Peruvian navy help

[tatra]

Albatros/Gepard -> wood
Komar -> wood
PT -> wood
almost all MTB -> wood

Numbers over the past 100 years heavily favour wood. Steel in bignumbers was used on e.g. the Osa and Hegu classes. A couple classes of 4-8 ships have no impact on the overall numbers really.

In modern ships of this role, steel has less than a 50% market share.

Yep 143/143A based on the Lurssen FPB-57 are wood but the newer 148 is steel. The follow-on Type 148s are based on the French La Combattante II, which like Combattante IIa and III are steel hulled.

(wooden) Komar > replaced in productions by (steel) OSA
(wooden) PT > WWII era ships, built from wood in part due to steel shortages.
(wooden) MTB > WWII era ships, see above

We're not talking about the past 100 years but about what's in used or on the market today. Like it of not, most FACs of today are no longer wooden. I did also mention aluminium (alloy) and plastic. If you have market data, do please post.

 

[kato]

Yep 143/143A based on the Lurssen FPB-57 are wood but the newer 148 is steel. The follow-on Type 148s are based on the French La Combattante II, which like Combattante IIa and III are steel hulled.

Type 143 Albatros (first comm. 1976) and 143A Gepard (first comm. 1982) are newer than Type 148 Tiger (first comm. 1972).

Albatros and Gepard were the final (West) German FAC. The Type 148 were only acquired because the development of Type 143 was not finalized when they were needed to replace the Type 140 Jaguar class. Combattante II were chosen purely on cost reasons when a quick intermediate solution had to be found.
20 Type 148 were therefore procured to replace the 20 Type 140, while the 10 Type 143 later replaced the 10 Type 141.

Original plans were to acquire 40 Type 143 as the sole German FAC type (plans at the time actually called for 50-60 units).

Btw: The 30 Type 140/141 torpedo boats were also wooden-hulled.

We're not talking about the past 100 years

I am though. See:

Most western (and Russian) FACs were made from (non-magnetic) wood actually, or FRP in newer systems.

 

[tatra]

Type 143 Albatros (first comm. 1976) and 143A Gepard (first comm. 1982) are newer than Type 148 Tiger (first comm. 1972).

Albatros and Gepard were the final (West) German FAC. The Type 148 were only acquired because the development of Type 143 was not finalized when they were needed to replace the Type 140 Jaguar class. Combattante II were chosen purely on cost reasons when a quick intermediate solution had to be found.
20 Type 148 were therefore procured to replace the 20 Type 140, while the 10 Type 143 later replaced the 10 Type 141.

Original plans were to acquire 40 Type 143 as the sole German FAC type (plans at the time actually called for 50-60 units).

Btw: The 30 Type 140/141 torpedo boats were also wooden-hulled.


I am though. See:

Yes, I know that Type 140/141 was. And goody, you got me as far as the chronological order of 143 and 148. It still is all irrelevant. We were talking about future ships for the Peruvian navy. I suggested SF300 and mentioned its side benefit of offering MCM capability. Then you claimed SF300 would be a poor choice due to ... well, I don't know what ... and you suggested any FAC could do MCM work with drones ... which I don't see any FAC doing anywhere. If you look at FACs being offered today the you will find most are not wooden. No matter how many past classes of craft were wooden.

You also for no good reason dismiss Mosaic and small LPDs and AORs. In fact, you are just here for a pissing contest. As you are not truely discussion options for the Peruvian navy. So, again, I bid you goodbye.

 

[contedicavour]

After reading the preceding posts, some of the thoughts for the Peruvian navy look to me totally unrealistic... Ticonderogas

Reality is that Peru has just made a major financial effort to procure the 4 Italian Lupo to complement their original 4. This was urgently needed to replace the ageing Dutch gun cruisers and the 1950s vintage British escorts.

The next priority will be in SSKs replacement. Even if they have 6, 2 are always in reserve and the others are feeling their age... U214 is the more likely candidate, ideally with sub-Harpoon or SM39 if the US doesn't provide the sub-Harpoons.

Then some serious amphibious transport capability should be considered to replace totally obsolete WW2 vintage LSTs. I'm surprised no American LSTs have been acquired recently. When Italy will start building new LPDHs Peru might acquire one or more of the Santi class 7000 tonne LPDHs.

An upgrade package for the 8 Lupos should include Aspide 2000 (as the Brazilians did on their Niteroi) improving range & speed of the SAMs. NH90s replacing AB212 would also vastly increase ASW and ASUW capability (this last one with Marte Mk2S with 25-30km range).

cheers

 

[tatra]

Priority wise I think you are spot on ConteDdiCavour.

