Pakistan

And what are your sources that saying the likelihood of Pakistan and India gone to nuclear exchange is lower than USSR and US risk in cold war ?

Again US and USSR has not facing each other directly in hot war, While India and Pakistan already done it. You can't state that cause you're Pakistan native or you are in the Army of Pakistan, thus it's enough to say that India and Pakistan risk for nuclear exchange is lower than anyone else.

Again US and USSR/Russia has lot off protocols and satellites network that can be used to verified and counter verified any potential nuclear build up. Something that India and Pakistan is not on that level.

Pakistan and India has higher risk on nuclear exchange is not mean both of them will have nuclear exchange tommorow. However it's clearly without the protocols that Big 5 already build toward each other, their risk is on nuclear exchange is smaller than India and Pakistan.

That article you have put is meaningless, as it's not shown how Pakistan and India have developed protocols and safe guard measure to avoid potential Nuclear exchange. It's just article on opinion of Pakistan and India already reach mutual destruction capabilities. Again US and USSR or Russia now even China has build multiple protocols and safe guard to avoid potential miss calculations or miss interpretation.

You can find multiple sources that can explain that. There's a lot off reading that shown how those protocols can avoid in several occasions of US and USSR miss interpretation.
So please, enlighten us if India and Pakistan already develop that in same level of the Big 5.

Other than that, the risk of Nuclear exchange between Pakistan and India still higher than anyone else with nuclear weapons.
You got your opinion. I got mine. I have already shared my thoughts along with sources. Clearly the experts are divided on this. I am not surprised that we are too. Frankly, I got nothing more to say on this subject. Let's just leave it at that. I don't seek hostility. I just wanted to share my thoughts and perspectives.
 
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ngatimozart

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Verified Defense Pro
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Pakistan has found itself in a right dilemma of its own making. It has really annoyed its first and second largest benefactors one time to many and now they have reacted, with the UAE banning the issue of work visas for Pakistani citizens from 18th November 2012. Pakistan has aligned itself with the Turkey-Iran-Malaysia bloc in the Muslim world which has really annoyed the Gulf States, so at the suggestion of Saudi Arabia the UAE issued the visa ban. Pakistan claimed it was because of COVID-19, but other nationals such as Bangladeshis, Filipinos, etc., didn't have their visas cancelled. The Pakistani worker places have been replaced by Indians :) This foreign policy about turn has cost the Pakistani economy more than US$5 billion in remittances, which is much needed foreign currency, and now an additional 1.2 million unemployed Pakistanis have been added to an economy which is in dire straits. A great idea - not.

 
Pakistan has found itself in a right dilemma of its own making. It has really annoyed its first and second largest benefactors one time to many and now they have reacted, with the UAE banning the issue of work visas for Pakistani citizens from 18th November 2012. Pakistan has aligned itself with the Turkey-Iran-Malaysia bloc in the Muslim world which has really annoyed the Gulf States, so at the suggestion of Saudi Arabia the UAE issued the visa ban. Pakistan claimed it was because of COVID-19, but other nationals such as Bangladeshis, Filipinos, etc., didn't have their visas cancelled. The Pakistani worker places have been replaced by Indians :) This foreign policy about turn has cost the Pakistani economy more than US$5 billion in remittances, which is much needed foreign currency, and now an additional 1.2 million unemployed Pakistanis have been added to an economy which is in dire straits. A great idea - not.

This has nothing to do with joining any bloc. There is no dilemma for Pakistan. Pakistan hasn't joined any bloc FYI. In fact, Pakistan didn't join the recent Malaysian-Turkish initiative which is a shame in my opinion. Pakistan should have joined the summit which would have been a great initiative. The vast majority of Pakistanis support joining the Malaysian-Turkish bloc over the GCC bloc.

Let me assure you. There is only one bloc that Pakistan is interested in. This bloc is between China, Iran, Turkey and other friendly regional nations.


UAE along with KSA are demanding Pakistan to accept Israel. They are also asking Pakistan to put Kashmir conflict with India on the back burner. That won't happen unless Israel accepts Palestine. Pakistan is never going to stop highlighting Kashmir on world forums. That is the official Pakistani response. The UAE/KSA blackmail against Pakistan won't work. The Pakistani state has its own stance as a sovereign nation. This stance won't change anytime soon.


