-pointy at the government). Take away that prosperity and China’s own population would become a much bigger problem than any external aggressor (hence why China are trying to develop their domestic consumer appetite, and reduce reliance on exports for their growth).

I can certainly see China deliberately disrupting trade, in an un-attributable way, as a cassius bellito stick their nose where is doesn’t belong (‘the continued disruption of international trade has forced us to deploy a naval task group to the Malacca Straights to secure trade in the region…’), but wholesale destruction of the world’s merchant ships can’t possibly be in their national interest.

Comparisons to the world wars aren’t very helpful, in my opinion.
3. I agree with what Raven22 said. In most other forums, the Pinoys are so emotional and polarised in their method of discussion. IMHO, the Pinoys need to rebuild their reputation (instead of being seen as law breaker) and be seen on the side of rule of law and supportive of trade (instead of hindering it, by being a source of instability). In this regard, the Philippines and Indonesia cheered at the completion of domestic requirements for the entry into force of a landmark agreement on the delimitation of exclusive economic zone (EEZ) boundary between two countries, when Duterte and Widodo met on 22 June 2019 on the sidelines of the 34th Association of Southeast Asian Nations Summit in Bangkok. After two decades of negotiations, the Philippines and Indonesia signed the agreement on EEZ boundary in 2014 during the state visit of former Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono. To delimit the overlapping EEZs of two countries, the agreement included the annexed charts showing the EEZ boundary of two counties in the Mindanao Sea and the Celebes Sea in the southern Philippines and in the Philippine Sea on the southern section of Pacific Ocean.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Post 2 of 2:

4. While I sometimes throw my arms up in dispair over the Pinoy lack of proper processes and at the slow implementation, there has been signs of slow but steady progress in 2019. Two AW159 Wildcat helicopters belonging to the Philippine Navy (PN) arrived in the Philippines on 7 May 2019. This is a dramatic increase in PN naval war fighting capability - the point at which their navy becomes more capable than many other regional coast guards, in war fighting capability. But I caution that the ability to execute the specified course of action for a navy depends on the relationship between three key factors, as follows:

(a) combat readiness/availability;

(b) sustainable capability; and

(c) force structure.​

5. For a navy to perform its role, we must also look at all three interdependent key factors and the four sub-elements of combat readiness/availability, which includes (i) type and classes of vessels; (ii) training of the people; (iii) strength and balance of the flotilla; and (iv) the shore side infrastructure to support the flotilla. This means that each factor or sub-element on its own, do not tell the whole story about naval capability. The capital intensive nature of naval expansion has reinforced the tendency to neglect naval development in ASEAN countries. For the often neglected ASEAN navies, we note as follows:

(a) Bernard Cole’s 2013 "Asian Maritime Strategies: Navigating Troubled Waters, summarizes that “most of the region’s nations are embarked in a naval modernization effort, although none of them realistically aspires to more than an increase in defensive capability." With regard to the Philippines (and its Strategic Sail Plan 2020), there are some answers to the 5 key questions to ask:​

Q1: What does Cole say about the Philippines Navy?
  • Well, primarily that it is “more a vision than a fleet in being.”
Q2: Will the Philippines have a credible Navy that the Philippines can be proud of by 2020 or 2026?
  • The answer must be no.
  • The Philippine navy (with a total 2017 defence budget for all services of USD4.9 billion – a 33.7 per cent real increase on the 2016 defence budget) finds itself in the position where its ships are continuing to rust away while the need for maritime capability remains important in maintaining it's claims in the South China Sea.
  • There is inadequate funding for the 2012 Philippine Fleet Desired Force Mix - for the acquisition within a 15-year-period of six frigates configured for anti-air warfare, 12 corvettes for anti-submarine warfare; and 18 OPVs. Continued piss poor planning and illogical setting of priority will ONLY squander the scarce amount of money allocated. With only 2 new corvettes being built in South Korea, it is likely only to improve from a constabulary navy, to a navy capable of inshore territorial defense. IMO, the approach matters - with the need to focus on key priorities for weak powers, rather than just an aspiration (without the necessary resources) or an unrealistic vision.
Q3: Who are the top ASEAN Navies to watch?
  • The ASEAN navies to watch closely for dramatic capability improvements going forward, are those of:
(1) Vietnam with a 2017 defence budget of USD4.3 billion – a 4.7 per cent increase on the 2016 budget with their plans to fight in the littorals;
(2) Thailand with a 2017 defence budget of USD6.1 billion – a 5 per cent real increase on the 2016 defence budget; and
(3) Indonesia's Minimum Essential Force concept with a 2017 defence budget of USD7.7 billion – a 3.5 per cent real increase on the 2016 defence budget.
(b) Commenting on the South China Sea navies in 2013, Geoffrey Till noted that "the Vietnamese, Taiwanese and Philippine navies all know they would have no hope of prevailing, or even of surviving, against a much more powerful and implacably resolute Chinese navy." But things are not so simple. "Such a victory by China would simply confirm ‘the China threat theory’ and undermine its claim to be rising peacefully." It could spark counteractions by others. Moreover all three navies know that in any such calculation, were such an extremely unlikely event ever to come to pass, PLA(N) campaign planners would have to keep back, the bulk of their naval forces to guard against the possibility of American intervention. Vietnam with its acquisition of six Kilo submarines is plainly investing in its own version of an anti-access and sea denial strategy.