As for the Type 143 Albatros:

"Die Klasse 143 ist als Komposit-Holz-Stahlbau unter Verwendung von Leichtmetall für den Aufbautenbereich ausgelegt.... Die Schnellboote der Klasse 148 sind als Stahlbauten mit Leichtmetallspanten und Leichtmetallaufbauten ausgelegt. "

http://www.rk-gammertingen.de/in_marine.html

143: Composite wood-steel structure, using light alloy for the superstructure.
148: Steel structure with light alloy frames and light alloy superstructures

 

[ASFC]

Actually, a variant of the Korean-built (Daesun Shipbuilding & Engineering Co) Makassar class LPDs for Indonesia would seem ideal. They're about 10K tons, & seemingly transport-oriented. And they're very cheap. Two of them would do nicely. Perhaps a smaller helicopter deck.

Also available in a smaller size, I think

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KRI_Makassar_class

There is an update on this. It seems that Peru is now going to be getting some Newports from the US here.

Pointless if you ask me, the operating costs are going to be sky high. Mind they will be pretty cheap to acquire if they are a short term solution.

 

[kato]

Wonderful, two ships built 39 and 37 years ago that have been mothballed for 17 and 15 years respectively.

That leaves only two Newports in mothballs, LST-1187 and LST-1190, and gives Peru two vessels that pretty much all other second-hand users are now discarding.

 

[harryriedl]

There is an update on this. It seems that Peru is now going to be getting some Newports from the US here.

Pointless if you ask me, the operating costs are going to be sky high. Mind they will be pretty cheap to acquire if they are a short term solution.

stupid question but are these Newport FMS so Peru is only paying for it to be upgrades to make it combat worthy

 

[StevoJH]

stupid question but are these Newport FMS so Peru is only paying for it to be upgrades to make it combat worthy

To make those things combatworthy, the australian upgrades were a complete modernisation that practically rebuilt the whole ships. This was in the late 1990's, the ships will be replaced in the next 5 or 6 years by a pair of 30kt LHD's.

Personally i don't think un modernised Newports would be useful for much more then disaster relief these days.

 

[swerve]

There is an update on this. It seems that Peru is now going to be getting some Newports from the US here.

Pointless if you ask me, the operating costs are going to be sky high. Mind they will be pretty cheap to acquire if they are a short term solution.

Operating costs will be high if they're operated. Keep 'em in port & take them out for a little cruise occasionally to check they still work & they may not cost much to run.

I think Peru could be better off with something like the Makasar LPDs Indonesia is getting - Korean-designed, first two Korean-built. Cheap to buy, cheap to operate, with nice low-maintenance modern diesel engines.

 

[tatra]

To make those things combatworthy, the australian upgrades were a complete modernisation that practically rebuilt the whole ships. This was in the late 1990's, the ships will be replaced in the next 5 or 6 years by a pair of 30kt LHD's.

Personally i don't think un modernised Newports would be useful for much more then disaster relief these days.

How do you mean "combat worthy"? IIRC, LST's are designed to pick up stuff at point A (e.g. home/base port) and deliver it at point B (some beach). They are not meant to do combat (basic self-defense and some fire-support at best).

If you are referring to the usefullness of LSTs in general, that can be debated (but without reference to specific shipclasses). Mind you, Indian navy and Russian navy as well as Chinese navy are still building and using LSTs. They apparently do not consider such ships useless, the adoption of LPDs and LHDs elsewhere notwithstanding.

 

[StevoJH]

How do you mean "combat worthy"? IIRC, LST's are designed to pick up stuff at point A (e.g. home/base port) and deliver it at point B (some beach). They are not meant to do combat (basic self-defense and some fire-support at best).

If you are referring to the usefullness of LSTs in general, that can be debated (but without reference to specific shipclasses). Mind you, Indian navy and Russian navy as well as Chinese navy are still building and using LSTs. They apparently do not consider such ships useless, the adoption of LPDs and LHDs elsewhere notwithstanding.

I meant, to carry out that task with a more then slight chance of survival in a high threat environment, the australian upgrade means they now carry 4 or so blackhawks or sea kings with flight operations from both a forward and a rear flight deck

 

[Sea Toby]

Operating costs will be high if they're operated. Keep 'em in port & take them out for a little cruise occasionally to check they still work & they may not cost much to run.

I think Peru could be better off with something like the Makasar LPDs Indonesia is getting - Korean-designed, first two Korean-built. Cheap to buy, cheap to operate, with nice low-maintenance modern diesel engines.

Unfortunately, as with used frigates the South Americans buy, old used ships costs much less than new cheap ships. The only new ships they will buy are submarines, only because there aren't many old subs still sea worthy. Most use up the lives of their few submarines.

The South Americans will buy new patrol ships too. Venezuela is the only oil rich nation with defense funds to spare.

