Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
I am yet to see a credible news on the type 091 lease. But IF true here are my speculations. I think its just a lease and return deal. The lease of the nuclear submarine may be for training and expertise building. Otherwise Type 091 have not deterrent value. It reportedly never set a deterrent sail for China even. Plus it is said to have lousy radiation protection system.
I was thinking more in regards to the frigates rather than the sub struggle to see how china would benefit from its nuke sub in Pakistan service (call me skeptical)
 

vivtho

New Member
There's more to it than just pride, internal politics will play a big part. Pakistan also isn't the only country which introduces a new military capability in response to a neighbour/rival.
If used well submarines are also a way to asymmetrically counter a larger navy. Most of India's oil imports are well within reach of virtually every major combatant of the PN.

I still do feel that a SSN will not be the best way to go. The PN can get a lot more bang for the buck by purchased 2-4 SSKs for the cost of a single SSN without giving away much capability.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
I still do feel that a SSN will not be the best way to go. The PN can get a lot more bang for the buck by purchased 2-4 SSKs for the cost of a single SSN without giving away much capability.
Agreed. Instead of getting into the SSN game, which wiil cost a bomb and will drain resources, Pakistan is better off getting more SSKs for the PN. But then again, poltics will play a big part. India will eventually have SSNs and the Pakistani government will have to keep pace for prestige and internal reasons.

On a different topic, I'm puzzled as to why the PN has not attempted to go for a longer range SAM like ESSM or ASTER 15 to supplement the short range systems currently in service. I'm no expert on the PN but surely there is a requirement to intoduce more capable SAMs into service.
 

surpreme

Member
I was thinking more in regards to the frigates rather than the sub struggle to see how china would benefit from its nuke sub in Pakistan service (call me skeptical)
Need more frigates for there coast line. If PN decided to upgrade it has to look at its immediately need first. And then get the fund to obtain modern vessels.
 

Micky_Mouse

New Member
Need more frigates for there coast line. If PN decided to upgrade it has to look at its immediately need first. And then get the fund to obtain modern vessels.
Buying a ship is one thing, keeping her in active condition is another thing altogether. PN needs to do a sanity check on its capacity before purchasing platforms. There is no point in trying to compete with IN, cause their economy cannot.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Has the PN shown any interest in the Houbei class? they would make great coastal protection boats.
 

mysterious

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #848
China Building Fast Attack Craft for Pakistan

BEIJING: Launching a fast attack craft being built by China, Pakistan's navy chief Admiral Noman Bashir today said the induction of the vessel equipped with advanced weaponry and sensors will supplement his country's combat potential.

"The environment around us warrants Pakistan navy to be prepared to counter the forces challenging our sovereignty as well as regional peace and security," he said at the launch of the missile-armed vessel at Xingang shipyard at Tianjin in China.

The missile craft construction project represents a "quantum leap, not only in defence production in the maritime sector of Pakistan, but also addresses a long-standing operational requirement of the Pakistan Navy," an official statement said.

The vessel will be the first of the Azmat class fast attack craft, which is scheduled to be delivered to the Pakistan navy by April next year.

Admiral Bashir expressed confidence that the induction of the fast attack craft will supplement Pakistan's combat potential and give its navy an opportunity to "distinctly uphold its forward presence in areas of interest, contributing to balance the power equation in the region."

Pakistan is deeply committed to achieving the "shared objectives of attaining peace, stability and prosperity in the region," he said.

"The Pakistan-China relationship is unique and does not draw any parallel in the world. This relationship over the years has matured in all fields, particularly in defence," he said, adding the current geo-political situation demands further strengthening of Sino-Pak ties.

Bashir said he was confident that the construction of the second fast attack craft in Pakistan will be accomplished successfully with full cooperation from China.

The fast attack craft is equipped with advanced weaponry and sensors, including the C802A surface-to-surface missile, and has stealth features.

China building fast attack craft for Pakistan - The Economic Times

Seems like a good bargain with ToT since the second vessel will be built in Pakistan - which according to videos on youtube appears to have already begun. Wondering which boats these actually are... Local news media been reporting that max speed will be 30 knots.
 

mysterious

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #849
J-10 fighter planes, 6 sub-marines for Pakistan as Sino-Pak talks underway

Islamabad: Putting aside international pressure, China has assured Pakistan to continue work on two nuclear power plants of Chashma 3 and Chashma 4.