Q4: What is Southeast Asia Navy Rankings, circa 2014?
  • Rank 5: Adjacent Shipping Protection or AjSP (Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand)
- offshore territorial defense capabilities and some ability to project force beyond its EEZ​
  • Rank 6: Offshore Territorial defence (Indonesia, Vietnam)
- some offshore territorial defence capabilities and some ability to project force beyond its EEZ​
  • Rank 7: Inshore territorial defence (Brunei, Myanmar)
- limted territorial defence capabilities up to EEZ limits​
  • Rank 8: Constabulary (Philippines, Cambodia)
- basically a coast guard​
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
I hope for the sake of the Philippine Navy, that they will be able to acquire at least 2 more of the BRP Conrado Yap (PS-39) class of vessels second hand (formerly the South Korean Pohang-class, flight III, corvette "Chungju"). BRP Conrado Yap will sail to the Philippines shortly after handover ceremonies on 5 August 2019. The South Korean vessel was formally donated to the Philippines in 2014 and finally collected in 2019 due to delays in Pinoy funding for rehabilitation of the ship. Given the inordinate delay induced by the Pinoys, not sure if the Koreans will be willing to donate more vessels (as the Koreans have already donated 2 ships of this class to the far more responsive Vietnamese Navy). For details see: South Korea-donated PH Navy ship set to sail home August 5.

For a hand me down navy, this is an important patrol capability and the start of developing an ASW capability (that they lost) for the Pinoys with the Conrado Yap class. I note that having one ASW vessel is not a capability — it takes at least 2 of a class to retain a limited capability or 4 of a class for year round ASW patrols.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
I hope for the sake of the Philippine Navy, that they will be able to acquire at least 2 more of the BRP Conrado Yap (PS-39) class of vessels second hand (formerly the South Korean Pohang-class, flight III, corvette "Chungju"). BRP Conrado Yap will sail to the Philippines shortly after handover ceremonies on 5 August 2019. The South Korean vessel was formally donated to the Philippines in 2014 and finally collected in 2019 due to delays in Pinoy funding for rehabilitation of the ship. Given the inordinate delay induced by the Pinoys, not sure if the Koreans will be willing to donate more vessels (as the Koreans have already donated 2 ships of this class to the far more responsive Vietnamese Navy). For details see: South Korea-donated PH Navy ship set to sail home August 5.

For a hand me down navy, this is an important patrol and the start of developing an ASW capability (that they lost) for the Pinoys with the Conrado Yap class. I note that having one ASW vessel is not a capability — it takes at least 2 of a class to retain a limited capability or 4 of a class for year round ASW patrols.
This is for sure a very usable asset for the Philippine Navy, together with the ex-USCG ships one of the most powerful vessels, until the arrival of the Korean built Incheon Class frigates.

"However, Zata said the BRP Conrado Yap will be escorted home by the strategic sealift vessel, BRP Davao Del Sur (LD-602), which is now on its way to South Korea after attending Russian Navy Day celebrations in Vladivostok last week.

"(BRP) Davao Del Sur will sail with her (on the way home). She is on her way now (to South Korea)," he added. Upon arrival and commissioning by the PN, the BRP Conrado Yap will boost the Navy's anti-submarine and anti-surface capabilities."

The Tarlac Class LPDs are maybe the best acquisition of the last decades for the PN.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
This is for sure a very usable asset for the Philippine Navy, together with the ex-USCG ships one of the most powerful vessels, until the arrival of the Korean built Incheon Class frigates.
Agreed. Provided the Pinoys allocate enough POL for BRP Conrado Yap to conduct the occasional patrols. But if they are really serious about ASW training, they will need to learn how to function as a fighting fleet (i.e. develop a capability that they do not currently possess).
"(BRP) Davao Del Sur will sail with her (on the way home). She is on her way now (to South Korea)," he added. Upon arrival and commissioning by the PN, the BRP Conrado Yap will boost the Navy's anti-submarine and anti-surface capabilities."

