There is a Youtube video of HMNZS Wellington riding out a storm in the Great Southern Ocean which more than adequately shows her prowess in gigantic seas (sorry can't get the link to work)
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Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates
- Thread starter gforce
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There is a Youtube video of HMNZS Wellington riding out a storm in the Great Southern Ocean which more than adequately shows her prowess in gigantic seas (sorry can't get the link to work)
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It all boils down to cash. At the end of the day, what the PN should get is a cost effective design that is a economical to operate and to maintain - able to perform a whole list of peactime duties that are currently being performed by a fleet that is on average more than 50 years old! Bear in mind that apart from the ex-USCG Cutter and the ex-Peacock class the bulk of the fleet is more than 50 years old and should have been consigned to a srapyard or a museum a long tome ago but haven't, thanks to the politicians! The reason they got the ex-USCG Cutter and are in talks over the Maestrales is because there are currently no funds for anything else and that the PN urgently needs hulls in the water - hopefully the next hulls ordered will be newly built. Once funds are available, there is no shortage of designs to choose from. South Korean shipyards for one, have a number of designs ranging ftom 1,200 to 5,000 tonnes, its a matter of what the customer can afford and what the operational requirements are.
PN's plans inlcude newbuilds but they may not be all about war ships with teeth. As mentioned in local forums and newpapers, its a mix of sea vessels and air assets to provide for a capability or a minimum credible defense posture. From 6 frigates configured for AAW, 12 corvettes for ASW, 18 OPVs, to Strategic Sealift vessels, LCUs, etc. Right now at the rate of plans are going, its going to take a little longer to have these realized. And yes, more importantly money, along with political support from approving bodies is crucial to this plan. Despite having a president who is serious enough (compared to his predecessors) to modernize the Armed Forces, it has been a roller coaster ride (for major acquisitions) for the AFP modernization. Recently - the PN had RFI from the US (FBO solicitation) for an OPV, this was made last year.
Yes I agree that the PN should get the most "bang-for-buck" ships that are hopefully new but they need to train first to use it especially the modern ones since as stated, they are operating assets that are more than 50 yr old. That might take time though. Look at the WHECs are the first step, a slightly "modern" platform, then the Maestrales as the missile-firing second step. Now for the third step, the PN might look at ships that are according to their specifications or those that they could manage.
All I'm saying is that it might take a while since there is also an air force to modernize.
Besides, some political entities believed that the US will just keep spitting serviceable junks every time we needed it. Only if the threat is visible on the horizon will the politicians move.
All I'm saying is that it might take a while since there is also an air force to modernize.
Besides, some political entities believed that the US will just keep spitting serviceable junks every time we needed it. Only if the threat is visible on the horizon will the politicians move.
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Slow and steady - recently acquired MPACs (a small craft for interdiction and patrols driven by water jets - similar to Swedish CB-90) were purchased and the second batch of three just commissioned in the PN recently, locally built LCUs now operating, the first Hamilton class cutter (BRP Gregorio del Pilar) is now on patrol - first ship in PN inventory with rather modern gas turbine engines. Coast Watch system in northwestern Mindanao and in other parts of Ph is up and had been providing security in sea borders. Talks on acquiring Italian frigates - a modernized Maestrale (or at least with most if not all its weapons intact), even mentioned the Minerva class corvette also up for disposal by MMI, and three choppers for PN use also coming from the same country. I would say its a little slack but, hey, the PN-Dept. of Nat'l. Defense still had them going. Just a thought, the PN may also consider looking into the trail which the PCG took recently and announced acquiring a 80-85m OPV from France.
Good Day Sir, .I am not good in Navy equipment, but just like to ask question sir, i just read in defense-studies.blogspot.com that the PN is acquiring an ASW for their capability to search for submarine and to be used for their maestrale class missile firing warship, my question sir is ASW helicopter has the capacity to destroy submarine or they just use in monitoring or searching submarines in sea?, . .. thank you sir
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
The answer is "usually" but it really depends on ship and helicopter fitout. An ASW helicopter will usually have sonobuoys and a dipping sonar to search for subs with, and 1 - 2 lightweight torpedoes or depth bombs/charges to attack with. Depending on the sophistication of the naval force, there may be a datalink between the helicopter and surface vessel is it embarked on. If there is, then a common picture can be created using contact returns from the helicopter and the sonar arrays aboard the ship. In addition, the ship can launch attacks on contacts the helicopter makes even if it has depleted its stores.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Related on that, From PhilStar : http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2012/11/19/868597/military-buy-2-anti-submarine-choppers
Just highlighted two things:
1. Brand new ASW Helicopter
2. No Information from which producers will be acquired.
It will be stationed in Maestrale Frigates, thus in my mind has to be in the similar class with the old AB 212 ASW. For me what cross my mind is AW 159 which basically improved version of Westland Super Lynx. Since Westland now part of Agusta Westland and control by Finmeccanica, then perhaps the Italian can provide better deal on that.
I tend to believe since they are going to get ex Italian Frigates, then for business purpose an Italian ASW helicopter can be wrap-up in one packages with ex Maestrale Frigates.
An Italian ASW frigates that already mature and only slightly larger then AB 212 ASW (which basically Maestrale standard ASW Helicopter), only AW 159 that come to my mind. AW 101 or NH90 (in which Agusta Westland also part of the project), seems larger than what Maestrale used to operated, and also bit more expensive.
Any other thought ?