In addition, talks are underway between the two states over delivery of latest J-10 fighter plane and six submarines to Pakistan.

Pakistan officials viewed that at present Sino-Pak ties were at their best promoting strategic cooperation between the two.

China had announced the plan to set up two new nuclear power plants in Pakistan two years back in April 2010.

For last many years, joint military exercises of Pakistan and Chinese armies are being held regularly. A trend of extensive cooperation in defence production has also been witnessed given international and regional scenario.

Officials stated presently China is collaborating with Pakistan on JF-17 Thunder fighter plane, K-8 Karakuram planes, Airborne Warning and Control System and missile.

J-10 fighter planes, 6 marines for Pakistan as Cino-Pak talks underway | The News Tribe


Kind of a necessity to repeat my post here, but as I stated earlier, I was under the impression that THREE German U-214 boats had been selected by PN; but now SIX of Chinese origin sounds like a curve-ball.. Does this mean the U-214 deal fell through or is PN planning a 12-boat strength taking in to account the serviceability of the Agosta-90B subs & retirement of the Agosta-70s..?
 

mysterious

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #850
Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan is renewing efforts to modernize its submarine arm with eight submarines from China as well as a search for surplus European submarines.

Navy and Defence Ministry officials revealed the plans to the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence on Tuesday, with Economic Affairs Secretary Muhammad Saleem Sethi leaving for China to pursue the deal on Wednesday.

Analysts believe that since the National Security Committee has agreed to the deal in principle, it is likely to go ahead.

The officials also requested US $294 million to upgrade ATR-72 maritime patrol aircraft. Two un-upgraded aircraft are in service, and officials hope to acquire more.

Pakistan operates five French submarines.

Its two Agosta-70s were acquired in 1979 and 1980, respectively, and despite upgrades they are widely acknowledged by analysts to be well past their prime and in need of replacement. Three air-independent propulsion (AIP)-equipped Agosta-90Bs, which are a development of the Agosta-70s, were commissioned from 1999 onward.

The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.

Tuesday's proceedings created some confusion, however, with officials telling the committee that surplus submarines had been pursued from France, Germany, and the UK, but later acknowledging France had refused Pakistan's approaches with concerns over transfer of technology as one example.

Brian Cloughley, previous Australian defense attache to Islamabad, has said France has simply abandoned the Pakistani defense market to focus on the far more lucrative Indian one.

The mention of the UK was also surprising, considering the UK has not built or operated conventional submarines since the early 1990s, and sold its four Upholder-class subs to Canada where they now serve as the Victoria class.

Cloughley believes the Germans may not be willing or able to supply any surplus submarines either as they do not seem to have any, or at least any that Pakistan would want.

German firms offer new Type-214, Type-209/1400 mod, and Type-210 mod submarines for export.

However, Cloughley said there may be other possibilities.

Germany partnered with Turkey in 2011 to offer Indonesia a lease/new-build deal for Type-209 submarines. Indonesia, however, selected the South Korean improved Chang Bogo, a development of the Type-209/1400.

Turkish industry officials have told Defense News they are ready to offer Pakistan Type-209s if asked.

Turkey, one of Pakistan's closest allies and strongest defense industry partners, shelved its plans to upgrade its six Type-209/1200 Atilay class subs with AIP systems in favor of acquiring the Type-214.

However, Pakistani defense industry officials have said Islamabad would prefer a newer design.

It is uncertain if present circumstances have forced a rethink. "It's all supposition, and I'm afraid there doesn't seem to be an answer," Cloughley said.

Pakistan almost signed a deal for three Type-214 subs in 2008, raises hopes of Pakistan-Turkish submarine cooperation.

However, analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the deal floundered on the issue of financing after the then-Pakistan People's Party-led government signed an IMF loan agreement that derailed the sub acquisition plans.

He said the Type-214 deal was the centerpiece of the naval aspect of the AFDP, and that the first submarine would have been delivered in 2015. The naval aspect of the AFDP especially is in total disarray, he said.

It is unknown if the Type-214 was shelved until finances become available (some industry officials believe this was at least the intention at the time the deal collapsed), but attention subsequently switched to acquiring six AIP-equipped submarines from China.

Due to the need to decommission the Agosta-70s, Khan believes any refurbished submarines will be required to be "sailing under a Pakistani flag within 12 months."