The Tarlac Class LPDs are maybe the best acquisition of the last decades for the PN.
The Tarlac Class LPDs at USD107 million for 2 are best value buys. If the Pinoys were sensible, they will get 2 more of the same but that does not seem to be the case (see: SBB#3 dated 10 July 2019 and SBB#4 dated 25 Jul 2019).

On 18 June 2019, Janes reported that the approved budget for the the Philippine Navy's Landing Dock acquisition is PHP5.56 billion (USD107 million), including a provision for four organic landing craft utility (LCU) vessels, four rigid-hull inflatable boats (RHIBs), and an integrated logistics support package. According to the blogger, cited by Ananda, there is now a new requirement for technology transfer, for a tie-up with local shipbuilder to build one of the ships in the Philippines and grant the navy the ownership of design or allow license production of the design.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
In the time period that ST Marine in Singapore built an Endurance Class vessel for Thailand, 4 Ofouq Class vessels for Oman and 8 Independence Class littoral mission vessels for Singapore, the slow moving Pinoys managed to buy 4 new vessels, from 3rd countries (i.e. 2x corvettes from Hyundai Heavy Industries Co., Ltd. in Korea and 2x LPDs from PT PAL (Persero) in Indonesia); and obtained 4 hand me downs (i.e. 3x ex-CG vessels and BRP Conrado Yap).

Not sure if I should celebrate for the Pinoys or wave my hands in despair at the rate of progress with their new naval ship procurement process — with yet another failed bidding. There is obviously a lack of sincerity to treat the ship builder Indonesia's PT PAL (Persero) fairly. The insistence of building 1 in the Philippines is commercially illogical. If it was an order for 6 to 8 vessels along with an extra US$25 million to US$50 million (as a 1-time payment for the technical package), it might make sense; but as it stands this is a commercially unreasonable demand.
Discussing the Technical Requirements of the 2 new Landing Platform Docks for the Philippine Navy ~ MaxDefense Philippines

From maxdefense, Philippines forefront military forum. Seems their Navy put requisition specs for 2 new LPD.

PAL has been able to supply 2 LPD so far to Philippines. However one of conditions that the next LPD is to be build in Philippines (at least one of them).
Thus I think more on who already has shipyard facility or shipyard partner in Philippines.
Damen and Hanjin already has facilities in there, thus Damen can put their LPD design and potentially able to build one right away in Philippines.
Hanjin facility probably can be used by Korean contender (like DaeSun) to build their LPD design.
PAL so far has no partner in Philippines...
According to the blogger’s Facebook page, the submission and opening of bids for the Philippine Navy's Landing Dock Acquisition Project occurred today. Only 1 proponent submitted a bid — Indonesia's PT PAL (Persero). But its bid was rejected and PT PAL was disqualified, apparently for being not able to comply with the requirement to build one of the ships in the Philippines.
 
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ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Australian company Austal has joined with the US private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management and made a bid to take over the Subic Bay shipyard from from collapsed Korean company Hanjin Heavy Industries - HHI.
Reported in “The Australian” today (sorry no link) the Philippine govt has almost certainly agreed to the takeover to fend off a bid by two Chinese companies.
Subic Bay is strategically important to all major players in the South China Sea and is less than 100 nm from the disputed Scarborough Shoals.
Those who have been to Subic before it’s closure as a US base in 1992 will understand the potential disruption if the PLA was to gain access.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Australian company Austal has joined with the US private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management and made a bid to take over the Subic Bay shipyard from from collapsed Korean company Hanjin Heavy Industries - HHI.
Reported in “The Australian” today (sorry no link) the Philippine govt has almost certainly agreed to the takeover to fend off a bid by two Chinese companies.
Subic Bay is strategically important to all major players in the South China Sea and is less than 100 nm from the disputed Scarborough Shoals.
Those who have been to Subic before it’s closure as a US base in 1992 will understand the potential disruption if the PLA was to gain access.
The worst thing that can happen is that the Subic Bay shipyard falls in to chinese hands. It is actually unbelievable that the government doesnt take the initiative to take over the shipyard.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Australian company Austal has joined with the US private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management and made a bid to take over the Subic Bay shipyard from from collapsed Korean company Hanjin Heavy Industries - HHI.
I hope the Pinoys are sensible and place some coast guard and navy ship orders to feed the workers at the Subic Bay shipyard — if Cerberus Capital Management along with Austal wins this bid.
The worst thing that can happen is that the Subic Bay shipyard falls in to chinese hands. It is actually unbelievable that the government doesnt take the initiative to take over the shipyard. See: The Australian — Austal consortium bid.
But its more fun in the Philippines — the twists and turns to do anything basic is so many under their very dysfunctional system.

