NZDF General discussion thread

[Xthenaki]

I agree with you on this and believe that this funding and a more cohesive approach in agreeing to major defence projects by the mainstream parties of government and opposition is fundamental in the move forward for our defence force. The heads of our primary forces need also to agree and work together to push for their funding requirements. I do not think that they show enough resolve and demand in trying to obtain what is needed.
They have to work together and sort out the countries best pathway forward stipulating as a body what the nation needs first and the minimal requirement they will accept. They may need to put their jobs on the line.

 

[Xthenaki]

PS : - the above is in reply to Tasmans post above.

 

[SamB]

I should add that the Gulf of Mexico, The sand tars of Canada and Australia will be essential to New Zealands energy and security moving forward and our evolving relationship needs to be signalled yesterday.

 

[Xthenaki]

I agree with you on this and believe that this funding and a more cohesive approach in agreeing to major defence projects by the mainstream parties of government and opposition is fundamental in the move forward for our defence force. The heads of our primary forces need also to agree and work together to push for their funding requirements. I do not think that they show enough resolve and demand in trying to obtain what is needed.
They have to work together and sort out the countries best pathway forward stipulating as a body what the nation needs first and the minimal requirement they will accept. They may need to put their jobs on the line.

 

[Xthenaki]

Apparently M/s Helen Clark took away the Defence force chiefs independent authority and made them accountable to the government of the day and to parliamental direction. A sad day.

 

[spoz]

Pardon? It has always been thus. Civilian control of the armed forces, exercised through the appropriate minister (who is accountable to Parliament) is a cornerstone of Westminster democracy.

 

[Xthenaki]

You are correct and I have not expressed the passage above correctly. My apologies for that.
In April 2001 when the NZ Labour Govt disbanded the air combat wing a major shift was created to form a "niche force". This focused on land based capabilities suited to peacekeeping and regional security. The joint command structure was formed, funding reallocated leaving both air force and navy with reduced firepower. A major change had occurred.
I was definately not supporting anarchy but expecting displeasure to be voiced to gain support for a positive outcome and this is not realistic.

 

[Warhawk]

I wonder if RNZAF would look at soon to be retired RAAF C-27J aircraft . Ideal for Pacific use same engines as C-130J aircraft would be good purchase if pick up 4 to support Hercules.

 

[SamB]

I wonder if RNZAF would look at soon to be retired RAAF C-27J aircraft . Ideal for Pacific use same engines as C-130J aircraft would be good purchase if pick up 4 to support Hercules.

I think there needs to be some talk about how strong a personal surge NZDF can absorb. I don't think it's a supply side issue. Absorbing Australia's retired Spartans doesn't magically make the oil tankers show up. But on the demand side there is a need to move people around the south pacific for war gaming. A capability that was filled by the B757 but is now absent. Any former AirNZ executive would know more about aviation than me. Ideally and as Ngati pointed out my memory is vague on this but he pointed out the CN235 used a common pallet system with NZDF but greater minds than ours would have to make extraordinarily fast decisions for our friends in the beehive.

 

[John Fedup]

I should add that the Gulf of Mexico, The sand tars of Canada and Australia will be essential to New Zealands energy and security moving forward and our evolving relationship needs to be signalled yesterday.

I note your correct nomenclature for the Guif.

 

[SamB]

I note your correct nomenclature for the Guif.

I have very fond memories of water safety at the Birkenhead wharf in Auckland New Zealand as a child. They always referred to The Hauraki Gulf as the Gulf.

 

[Warhawk]

Nats need to be real with defence nothing new since lease commercial jets that arrive 2028. Helicopters program that's takes 8 months and counting with a selective model already chosen. Australia will have 35 of same model what NZ should do why currently Australia will have over supply to future ships arrive lease helicopters until ours arrive.We should got on band wagon when
Australia ordered another 12 in 2023

 

[Warhawk]

I feel current government and opposition will only do window dressing when comes to defence always same complaints economy and population absolute rubbish.
We will never see defence force that resembles 1980s and 1990s in amount equipment the defence force had. Even future commitment is at same level or more likely reduced level.