 

[contedicavour]

I don't understand why there's so much criticism of this ... gift of Newports to Peru. If you go have a look at Jane's Fighting ships you'll see that Peru's Marines use WW2 vintage completely obsolete amphibs. The Newports are a huge step forward even if I agree that a modern cheap LPD would have been much better. They still need to afford it though. Eventually the Italian Santi class LPDs will be available around 2015-2020 and might be transferred. In the meanwhile it's a step forward costing only maintenance support.

cheers

 

[Chuncho]

Contedicavour is right, right now Peru has 2 Terrebone Parrish build in the '40s or '50s. for us 2 Newports will be a huge step forward for anphibs and transport purposes. Remember that Peru is growing economically (just got investment grade a few weeks ago) and in the coming years we will see a more modernize navy as money is pouring in. The Peruvian Navy (MGP - Marina de Guerra del Peru) follows the line of the MMI and probably will get new ships as they disband theirs for newer ones.

 

[jayanthi]

Peruvian submarines

Sir,
Nice article.

I had reached this page when I was looking for details about refit of Submarines of Peruvian Navy

Can you please suggest some link for me to refer

Thanking you

Jayanthi

Peru’s navy
I was looking for ideas on how to upgrade Peru’s navy main surface war ships. Kind of fun thing I’m trying to do and the goal or point would be trying to bring them up to higher standards. I’m looking for ideas and suggestions and curious to see how this will go. I am not strong in naval warfare at all and couldn’t tell a bad ship design from a good one nor do I know prices. It you had to rebuild Peru’s navy to say protect new off shore oil platforms near Ecuador and Chile’s borders, how would you do it?

Peru confirms over 1 billion barrels of oil reserves
Peru confirms over 1 billion barrels of oil reserves_English_Xinhua

I don’t like using List of Peruvian Navy ships - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia as a source but can’t seem to find a current 2008 list of Peru’s surface warships.

I attached a link to a French ship builder I just saw and articles about delivering Frigates to Singapore’s navy. These ships look so advance to anything Peru currently has are any of the different class ships Peru has worth upgrading.
3 New Frigates Boost Singapore Navy's 'Green-water' Capabilities
3 New Frigates Boost Singapore Navy's 'Green-water' Capabilities - Defense News
Thanks in advance for any help in this odd post of mind.

 

[Chuncho]

Sir,
Nice article.

I had reached this page when I was looking for details about refit of Submarines of Peruvian Navy

Can you please suggest some link for me to refer

Thanking you

Jayanthi

Hello Jayanthi,

There isn't any link, nor exist any official statement from the navy that there is an upgrade for the 6 peruvian submarines (U-2091100/1200). The only rumors we know is that there are some talks between our navy and the argetinian navy to do an major overhaul of at least 2 U-209/1200 but not details yet of the equipment, arms, etc that will contitute such program.

 

[Salty Dog]

Hello Jayanthi,

There isn't any link, nor exist any official statement from the navy that there is an upgrade for the 6 peruvian submarines (U-2091100/1200). The only rumors we know is that there are some talks between our navy and the argetinian navy to do an major overhaul of at least 2 U-209/1200 but not details yet of the equipment, arms, etc that will contitute such program.

Where would the overhaul take place? This is interesting since Argentina had their Type 209 overhauled in Brazil.

 

[jayanthi]

Peruvian submarines

Hello Jayanthi,

There isn't any link, nor exist any official statement from the navy that there is an upgrade for the 6 peruvian submarines (U-2091100/1200). The only rumors we know is that there are some talks between our navy and the argetinian navy to do an major overhaul of at least 2 U-209/1200 but not details yet of the equipment, arms, etc that will contitute such program.

Hello Mr Chuncho,

Thank you so much

But I thought these submarines have outlived their life. Almost 30 Years of service already. One more Refit / upgrade, what will be the state of the Hull ?

May be lots of work may have to be done on the hull, to give a relife

Equipment can always be changed, there should be a problem

What do you opine ?

Regards

Jayanthi

 

[Chuncho]

Where would the overhaul take place? This is interesting since Argentina had their Type 209 overhauled in Brazil.

Hello Salty Dog,

Well, if this talks finalized in an agreement probably the subs (probably 2 U-209 1200) will be worked at the CINAR (Argentinian Naval Industry Complex); Argentina right now is doing a mid life overhaul of his TR-1700 ARA San Juan since 2007, so they have the experience of cutting the hull and upgrading engines, batteries, etc...

The Peruvian Navy had send a technical committee from SIMA (Peruvian Naval Industry Services) to gather more info for a possibility of an overhaul. Some people in the spanish military forums preferred to look for HDW as the main contractor but if they are too expensive probably they will look to Korea or Brasil.