Acquiring Turkish Type-209s remains possible, and despite Pakistan's predicament, Khan says "Under the present circumstances I don't see any collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey since Pakistan will only be locally producing Chinese submarines."

Whether the Chinese submarines are the S-20 export derivative of the Type-039A/Type-041 Yuan-class submarine, or a bespoke design, is unclear. But the Yuan has also been mentioned, and according to government officials the deal was supposed to be secured by the end of 2014.

If the deal transpires, Khan said it will be the largest ever Sino-Pakistani deal. He believes the submarines will each cost $ 250 million to $325 million.

Neither the Ministry of Defence nor the Navy would shed further light when asked. No answers were forthcoming to requests regarding the timeframe of the deal, whether the two Agosta-70s will finally be retired now the number of planned Chinese submarines has increased to eight, clarification on acquiring surplus Western submarines, or the status of the Type-214 acquisition efforts.

Should the Chinese deal go through, it will be a considerable relief, and be especially significant for the nuclear deterrent.

Pakistan inaugurated its Naval Strategic Force Command in 2012 in response to India's rapid nuclearization.

A potential force of 8 AIP-equipped Chinese subs and the three Agosta-90Bs "is a quantum leap in existing capabilities," said Mansoor Ahmed of Quaid-e-Azam University's Department of Defence and Strategic Studies.

Though acknowledging nuclear-powered attack boats are far more capable, he believes "An AIP [diesel-electric submarine] offers Pak the best bang for the buck. But it has to be supplemented with a commensurate investment in [anti-submarine warfare] capabilities to neutralize developments on the Indian side."

He said this will lay the groundwork for having a permanent sea-based deterrent equipped with plutonium-based warheads fitted to cruise missiles, "which is expected to be the next major milestone in Pakistan's development of a triad."

Ahmed acknowledges this "would pose fresh challenges for ensuring effective and secure communications at all times with the submarines for both India and Pak in addition to having a mated-arsenal at sea that would require pre-delegation of launch authority at some level for both countries.

"This would be an altogether new challenge that would have to be addressed for an effective sea-based deterrent."

Nevertheless, AIP-equipped conventional submarines "provide reliable second strike platforms, [and] an assured capability resides with [nuclear-powered attack and nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines], which are technically very complex and challenging to construct and operate compared to SSKs, and also very capital intensive."

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Well, it looks like the U-214 deal has been dead for quite some time now and the Pakistan Navy will be getting 8 submarines, probably the Yuan Class. What is not clear, as the article states is, if the subs will be the export version S-20 or the same Yuan Class that that PLAAN operates.

Also, there are plenty of rumors flying around regarding Pakistan testing nuclear sub propulsion systems. More on this when I find out more.

These are definitely interesting times for the Pakistan Navy.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
We need submarines that could be deployed with nuclear tipped cruise missiles without having to suffer any international-political pressure. Arming of any western submarine would have invited possible denial of logistical support from the supplier state.

But that doesn't mean that Pakistan actually intended to arm U-214 with nuclear cruise missiles, & may in fact have had interest in acquiring Chinese submarines (along with U-214) for the purpose.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
But that doesn't mean that Pakistan actually intended to arm U-214 with nuclear cruise missiles, & may in fact have had interest in acquiring Chinese submarines (along with U-214) for the purpose.
Given that the Pakistani army is the dominant service and has sole control of the country's nuclear assets; I doubt if it will agree to Pakistani submarines being armed with nuclear tip cruise missiles. It has been reported that the new submarines will be armed with Barbur missiles.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The induction ceremony of Pakistan Navy’s first modern Long Range Maritime Patrol twin engine jet aircraft was held on 2 September 2021 at PNS Mehran, Karachi.

Two more aircraft of the series have also been contracted by Pakistan Navy. These aircraft will be equipped with latest weapons and sensors to undertake Maritime Air Operations. It is not clear yet what kind of "latest weapons and sensors" this variant of the Embraer E190 / Lineage 1000 will be equipped with.

It is actually remarkable that Airbus or Comac hasn't come yet with an operational MPA-version of the A320-family and C919.

 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The induction ceremony of Pakistan Navy’s first modern Long Range Maritime Patrol twin engine jet aircraft was held on 2 September 2021 at PNS Mehran, Karachi.