The Saudis have also asked Pakistan to return 1 billion loan. Pakistan has returned this sum through Chinese assistance. This only reaffirms that China Pakistan nexus is strong as ever.


The UAE has a personal vendetta against Pakistan. The GCC bloc had demanded Pakistan to send its armed forces to fight in Yemen against Shiites. Pakistan refused. Particularly the UAE has since then taken a more anti-Pakistan stance.


The remittances are a small pie of the Pakistani GDP. Pakistan is now working regionally with Iran and China to enhance trade and export. This is something that also irks GCC bloc. Actually this development irks many more nations. Particularly the Iranian Pakistani relationship is troublesome for many GCC nations.They will have to live with it because priorities have changed.



As for the remittance blackmail against Pakistani workers. Pakistan needs such skilled workforce at home to work on CPEC. This is not as one-sided as you are claiming. If the GCC nations deport Pakistani workers, relations will affect both sides. Remember, interests are a two way street. If Pakistan has interests with GCC nations the same applies vice versa. GCC bloc will lose a lot of influence in the region which it enjoys through Pakistan. Is GCC willing to risk it all? I highly doubt that.

For the record, I don't support how immigrant workers are exploited and abused in GCC nations. It is better for Pakistani workforce to return home. Often the workers don't receive payment and have to work in terrible conditions away from home.


PS. I hope the sources are satisfactory.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
...
The Saudis have also asked Pakistan to return 1 billion loan. Pakistan has returned this sum through Chinese assistance. This only reaffirms that China Pakistan nexus is strong as ever.
...

The remittances are a small pie of the Pakistani GDP. ...
8% in 2019, according to the World Bank. Personal remittances, received (% of GDP) - Pakistan | Data That's a lot. It's almost as much as total exports - 8.8%, also according to the World Bank. Imports - 19.75%. Imagine trying to finance all those imports without any remittances.

% of GDP isn't the most important measure. % of foreign currency earnings is what you should look at, because without foreign currency you can't import.

So . . you think being dependent on China is a good thing. Given the trustworthiness of the current Chinese government, I'm not sure that's much better than being dependent on a hungry tiger. Chinese favours will have to be repaid one day.
 
8% in 2019, according to the World Bank. Personal remittances, received (% of GDP) - Pakistan | Data That's a lot. It's almost as much as total exports - 8.8%, also according to the World Bank. Imports - 19.75%. Imagine trying to finance all those imports without any remittances.

% of GDP isn't the most important measure. % of foreign currency earnings is what you should look at, because without foreign currency you can't import.

So . . you think being dependent on China is a good thing. Given the trustworthiness of the current Chinese government, I'm not sure that's much better than being dependent on a hungry tiger. Chinese favours will have to be repaid one day.
It is peanuts in greater scheme of things. Yes, Pakistan will miss some much needed inflow of cash. In the immediate term this would hurt a little. In the longer term, this will be beneficial. Let's be blunt here. GCC relations with Pakistan are quite exploitative in nature. Pakistan would do well by taking a more neutral approach and putting regional alliances with Iran and China at the top of the list. Luckily this is already happening in the shape of CPEC. In the long run, regional trade could easily surpass the meagre 5 billion remittance inflow. There is not a comparison between trade and aid/loan/remittance.

Again, the amount of suffering and humiliation the workers have to endure is a reason in itself to stand on your own feet. It is pure exploitation.

I for one am happy to see some cracks in the GCC Pakistan relations. GCC nations have a strong relation with the Western bloc. Often much of their interests and demands are tied with Western interests. That is not benificial for developing nations. Will it benefit India at the cost of Pakistan? Probably. So be it. Pakistan too has the option of investing in regional relationships. Something which should have happened ages ago anyway.

Western perspective of China versus Chinese perspective in the developing world are different. There is a day and night difference. We don't view China as hostile or untrustworthy. The West has a specific reason to paint China as a terrible nation. We understand what that specific reason is. China is a new rising power and the established powers don't approve. We are not part of this great game. We will accept Chinese investment with open arms. Especially considering that China has the expertise to deliver. For us it is a win win situation. We get massive infrastructure, energy and various other projects in return. No, we don't believe that Chinese loans are a debt trap. The Chinese loans are as much a debt trap as WB, IMF or Western loans. All loans have to be repaid. We don't diffentiate between Chinese and Western loans. In fact, Chinese loans often come with no strings attached and are easier to repay i.e. soft loans. Western loans on the contrary are often attached with many conditions. Conditions which are often deemed detrimental for national security and well-being.

