compared to who? Outside of US,Russia,UK,France, and a few others most air forces are flying antiques...
China is good where they stand. And their currently developing their J-20 as well
Official Chengdu J-20 Discussion Thread
compared to who? Outside of US,Russia,UK,France, and a few others most air forces are flying antiques...
China is good where they stand. And their currently developing their J-20 as well
On the first picture and third picture, you can notice the outline of the side inlet bay. Not quite as long as the ventral ones but pretty close.
On the second picture, compare the width of the ventral bays to the side bays, they also seem quite similar.
On the third picture, it is clear that the length of the side bay is shortened to make some space for the main landing gear but the technician standing near the bay gives a good idea of the length of the bay, seems to me you could squeeze an AMRAMM in there.
I wonder if Chinese have tried to put something like their AMRAAM in all bays compared to the US F22 that puts the Sidewinder in the side pods and AMRAMMs in the ventral bay only. It's just a thought.
On the second picture, compare the width of the ventral bays to the side bays, they also seem quite similar.
On the third picture, it is clear that the length of the side bay is shortened to make some space for the main landing gear but the technician standing near the bay gives a good idea of the length of the bay, seems to me you could squeeze an AMRAMM in there.
I wonder if Chinese have tried to put something like their AMRAAM in all bays compared to the US F22 that puts the Sidewinder in the side pods and AMRAMMs in the ventral bay only. It's just a thought.
Twinblade
Member
Yeah, it was really strange. For one, those airframes were rumoured to have used up their 4000 hour airframe life, which could have been extended way longer. The reasons floating around the forums were that it was better to buy new fighters than completely overhauling the airframes, new engines and new avionics without Russian support. If I were to take a guess, some of the older ones will be replaced by J-11B for now while the newer ones will be replaced by J-20 (not on a one on one basis). The latest order for AL-31 engines might be to keep the Su-27 and Su-30 fleet in shape till the replacement arrives.
They really abused those early airframes and I'm not sure if the maintenance was that great either, so I would not be surprised if a small number are getting scrapped. Of course, that does not mean Flankers are diminishing in importance to PLAAF.
i'd probably tend to agree as ulitmately it comes down to having to zero the frame if a rebuild is wanted. and it may have been cheaper for the chinese to just write them off rather than zero them
Last edited:
Air Force Brat
Member
I beg to differ, the su-27 remains a most capable and adaptable airframe in its many variations, and quite frankly is one of the top 10 air superiority aircraft in the world, possibly top five if we leave out the potential fifth gens. Air power is happening today, what tommorow brings none of use know. The Pak-Fa is still an Su-27, and belies the overall soundness of its predecessor.
the concerned
Active Member
I did say in 10yrs maybe 5 if u think about it come 2015 india would have near on 270 su-30's plus rafales and upgraded mirage 2000's and about to introduce the pak-fa .If i was a su-27 pilot i wouldn't feel too confident. plus think of all the other countries in the area which would have aicraft capable of dealing with Su's by 2015 let alone 2020.and numbers the aircraft that is going to have to replace the Su is going to have to be in the region of 250-300 aircraft so developing ur own is better.I also think about the same time Pakistan would also be in the market for an F-16 replacement and under current political climates i can't see that being the jsf
Haavarla
Active Member
A somewhat strange observation..
So, as we see Russia and VVS re-armaments going forward.
Take the Su-35S, which is an upgraded Su-27, it is indeed in the VVS long term plan. I'll say they have planned ahead some 15-20 year.
Same goes for India and the soon to be 'Super MKI' or any other AF.
They plann ahead for more than just 5-10 years.
Also those Su-34 are pretty much an Su-27 inspired jet.
Are these too not in the long term planning?
Also, platforms like the Flanker have an exellent upgrade path, you can stuff any systems from any manufactor and tailor it to meet your requirements.
It is more about systems, and how deep the upgrade package are.
the concerned
Active Member
I stand corrected but none of the upgrades that u just mentioned would satisfy china and i don't know how much more capable the j-11b is but again even if they were looking to go down that route that would only make them equal to its neighbours which is not what u want to do if you are trying to become the dominant force in the region
Haavarla
Active Member
We do not know at this point how eager Russia are in exporting say Mig-35 or Su-35S to China.
There exist no real sources that Russia are willing to export anything more advance then the Su-30MK2 vanila..
There are some uncomfirmed reports about China is not Interesting import Su-35S too, but i find them very unlikely as well.
You see no BARS radar going to China.
And only Legasy jet engines like AL-31FN, AL-31F.
There exist no real sources that Russia are willing to export anything more advance then the Su-30MK2 vanila..
There are some uncomfirmed reports about China is not Interesting import Su-35S too, but i find them very unlikely as well.
You see no BARS radar going to China.
And only Legasy jet engines like AL-31FN, AL-31F.
