Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions
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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
From various sources in the defence media there appears to be more than 1 type of JF17. The earlier variant appears to have a slender fusealage at the top of the plane and the latter version appears to be far wider.
There are quotes that at least 12 JF17's have been manufactured and 2 have been handed over to Pakistan for various trials. I think that China may have kept the rest as demonstators for potential buyers such as Iran, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia and (more importantly because of K8) Egypt.
I believe Pakistan was negotiating for F1's from France and Libya. Did Iran receive any Iraqi F1's that it has passed to Pakistan? I was informed by a Greek friend that India and Greece have been doing some joint work on Mirage 2000's (around 1996). He was of the opinion that it would be good to do something with Pakistan but Turkish -Pakistani relationship prevented this thus far (1996). In any case to cut a a long story short he was of the opinion thatthe F1 is the best dogfighter in the world. Has Pakistan purchased any from Libya or France? And if not , why not?
From various sources in the defence media there appears to be more than 1 type of JF17. The earlier variant appears to have a slender fusealage at the top of the plane and the latter version appears to be far wider.
There are quotes that at least 12 JF17's have been manufactured and 2 have been handed over to Pakistan for various trials. I think that China may have kept the rest as demonstators for potential buyers such as Iran, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia and (more importantly because of K8) Egypt.
I believe Pakistan was negotiating for F1's from France and Libya. Did Iran receive any Iraqi F1's that it has passed to Pakistan? I was informed by a Greek friend that India and Greece have been doing some joint work on Mirage 2000's (around 1996). He was of the opinion that it would be good to do something with Pakistan but Turkish -Pakistani relationship prevented this thus far (1996). In any case to cut a a long story short he was of the opinion thatthe F1 is the best dogfighter in the world. Has Pakistan purchased any from Libya or France? And if not , why not?
fieldmarshal
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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
I dont know buddy where u got ur info but i dont think PAF is collecting "museum pieces". F-1 would have been good in the 80s but now its outdated and over the hill+ its primarily a ground attack ac, so it being the best dog fighter is being some wt absurd, considering its compatition eg mig-21, f-16, f-15, su-27, su-30 etc, these ac would make circles around the f-1.
The talk of PAK-isreal collabaration in any sector let alone in defence is premature to say the least, the process has just started n we have already started to count the chicken (if u know wt i mean).
During the iran iraq war iran was buying spares from isreal for its us made military hard ware covertly, now iran knew fully well where it got its spare n weapons from but the mullahs did not object even though they are the self proclamed biggest enemy of isreal. so y should we be more loyal to the king than the king him self
Hussain said:
I dont know buddy where u got ur info but i dont think PAF is collecting "museum pieces". F-1 would have been good in the 80s but now its outdated and over the hill+ its primarily a ground attack ac, so it being the best dog fighter is being some wt absurd, considering its compatition eg mig-21, f-16, f-15, su-27, su-30 etc, these ac would make circles around the f-1.
The talk of PAK-isreal collabaration in any sector let alone in defence is premature to say the least, the process has just started n we have already started to count the chicken (if u know wt i mean).
During the iran iraq war iran was buying spares from isreal for its us made military hard ware covertly, now iran knew fully well where it got its spare n weapons from but the mullahs did not object even though they are the self proclamed biggest enemy of isreal. so y should we be more loyal to the king than the king him self
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
The F1 performed well in the first Gulf war having scored kills against F16's and F15's. Over the Aegean a Greek F1 took out an F16. I think the F1 is better than the Mirage 3 and 5 and they still are potent warplanes.
In Pakistani Defence/ it was reported that Pakistan was intersted in F1's that Libya has.
The F1 performed well in the first Gulf war having scored kills against F16's and F15's. Over the Aegean a Greek F1 took out an F16. I think the F1 is better than the Mirage 3 and 5 and they still are potent warplanes.
In Pakistani Defence/ it was reported that Pakistan was intersted in F1's that Libya has.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
In any case it is the radar and electronic systems that make a good interceptor. In the past Tornado's have taken on F15's and beat them with BVR's. If Pakistan can purchase cheap F1's and spend a little money on them they'll be more potent than F16 (A), Mig 29's (Indian) and Mig21 bis.