There news reports of Austal Philippines being tasked to build 6 Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPVs) for the Philippine Navy in their yard, in Cebu (see: Austal tapped to build PH Navy ships). A blogger has suggested that recent announcements by Sec. Lorenzana mentioned that the project is now a Government to Government (G2G) deal with Australia, which means previous potential bidders from other countries are off the list. See: Offshore Patrol Vessel Acquisition Project of the Philippine Navy ~ MaxDefense Philippines. On the plus side, G2G will avoid the failed bid syndrome that occurred for the latest LPD bid.

More importantly, the Australians can train the 1st set of crew for the class, as Australia has operated the Cape class since 2013, if I am not wrong.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
They better sort something out with their coastguard and navy because recently Chinese naval vessels, on four occasions, have sailed through the Sibutu Strait, without permission. The Sibutu Strait is on the southern part of the Philippines, well outside the illegal Chinese nine dashed line. Also two Chinese research ships have been operating in the Philippine EEZ.


Source: Chinese warships seen 3 times near Tawi-tawi in August, says AFP


Source: Chinese warships 'not hostile' but did not coordinate with Philippines | Philstar.com
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
If you think about it, this thread was started in May 2010, to keep track of Pinoy efforts at naval modernisation, with significant American aid — the transfer of 3x CG cutters and coastal radars for domain awareness over the years. After 9 years of effort at modernisation, where are the Pinoys? Have they been successful at their efforts to get from crawl, to walk, to run? Or are they still at crawl (and unable to keep up with their more progressive ASEAN neighbours)?

For contrast, look at:

(i) Vietnam, in the same 9 year period — they have progressed from crawl to walk — with 6 new Kilo class submarines, 2 new Hoang class frigates are based on the Gepard 3.9 design (Project 1166.1), the induction of 2 Pohang-class corvettes and a number of new missile equipped vessels in service. It is clear that by 2026 Vietnam’s Navy will grow to be capable of Adjacent Shipping Protection (AjSP) into the next basin and sea denial. Vietnam’s navy can resist China’s efforts in the South China Sea and to give the PLA(N) and China’s maritime militia a bloody nose, if necessary. A Vietnamese military official advocates developing a more modern, better skilled navy that can hold off complex threats, mainly what experts believe to be increasing pressure from China. He told the official Viet Nam News on 6 August 2019 that the navy could not be taken by surprise at any development; and

(ii) Singapore, in the same 9 year period — the smallest country by land size in ASEAN progressed from walk to run, who has (a) completed a Life Extension Programme for 6 Victory class corvettes (which will be replaced by the 5,000 ton MRCV, at a later date); (b) built 8 littoral mission vessels and their different modules; and (c) placed 2 orders for a total of 4 Type 218SGs (to replace the 4 renaming Challenger and Archer class submarines), to modernise Singapore’s little Navy to deal with geo-strategic change.​

The Pinoys are modernising at a unchanged crawl rate over the last 9 years. IMHO, they are not on even on track to being able to walk on their own, yet. Can they even be considered the sick man of Asia, any more? Or is this an inherent (or birth) defect that cannot be cured? The Philippine Navy is noted for being creative in resource utilisation and managing to in keep WWII era vessels afloat and running until they were replaced by the 40 year old ex-CG vessels but they are not a modern navy. I heard rumours that the Pinoy Navy took part in a naval exercise with others (that I will not name) — their ex-CG vessel that took part was sunk in around 20 mins. They are literally a 15 min navy — tactically incompetent by modern standards and likely to be sunk quickly at the start of any hostilities.

It’s wrong to expect too much from the Philippine Navy — they have a culture problem that they don’t intend to really fix.