I don't think China would want to buy the Mig-35 or the SU-35 for now because they don't really dish up money, and those 2 jets are pricey. everything in their air force is under 35 million I believe per Jet(I read rumors that J-10B will be around 35 million)
and there are even more rumors on the internet that the J-20 will be under 45 million...
so ya I doubt that China would buy them.
and besides that the most advanced jet Russia is exporting is the soon to be SU-30MKI SS I believe
Or that the plans they had for a new gen aircraft came to naught because of the money needed to develop it, so it's lets mod a su-27 with India or loose some of their export market
Air Force Brat
Member
Jack don't misunderestimate the T-50 lad, shes all that and a bag of chips, to be honest, shes the only one of the three fifth gens currently in production that is likely to give the Raptor a run for her money in the up close guns up. I know some of us love our electronic gizmos, but to be honest, you have to get in a position to take the shot, then you pray you have enough under the hood to mach out of there. I said she's a Flanker to give her a complement son, as in shes as cute as her big sister, and smarter and faster. The J-20 does look to be rolling in the development money, and is a very classy bird, not to slight her in any way, I still think shes a little bigger and heavier than she needs to be, on the other hand, shes starting to sound more like a denial of assets interceptor, target tankers and awacs and you shut down some of the competition. One thing seems apparent after the Chinese New Year, the Chengdu daily airshow has slowed down.
Actually China has attempted to purchase Su-35BM components, and there were even some pre-contract talks about the aircraft itself. So they were interested in it. Given that it's currently ahead of anything the Chinese airforce flies this is hardly surprising.
Air Force Brat
Member
I'm fairly certain that Feanor is correct and China had been seeking the upgraded aircraft desired, infering from the very small order, that it was basically a tech buy. Indeed we should all be honest in this process, lots of supposedly inferior US tech is "borrowed, by our friends and neighbors. That is one of the reasons that vigilant folks are genuinely reluctant to export the Raptor and its technology, that and a desire to propogate a market for JSF, which before its current sorry state was seen as an international peach, which would allowed us to make a nice pie, and let everyone share a slice. It should be clear to all involved that our Chinese neighbors are quite capable of designing and producing a highly competant fifth gen fighter aircraft, which bearing design features from many aircraft, has mixed in a few of their own to come up with a winner. They have the desire, expertise and money to see this through and in the aerodynamic arena have surpassed the capabilities of JSF on many fronts. It is highly likely however that JXX will meet many of the obstacles currently being dealt with by the F-35 team, but the airframe itself seems quite sound. We may also infer from this, that as Feanor alluded to the Chinese Flanker and her variations are also quite cabable, just have a look at the J-15. As the F-35 team move forward with a good deal more haste, you should rest assured that part of the rush is JXX and Pak-FA. Hang on folks the train has left the station.:rwb
You speak in the present tense. Are you not aware that probably the biggest reason the aircraft is unable to be exported is that the production line is being shut down?
Why should it be clear that the chinese are capable of producing a highly competant 5th gen fighter? Does china have a history of producing LO aircraft? Does a mix of design features make it a winner?
Ah, you speak very definitively here - you must have access to comparative test data? If not then you'd at least be able to quote the tab data on the JXX and compare it to the definitive data on the F35...
Airframe sound - that'd be based on those test reports you'd have access to wouldn't it? One of the obstacles faced in recent times by the F35 involved the lift fan door. Please indicate where the lift fan door is on the Chinese airframe.
Part of the 'rush' is due to these two airframes? I would say the far greater reasons are to do with the number of delays in the F-35 programme and the need to replace aging legacy airframes. The 'competition' is years behind and the first iteration of 5th gen machines (if they are genuine 5th gen airframes). Remember the US is so far ahead in the LO field that they have scrapped their first operational airframes. The Russians and Chinese haven't fielded their first yet. I'm not saying that at some stage the PAK-FA and J-20 won't be good aircraft, but I think you may be ascribing them with legends they haven't earned yet.
Actually I couldn't disagree more. China has yet to produce an advanced Flanker variant that, in my opinion, could compare with the advanced MKI versions, or the Su-35S. I don't think they can produce anything comparable to the F-35 of the F-22 at this point. They most certainly will in the future, but that future is a good distance off. Their attempt to acquire more Russian Flanker tech is a sign that they are not ready to produce comparable aircraft themselves. Their reproduction of 30 year old Soviet carrier tech is hardly evidence of their technological sophistication. That they are able to do it effectively is a good sign, but their continuing purchase of Russian engines by the hundreds (designed in the late 70s early 80s) is a bad one.
Iirc the process was the opposite. Congress denied any permissions to export, and the production line had to shut down. The reason that the aircraft is not getting exported is because the US government doesn't want it to be.
No, and no. Given that they're still having trouble with 4th generation aircraft it's fairly clear that they can't produce a 5th gen aircraft at this time.
Oh come on. That point is so laughable it hardly needed a response.
He. Hehehe. But seriously, lets not compare the F-35 and J-20. They're not comparable aircraft.
Not to mention that tossing them in the same bag is problematic in and of itself. The PAK-FA is a project that seems to be much further along, and is founded on decades of experience producing advanced 4th gen. aircraft, a process China is only now beginning to master. It's also an international project with high standards presented by the Indian side, in a way keeping the Russian industry honest. The J-20 is a very closed off internal Chinese project, at a time when China has yet to demonstrate the level of technological maturity required to lay the ground-work for a 5th gen. aircraft.
Yes, was very aware of that decision in the past. But as I said in the present tense the biggest issue would be that the line is now closed (13th of Dec the last aircraft rolled off it) - it would take an extremenly large bag of gold quite apart from congressional approval to restart production now.