All developing nations have to be dependent on one or the other major powers of the world. That is just the way the system works. If I have to pick and choose my money is with China. Unfortunately, past experience with Western aid/loan for many developing nations is not encouraging. Often the aid/loan doesn't reach the intended recipients. The money disappears with elite rulers who flee to Western capitals. Sometimes the money is used as bribe. Chinese investment is visible and the results are mostly tangible. I see new roads, houses, energy reactors, windmills, deep sea ports etc.

Is China here for charity? Of course not. The Chinese are here for return of investment. Are Western nations here for charity? Of course not. The Western countries are here for return of investment. Is return of investment a bad thing? Of course not. As long as the host nation also benefits in some form. Developing nations are simply opting for the most effective option. China wins. Nothing more nothing less.

We are not afraid of repaying favors. We will gladly repay China for trusting in Pakistan at a time when our so-called allies turned a blind eye. The last time Pakistan paid favors after allying with the West and the US during the Cold War is something we won't forget. We have indeed learnt an important lesson and we are not going to repeat that mistake again.

I fully comprehend Western frustration. The West is losing a lot of clout in the developing world because China is winning hearts and minds. It makes sense for the West to be alarmed by Chinese rise.
 
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And what are your sources that saying the likelihood of Pakistan and India gone to nuclear exchange is lower than USSR and US risk in cold war ?

Again US and USSR has not facing each other directly in hot war, While India and Pakistan already done it. You can't state that cause you're Pakistan native or you are in the Army of Pakistan, thus it's enough to say that India and Pakistan risk for nuclear exchange is lower than anyone else.

Again US and USSR/Russia has lot off protocols and satellites network that can be used to verified and counter verified any potential nuclear build up. Something that India and Pakistan is not on that level.

Pakistan and India has higher risk on nuclear exchange is not mean both of them will have nuclear exchange tommorow. However it's clearly without the protocols that Big 5 already build toward each other, their risk is on nuclear exchange is smaller than India and Pakistan.

That article you have put is meaningless, as it's not shown how Pakistan and India have developed protocols and safe guard measure to avoid potential Nuclear exchange. It's just article on opinion of Pakistan and India already reach mutual destruction capabilities. Again US and USSR or Russia now even China has build multiple protocols and safe guard to avoid potential miss calculations or miss interpretation.

You can find multiple sources that can explain that. There's a lot off reading that shown how those protocols can avoid in several occasions of US and USSR miss interpretation.
So please, enlighten us if India and Pakistan already develop that in same level of the Big 5.

Other than that, the risk of Nuclear exchange between Pakistan and India still higher than anyone else with nuclear weapons.
As often reported by Indian media and the Western media, a two front war is more likely than ever. In fact, during the recent skirmishes Pakistan was accused by Indian media for aiding China. This is what will happen between India and Pakistan:


Will this escalate into a fullblown nuclear war? I don't think so. It will however result in a covert and overt conflict where all sides are trying to hurt each other.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Haven’t heard these people protesting about what China’s is up to wrt its Muslim population, certainly more serious than frigging cartoons in France.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Thats the hypocrisy behind these protests.
Not only in Pakistan, but also in other countries you hear nothing about muslims rejecting the violence and suppression against the Uyghurs.


Edit: its funny to see that the only countries who condemned china 's behaviour are Japan and the White/Western countries.
In July 2019, 22 countries issued a joint letter to the 41st session of the United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC), condemning China's mass detention of Uyghurs and other minorities.


 
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neat

New Member
Thats the hypocrisy behind these protests.
Not only in Pakistan, but also in other countries you hear nothing about muslims rejecting the violence and suppression against the Uyghurs.


Edit: its funny to see that the only countries who condemned china 's behaviour are Japan and the White/Western countries.
In July 2019, 22 countries issued a joint letter to the 41st session of the United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC), condemning China's mass detention of Uyghurs and other minorities.


with due respect, lots of grave issues concerning the muslim world, especially Kashmir, Palestine and Rohingya are completely ignored by the countries you have mentioned.

Read the suffering in Kashmir and you'd be convinced too


So hypocrisy goes both ways.
 
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