Just highlighted two things:
1. Brand new ASW Helicopter
2. No Information from which producers will be acquired.
It will be stationed in Maestrale Frigates, thus in my mind has to be in the similar class with the old AB 212 ASW. For me what cross my mind is AW 159 which basically improved version of Westland Super Lynx. Since Westland now part of Agusta Westland and control by Finmeccanica, then perhaps the Italian can provide better deal on that.
I tend to believe since they are going to get ex Italian Frigates, then for business purpose an Italian ASW helicopter can be wrap-up in one packages with ex Maestrale Frigates.
An Italian ASW frigates that already mature and only slightly larger then AB 212 ASW (which basically Maestrale standard ASW Helicopter), only AW 159 that come to my mind. AW 101 or NH90 (in which Agusta Westland also part of the project), seems larger than what Maestrale used to operated, and also bit more expensive.
Any other thought ?
Hi Sir, local newspaper does say - ASW (Anti-submarine) choppers and stationed in the (soon to be) acquired Maestrale Frigates (hopefully frigates arrive by next year's end). BTW, recent publications says it's two (not three as I had posted earlier) with a budget of about Php 2.5B each (roughly $60M). Since it indicates anti-submarine capabilities perhaps they may include or are fitted for submarine hunting equipment and/or torps (sonar, can be equipped with torpedos, etc.). Also, there were no details shared, hence, we can only speculate. Options as posted by sir A, just to add to the list, EC Dauphin? Also, I read some article that MMI had the NH90 NFH replace AB-212 for the ASW role on board the Maestrales. Thanks,
fretburner
Banned Member
^ Can the PN buy SeaHawks with that money?
The NH90 has been mentioned a few times, but most news of that helo has been a lot of complaints from customers. Meanwhile, those who picked the MH-60R/S or Lynx are usually happy campers.
The NH90 has been mentioned a few times, but most news of that helo has been a lot of complaints from customers. Meanwhile, those who picked the MH-60R/S or Lynx are usually happy campers.
Seahawks are medium weight helioopters and larger in size than a Dolphin or Seasprite, much less a AB-212, basically a naval Huey. Frankly, I am not so sure the Maestrale class frigates hangar is large enough to house a Seahawk. Money doesn't enter into the picture if they don't.
If a helo does not have the ability to 'destroy' subs, it can't really be called an ASW helo. If the 'mothership' does not have a sonar and the helicopter does not have a dipping sonar, the only way for it to detect subs would be visually which would only be possible if the sub was surfaced or was operating in very shallow waters - and to destroy it depth charges would be needed. It is often forgotten that in many areas in South East Asia where there are shallow waters, such as the Melaka Straits and places in the South China Sea within the continental shelf, subs can be spotted visually from the air. The cheapest option would be just to get a design that has already been integrated to carry a torp and for it to rely on the 'mothership' for targeting data - this is what the Royal Malaysian Navy [RMN] does with its Mk300 Super Lynxs. The more expensive but more effective solution will be fitting the helicopter with a dipping sonar.
fretburner
Banned Member
I had to google the sizes of those helos... I thought they weren't too far apart in size. But the Seahawk is about 7m longer. That's a LOT. Even longer than the NH-90. I guess there's not a lot of options for the Maestrales. How "cheap" are those Lynx?
Depends upon how many are purchased and how much the support packages are. It is the same with practically every weapon system. But I am sure buying refurbished second hand used helicopters will be considerably cheaper. An exact price is hard to figure.
I believe either a naval Huey, a Dauphin, a Lynx, or a Seasprite will fill the Philippines needs. But I won't address the price.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
ASW helicopters will also routinely carry sonobuoys. The RAN S-70B-2 Seahawks are in the ASW configuration, less the dipping sonar. However, they are equipped with sonobuoys. Ideally though, something operating in & around the local island changes should have dipping sonar, sonobuoys and lidar. As for armament, lightweight torpedoes and/or depth bombs. And preferably some sort of datalink.
-Cheers
Do any major navies still operate depth charges from aircraft? The Soviets/Russians did from their Mays but I'm not sure if this is still the case.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Hard to say. The UK appears to still have Mk 11 depth charges in inventory, with them having been cleared for use from Lynx, Merlin, NH90, Sea King, and Wasp helicopters. AFAIK only the Lynx, Merlin and NH90 are cleared for the current version, which is the Mk 11 Mod 3. Not sure who else apart from the Brits still use them.
-Cheers
fretburner
Banned Member
Right. Anyway, whatever they pick is good with me
It's a new capability and is the right step forward for the PN.Isn't the P-8A Poseidon supposed to be able to drop torpedoes, JDAMs and depth charges?
erwinfrancisco
New Member
yes, why not a land based/coastal antiship missile system like what the crats have with with RBS-15 missiles. with a range of 250 km that should be more than enough to cover the panatag shoal. it has to be truck based though like the croats are doing to present less of an easy target. Not only is it cheaper than a ship based system it also is unmistakably defensive in posture. why not? they can set it up sooner rather than shopping around first for a naval platform. set up the missile first and then if need be and IF funds allow also have it ship based too.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
One serious issue for any PN AShM deployment, whether they be ship or land-based, is the limitations imposed by the AFP's C3/C4 ISR assets. AShM with 250+ km range are OTH weaponry, which means that unless there is some sort of offsite ISR which can monitor the desired areas, and then relay/queue targeting information to the shooters, such weapons become useless. IMO the PN would be better off fitting any incoming vessels with air defence systems, to at least start being more familiar with, and able to defend themselves against, aerial attacks. Even if such systems were just VSRAD SAM and CIWS would provide more capabilities and flexibility (in terms of where PN vessels could operate) than strike of AShM packages.
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