In any case it is the radar and electronic systems that make a good interceptor. In the past Tornado's have taken on F15's and beat them with BVR's. If Pakistan can purchase cheap F1's and spend a little money on them they'll be more potent than F16 (A), Mig 29's (Indian) and Mig21 bis.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
As far as bomber AC is concerned, pakistan will probably use JF-17 in bomber role.
Do u guys really think that Jf-17 will work as good as other specialized bomber AC present today. if not then what bomber AC pak should opt for? Because A-5 are too old and time is near when they will only be in the paf mesuem.
As far as bomber AC is concerned, pakistan will probably use JF-17 in bomber role.
Do u guys really think that Jf-17 will work as good as other specialized bomber AC present today. if not then what bomber AC pak should opt for? Because A-5 are too old and time is near when they will only be in the paf mesuem.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
SU27 due its range and payload. Second hand SU24 would be an excellent option. They performed better than all the other aircraft over Chechenya.. Good endurance, air tio air refuelling, terrain avoidance radar, swing wing, twin engines and good payload. Easily available from Ukraine and Belo Russia
SU27 due its range and payload. Second hand SU24 would be an excellent option. They performed better than all the other aircraft over Chechenya.. Good endurance, air tio air refuelling, terrain avoidance radar, swing wing, twin engines and good payload. Easily available from Ukraine and Belo Russia
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
My man.....It was Greek Mirage2000-5 that took out Turkish F-16 not the F-1 & 2ndly that F-16 was not armed. It was on regular training sorty. The shot down was never counted as combat kill, Its usualy refered to as "The Incident". If Turkish F-16 was armed it would have gone into fight & inflict heavy damage on Helenic Mirage2000-5 but there appear to be no shots fired or missile fired towards it. If it was F-1 it would have blown it away in pieces.
Mirage-3 is a good fighter in the air, Mirage-5 is a maritime strike AC. Both are renouned ACs of their time & even today some AirForces maintain the at the best (e.g: PAF)....Mirage F-1s main purpose was ground attack & Bombing. They were France's Nuclear Capable AirCrafts untill Mirage2000D was rolled out.
Refer your sources & read articals on the net.
I do agree with u on certain level...Pakistan should buy those Mirage2000 & do some Mirage2000D modifications & hand them over to Bomber Sqdn. They should be good replacement for A-5s. They shouldnt be bad for maritime strike role either.
Hussain said:
My man.....It was Greek Mirage2000-5 that took out Turkish F-16 not the F-1 & 2ndly that F-16 was not armed. It was on regular training sorty. The shot down was never counted as combat kill, Its usualy refered to as "The Incident". If Turkish F-16 was armed it would have gone into fight & inflict heavy damage on Helenic Mirage2000-5 but there appear to be no shots fired or missile fired towards it. If it was F-1 it would have blown it away in pieces.
Mirage-3 is a good fighter in the air, Mirage-5 is a maritime strike AC. Both are renouned ACs of their time & even today some AirForces maintain the at the best (e.g: PAF)....Mirage F-1s main purpose was ground attack & Bombing. They were France's Nuclear Capable AirCrafts untill Mirage2000D was rolled out.
Refer your sources & read articals on the net.
I would opt the specially modified Mirage 2005 for the bomber aircraft role.. can't see any other better option. maybe the Qatar mirage 2000s would come in handy.
I do agree with u on certain level...Pakistan should buy those Mirage2000 & do some Mirage2000D modifications & hand them over to Bomber Sqdn. They should be good replacement for A-5s. They shouldnt be bad for maritime strike role either.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
The Mirage F1 could literally fly rings around the Mirage III, with better maneuverability, 30% shorter takeoff run, and 25% slower approach speed. The F1 had 43% more internal fuel capacity and 2.5 tonnes (5,510 pounds) greater maximum takeoff weight.
In the air to air role the Mirage F1 is far superior to Mirage 3 and 5.
The Cyrano IV-0 variant initially fitted to the F1C was solely an air combat radar, with a single-target engagement capability, but it was successively upgraded to the Cyrano IV-1, with moving target indicator (MTI) capability to provide "look down" capability for spotting aircraft flying low in ground clutter; then the Cyrano IV-2, with limited air-to-ground capability; and finally the multirole Cyrano IVM with track-while-scan capabilities and improved ground attack capabilities.