The long delay in the transfer of the BRP Conrado Yap, is instructive of Pinoy sense of urgency. The Koreans have told them in 2014 that a ship of this class can be transferred to them (which was rejected due to the poor condition of the 1st ship). The Pinoys were slow to pay for any required refurbishment or send their people training, to enable their navy to collect a ‘free’ ship in a timely manner. It’s their country and their choices. We have to respect their desire to keep at this pace.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Agree, the Philippines' location on the West-Pacific makes the Philippines prone to earthquakes and typhoons, but it has also has a lot of natural resources, and with more than 100.000.000 inhabitants it should have enough budget to modernise their armed forces at a faster rate. But it seems all the administrations of the last decades do not take defence seriously.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Australian company Austal has joined with the US private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management and made a bid to take over the Subic Bay shipyard from from collapsed Korean company Hanjin Heavy Industries - HHI.
I suspect that Cerberus Capital Management will get burned (to get the ROI required) in their investment in the Philippines, but I do appreciate that for Philippine security reasons — they should win against any Chinese bid at Subic. Austal is smart in seeking a partner to reduce risk. I just hope the Philipine government will treat the investors to Subic well, as investors, by giving the yard enough orders for a decent ROI in the next 4 to 5 years.

For the Austal Philippines built OPVs (from the Cebu yard), with G2G contracting, they can cut out or keep at bay the greedy local middlemen — who will usually angle to get a cut, even post purchase.
Agree, the Philippines' location on the West-Pacific makes the Philippines prone to earthquakes and typhoons, but it has also has a lot of natural resources, and with more than 100.000.000 inhabitants it should have enough budget to modernise their armed forces at a faster rate. But it seems all the administrations of the last decades do not take deftence seriously.
It’s a no brainer to buy 2 more BRP Jose Rizal class corvettes from HHI and 2 more LPDs from PT PAL (Persero) — just repeat the prior order or process (with the same specs). If the Pinoys bought 2 more BRP Jose Rizal class corvettes, as a follow on order, I am sure the Koreans would transfer 1 more sister ship (to BRP Conrado Yap), to the Philippine Navy. Buy 2 get 1 free. But as usual they got greedy in drawing up unreasonable specifications for the LPDs— their corrupt officials need to be paid more or another corrupt official needs a turn at the feeding trough. This is part of the broader culture problem that I referred to.

IMO, the Pinoys should quickly get the 4 above vessels under contract with HHI and PT PAL (Persero) for 4 ships of each class, plus the 6 OPVs by Austal Philippines (if they are serious about quickly getting more hulls in the water for patrols). And the Philippine Navy needs 4 ships of each class to maintain a 24/7 year round capability to deploy from a raise, train and sustain perspective — as they don’t have a capable in-house contracting processes and local industry to support their navy.
 
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tonnyc

Well-Known Member
Agree, the Philippines' location on the West-Pacific makes the Philippines prone to earthquakes and typhoons, but it has also has a lot of natural resources, and with more than 100.000.000 inhabitants it should have enough budget to modernise their armed forces at a faster rate. But it seems all the administrations of the last decades do not take defence seriously.
The Philippines can double their defense budget without suffering any ill effect. No need to raise taxes. No need to cut actual spending. Even pork barrels (political handouts) can be accommodated. All that is needed is a willingness to take a close look at what was actually spent vs. what was budgeted, and then next year adjust the budget so that it's more reflective of the actual situation. In Feb 2019 the Department of Budget and Management admitted that of the 2017 state budget, PHP 828.75 billion was unspent (note: this is actually two years worth of underspending, as the 2016's unspent budget got rolled into 2017). The 2017 defense budget was 137.2 billion peso. This was not a one-off either, though the Philippine government claimed that they didn't underspend at all in 2018. But since this has apparently went on for years before, had they rationalized the budget years ago, they could have a doubled defense budget for 5-6 years, possibly more, and still have enough money leftover to hand out to various politicians for their pet projects. Various departments would've gotten their budget cut on paper, but as history has shown, they didn't actually spend all that money anyway, so actual spending wouldn't be affected.

(Note that just because they spent the budget for 2018 doesn't automatically mean they spent it well. I haven't seen any evidence of any major defense system purchase for 2018. Most of the budget increase, as far as I can tell, went to raising salaries and bonuses. In fact I'm quite skeptical of the actual progress of the current Build Build Build program, but we'll see.)

@OPSSG Re: the LPD. The LPD should have gone directly to G2G negotiation rather than bid out. The folks in the Indonesian Ministry of Trade would've then been able to point out that there isn't a shipyard in the Philippines that are both capable and willing to build the ship. The big shipyards are capable, but they have their own projects and aren't interested in this, and there are smaller shipyards who wants to build an LPD, but they aren't capable of doing so. Some sort of compromise could then be found, like maybe a long term credit or an off-set trade deal or something. If the OPV can go direct to G2G negotiation without having to go through the bid-fail-bid-fail dance, then we can all save time by having the LPD go straight to G2G negotiation too.
 
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