 

[spoz]

Australia will have 36 MH-60R; the one lost a couple of years ago is being replaced. We currently have 14 platforms capable of operating them. The rule of 3s says that the maximum you can expect to be operationally available is 12. In the future we are planning to have 24 capable platforms (ignoring for a moment the LSHs being built for Army) so far from having spares, we will need more. So don’t look this way for helos for NZ.

 

[SamB]

I feel current government and opposition will only do window dressing when comes to defence always same complaints economy and population absolute rubbish.
We will never see defence force that resembles 1980s and 1990s in amount equipment the defence force had. Even future commitment is at same level or more likely reduced level.

Both Australia and New Zealand are not starting from zero as we did in the 1930's. We are starting from approximately 2. Just because we lost our objectives, moving back to a peace dividend post-Cold War doesn't automatically mean that we have to repair the damage to the budget already done. The primary driver of cost blowouts is delays. IMO we need to shift focus away from the pomp and ceremony towards a more people-centric military.

 

[John Fedup]

Both Australia and New Zealand are not starting from zero as we did in the 1930's. We are starting from approximately 2. Just because we lost our objectives, moving back to a peace dividend post-Cold War doesn't automatically mean that we have to repair the damage to the budget already done. The primary driver of cost blowouts is delays. IMO we need to shift focus away from the pomp and ceremony towards a more people-centric military.

Not sure where Australia is on a scale of 0 to 10 but whatever value it is would be well above NZ (and Canada for that matter).

 

[SamB]

Not sure where Australia is on a scale of 0 to 10 but whatever value it is would be well above NZ (and Canada for that matter).

My scale goes from 1-5. There is a sixth, but I don't think any of us is in a hurry to repeat the failures of The Great British Empire. New Zealand should be moving towards a regional power with higher-end stuff and interoperability, and Australia needs a good mate that can sit in the foxhole with them while all the chaos goes on around.

 

[recce.k1]

ANZAC Day. A day to remember the fallen and a time to reflect. On those that serve today and those that have served over the years, decades and now centuries.

Looking back into our past and the memories that were caught on film what struck me are the common elements, the people and their sense of duty to help humanity in far away places, and the important connections back to home (of places and family) which anchors them.

We see in this "propaganda" film of the thoughts of New Zealander's serving in Bomber Command. Are the aspirations of those that served then any different to those today? I think not, we all want a better place and a better future. Even if that means standing up to those that endanger that way of life.

For those that did return from WW2, their return was both a sense of pride and a time of reflection of those that didn't. For the likes of the 28th Māori Battalion, their families and their tribes welcomed back their men who distinguished themselves and their warrior ethos. Culture and connections grounded their return from the horrors of war that they experienced, with that weariness still etched on their faces in the news reel, probably only erasing over time as they returned mostly to their small villages and towns of peace and tranquility, and a normality far removed from anything they and their forebears ever experienced.

Those men continued to be quietly honored today in small towns and alike, history and tradition continues to be respected by the newer generations that follow.

Like for all ANZAC's that served, and continue to serve, in their towns and cities across the two nations today we will remember them.

Although I am someone who hasn't served (but like most, had family that have) I have the utmost respect for those that do and the sacrifices they make to keep us all safe. I think it is only fitting we speak of Defence for example on these forums in a positive way because they lay their lives on the line 24/7. They do their best with what they are given, and even though it may be with less in some instances, their professionalism is well respected by the many they work alongside and continue to work alongside across the globe.

 

[pgclift]

When the 2ww broke out my uncle Leslie Sanders was living in New Zealand and enlisted in the RNZAF and was selected for pilot training. After training in Canada, he eventually was posted to 217 Squadron RAF and ended up flying Lockheed Hudsons out of Ceylon (Sri Lanka) mostly on anti-submarine patrols.
On 30 April 1943 he was killed and I never got to meet him as I was born in 1951 in Australia.
My mother was always dreadfully upset on the anniversary of his birthday and death.
So, because of the link to the RNZAF I am more strongly drawn to New Zealand and it's Defence Forces during ANZAC Day commemorations. Especially the playing and singing of the New Zealand National Anthem.
May God Defend New Zealand.
Lest We Forget.
Phillip Clift

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Retired Major General John Howard launches his report "God Defend New Zealand", which argues the country's acquisition framework is too slownd a few other points which we have all argued about.

Also the mind set of kiwi's in general... which he starts talking about (about 31 minutes in)