Two more aircraft of the series have also been contracted by Pakistan Navy. These aircraft will be equipped with latest weapons and sensors to undertake Maritime Air Operations. It is not clear yet what kind of "latest weapons and sensors" this variant of the Embraer E190 / Lineage 1000 will be equipped with.

It is actually remarkable that Airbus or Comac hasn't come yet with an operational MPA-version of the A320-family and C919.

Airbus Defence is run by committee and therein lies the problem when the committee is controlled by Germany, France, etc. That's most likely why the much vaunted Airbus turbofan MPA has never got past the drawing board stage. They could've stolen the march on the P-8A in the export market with the A319MPA but never did and now you have nations like UK, Norway and Germany buying the P-8A. NZ may have thought about it, especially if the UK had bought such a platform.

Comac C919; it's definitely a possibility. The PLANAF will be looking at the P-8A and undoubtedly will have had really good intel on the Sea Sultan. I wouldn't be surprised if a MPA variant isn't already in the works.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Got the impresion the ATR 72 based Sea Eagles seems replacing Atlantique while as the article put this E190 based Sea Sultan replacing E3C, but seems shown capabilities for deep into arabian sea line to put deterence for India Submarine patrol.

India building nuclear Sub, which potentialy with longer range can create wider range blockade. Pakistan huge investment with this kind of longer range MPA/ASW assets, seems shown their effort at least to leverage the balance.

Interesting to see how all this can manage wider operational range in sea line, against Indian Carrier Group.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Airbus Defence is run by committee and therein lies the problem when the committee is controlled by Germany, France, etc. That's most likely why the much vaunted Airbus turbofan MPA has never got past the drawing board stage. They could've stolen the march on the P-8A in the export market with the A319MPA but never did and now you have nations like UK, Norway and Germany buying the P-8A. NZ may have thought about it, especially if the UK had bought such a platform.

Comac C919; it's definitely a possibility. The PLANAF will be looking at the P-8A and undoubtedly will have had really good intel on the Sea Sultan. I wouldn't be surprised if a MPA variant isn't already in the works.
The problem with the A319 MPA was the lack of an initial customer. The French wanted to upgrade their Atlantiques, for cost reasons. The Spanish had a plan to upgrade their P-3s, also relatively cheaply (successfully done by Airbus Spain, long enough ago that they're now looking at how to replace them). The UK (which, BTW, was closely tied in to Airbus back then, though BAE selling its 20% stake in 2006, at the bottom of the market, weakened that - but Airbus UK's still a big business) had committed to the all-singing, all-dancing 'upgraded' (in effect a new aircraft) Nimrod MRA4 from BAE, which was expected to be ready before an A319 or A320 MPA could be (doh! again).

That really only left Germany, & Germany didn't want to develop a new MPA on its own.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Pakistan commissioned on Monday 8 November 2021 the Tughril 261, the first of four Type 054A/P frigates during a ceremony at the Hudong Zhonghua Shipbuilding yard in Shanghai, China.

Pakistan became the ship design’s first foreign customer under a 2017 deal for two Type 054A/P frigates, with two more ordered in 2018, with deliveries to begin in 2021. They are the most powerful Chinese warships exported to date. The 134 meter long Type 054A/P is a Pakistan-specific variant equipped with the SR2410C long-range and Type 517/SUR17B air-surveillance radars and it will feature a 32-cell vertical launch system that can be armed with an array of anti-aircraft missiles, like the HQ-16 series, which seems to be based on the combination of Buk-M1 and Buk-2M surface-to-air missile systems.

Pakistan’s four F-22P Zulfiquar (Type 053H3-derivative) frigates are incapable of dealing with modern missile threats, but might receive upgrades with the fielding of the Type-054A/Ps. The Type-054A/P class frigates are planned to replace the old Type-21 Tariq class frigates.


Edit:
Here some images of the Tughril.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Netherlands-based shipbuilder Koninklijke Schelde - Damen has disclosed further details of the vessels it is building for the Pakistan Navy, which are derived from the company's OPV 2600 design.

These two vessels are a follow-on order to Pakistan's two 2300 ton Yarmook-class patrol vessels which are based on the shipyards' OPV 1900 design.

The 2300 t Yarmook-class has a length of 91 m and the OPV 2600 a length between 98-103 m, according to Damen's own website.
 
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