The above was done 20 yrs ago. The Grifo 7 on the mirage 3's can only engage two targets and that is late 90's technology. The Mirage F1 is a very capable fying machine, newer than a lot of Mirage 3's and therfore it can be a very valuable piece of hardware. Speaking of 2nd hand fighters ther are alot of SU24's in Ukraine, wouldn't they be better for Pakistani needs as a bomber?
The Mirage F1 could literally fly rings around the Mirage III, with better maneuverability, 30% shorter takeoff run, and 25% slower approach speed. The F1 had 43% more internal fuel capacity and 2.5 tonnes (5,510 pounds) greater maximum takeoff weight.
In the air to air role the Mirage F1 is far superior to Mirage 3 and 5.
The Cyrano IV-0 variant initially fitted to the F1C was solely an air combat radar, with a single-target engagement capability, but it was successively upgraded to the Cyrano IV-1, with moving target indicator (MTI) capability to provide "look down" capability for spotting aircraft flying low in ground clutter; then the Cyrano IV-2, with limited air-to-ground capability; and finally the multirole Cyrano IVM with track-while-scan capabilities and improved ground attack capabilities.
The above was done 20 yrs ago. The Grifo 7 on the mirage 3's can only engage two targets and that is late 90's technology. The Mirage F1 is a very capable fying machine, newer than a lot of Mirage 3's and therfore it can be a very valuable piece of hardware. Speaking of 2nd hand fighters ther are alot of SU24's in Ukraine, wouldn't they be better for Pakistani needs as a bomber?
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
One thing is for sure with Pakistan everything is F16. The nation prides itself on its airforce. Even as a symbolic value wouldn't it be appropriate to have at least 60 Rafales for potency, no matter what the financial cost? Only emerging East European states with no enemies and tired old Miig 21's are willing to buy F16's as front line planes. The American national guard uses better F16's then Pakistan's fleet. In the 80's it was prestigious to have F16's and now its just run of the mill. That's why the US is donating 2 more to us.
One thing is for sure with Pakistan everything is F16. The nation prides itself on its airforce. Even as a symbolic value wouldn't it be appropriate to have at least 60 Rafales for potency, no matter what the financial cost? Only emerging East European states with no enemies and tired old Miig 21's are willing to buy F16's as front line planes. The American national guard uses better F16's then Pakistan's fleet. In the 80's it was prestigious to have F16's and now its just run of the mill. That's why the US is donating 2 more to us.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
The PAF shouldn't go for Mirage 2000-5s unless they're coming relatively cheap, because spending that kind of money on a fighter which is in reality no better than the F-16C/D Block-32 (which in its used form come extremely cheap or free). However from what I hear, the Qataris are going to give the countries who buys those Mirage 2000-5s full infastructure, the stuff the Qataris have I mean, and the price supposedly includes all of it. PAF wouldn't get much out of paying near a billion USD for 12 planes, the would need to expand the infastructure and get atleast 20 more, however unless they're used, 20 new models would cost a lot! Why spend say 2.5bn USD on 32 planes (12 used), when that money could easily be allocated for something better?
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
So far the choice of most guys is mirage in bomber role in paf.
Do you guys really see Jf-17 in bomber role in paf soon. If yes, then what features you want to be installed in Jf-17 as an effective and modern bomber AC.
If not what are the problems.
So far the choice of most guys is mirage in bomber role in paf.
Do you guys really see Jf-17 in bomber role in paf soon. If yes, then what features you want to be installed in Jf-17 as an effective and modern bomber AC.
If not what are the problems.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
I personally can see it as being a light bomber. PAF see's its main purpose as being a backup aircraft to support the other top line fighters we are going to get. e.g F-16 and some other. so masically its in the middle end of our airforce. And plus its payload is not that heavy as to the Mirage 2000 which is why i personally think that the mirage would be more suited to the bomber role. However this is just my view.
pingpong said:
I personally can see it as being a light bomber. PAF see's its main purpose as being a backup aircraft to support the other top line fighters we are going to get. e.g F-16 and some other. so masically its in the middle end of our airforce. And plus its payload is not that heavy as to the Mirage 2000 which is why i personally think that the mirage would be more suited to the bomber role. However this is just my view.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
So far the choice of most guys is mirage in bomber role in paf.
Do you guys really see Jf-17 in bomber role in paf soon. If yes, then what features you want to be installed in Jf-17 as an effective and modern bomber AC.
If not what are the problems.
Problems:
Payload is still small as in comparison to SU27, Mirage 2000 and SU24 Fencer. Can't use the aircraft as a B-57 type of bomber for say against large concentrations of tanks and artillery, infanry units, arms depots etc. Use the same ground weapons delivery sytems on the JF17 as the Rose upgrade Mirage 3 and 5's for precision strikes against high value targets as Pakistan manufactures weapons around Sagem /Thales systems.
So far the choice of most guys is mirage in bomber role in paf.
Do you guys really see Jf-17 in bomber role in paf soon. If yes, then what features you want to be installed in Jf-17 as an effective and modern bomber AC.
If not what are the problems.
Problems:
Payload is still small as in comparison to SU27, Mirage 2000 and SU24 Fencer. Can't use the aircraft as a B-57 type of bomber for say against large concentrations of tanks and artillery, infanry units, arms depots etc. Use the same ground weapons delivery sytems on the JF17 as the Rose upgrade Mirage 3 and 5's for precision strikes against high value targets as Pakistan manufactures weapons around Sagem /Thales systems.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
Kashif read this artical. Every where I read it says BVR Bomb.
http://in.news.yahoo.com/031218/139/2ag1d.html
http://www.dawn.com/2003/12/18/top6.htm
H-2 & H-4 are the ones u were calling HAFR-1 & HAFR-2.
According to the articals it is a bomb. Now as u said Bombs are free fall hence can not be BVR, so it must be Air to Ground missile.
Now according to reports H-4 is Pakistani derivative of South Africa's V4 R-Darter, T-Darter. But the T-Darter is an Air to Air Missile.
See in the artical;
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/reference/Air-to-Air_Missiles/South%20Africa.htm
Now tell me, who is more confusing? & who is confusing who
.
Some one ought to do some digging here. I come to know NESCOM is under development of Air 2 Ground Missile with the range of 150Km to 160Km n ppl say that South Africa is helping NESCOM with the project. May be the reports on new A2G Missile & H-4 got mixed up by the journalists...lols.
I'll be back with this after some proper diggings.
kashifshahzad said:
Kashif read this artical. Every where I read it says BVR Bomb.
http://in.news.yahoo.com/031218/139/2ag1d.html
http://www.dawn.com/2003/12/18/top6.htm
H-2 & H-4 are the ones u were calling HAFR-1 & HAFR-2.
According to the articals it is a bomb. Now as u said Bombs are free fall hence can not be BVR, so it must be Air to Ground missile.
Now according to reports H-4 is Pakistani derivative of South Africa's V4 R-Darter, T-Darter. But the T-Darter is an Air to Air Missile.
See in the artical;
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/reference/Air-to-Air_Missiles/South%20Africa.htm
Now tell me, who is more confusing? & who is confusing who
.Some one ought to do some digging here. I come to know NESCOM is under development of Air 2 Ground Missile with the range of 150Km to 160Km n ppl say that South Africa is helping NESCOM with the project. May be the reports on new A2G Missile & H-4 got mixed up by the journalists...lols.
I'll be back with this after some proper diggings.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
Ok this link is suppose to say that H-4 is BVRAAM with 120Km range. But the link is not working.
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/april-2003/22/main/top10.asp
I have taken it from another Forum, so i cant give the link but Here is the artical posted on that forum;
Most sites on net call it Bomb but since it is BVR it probably is a A2G Missile & if it is, than its not derivative of T-Darter. If it is A2A Missile than what happened to the A2G BVR Missile PAF Claims to have ???
Ok this link is suppose to say that H-4 is BVRAAM with 120Km range. But the link is not working.
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/april-2003/22/main/top10.asp
I have taken it from another Forum, so i cant give the link but Here is the artical posted on that forum;
Most sites on net call it Bomb but since it is BVR it probably is a A2G Missile & if it is, than its not derivative of T-Darter. If it is A2A Missile than what happened to the A2G BVR Missile PAF Claims to have ???