That makes a lot of sense Nighthawk. Space domain and complementary activities with an industrial - tertiary service sector focus to it.
NZDF General discussion thread
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That makes good sense. Such a group should consist of the FVEY plus Japan, India and Singapore. I am unsure about SK because I suspect that they have been successfully penetrated by NK and PRC. Maybe Indonesia in some capacity but again how well has the PRC penetrated Indonesian government and the TNI?
On the space frontier, we do have the advantage in that NZ is well placed for insertion of satellites into orbit because of our location and the low air traffic in our region. The government is friendly towards space endeavours and businesses are relatively easily to start up in NZ. Christchurch appears to be the main space related centre with Auckland running a close second. Both have world class universities and I do know that the University of Canterbury is active in rocketry. It uses the Kaitorete Spit for rocket launches. The University of Canterbury also has a research department that specialises in satellite navigation systems and research amongst other things. Undoubtedly the University of Auckland will have similar facilities. NZ also has considerable experience in composite materials because of its involvement in the Americas Cup Yacht racing and other maritime endeavours. The Rocket Lab rockets are mostly constructed using composite materials.
Each of the other nations brings something to the table that they specialise in and / or are able to provide capabilities or capacity for. That would be the benefits of such a group.
Huh. And here I am, wondering how AUKUS transitioned from a defence agreement around nuclear powered submarines, to yet another trading pact with the minnows anxious to get a mouthful of the teat.
oldsig
That is the key thing. New Zealand in modern times has zero skin in the nuclear game and it is unlikely that it will. At its core AUKUS is about building nuclear submarines and the technology transfer protocols around that so as to include Australia.
Nuclear submarines are not the direction we will head in at all. The SMH article with the NZ High Commissioner only makes an extrapolation into AUKUS, wrongly in my view, from a comment that the High Commissioner said.
For the second time just in case people don't get the context;
Ms King specifically said:
“It’s been made clear to us that other countries are going to be welcome to be involved in other parts of the architecture”
That in no way shape or form can be inferred by any close reading that this means that NZ or others will be invited into AUKUS.
What it does mean is that there are other parts of the broader security architecture where it is more appropriate and capability wise more synergetic for New Zealand to be involved. As noted in the Space Domain there is an obvious subset where we have rapidly advanced with some impressive technical innovations and built up a considerable amount of scale since our first space launch of Atea 1 in 2010.
Other countries in terms of AI for example one cannot go past Japan being included as well as in the Space Domain.
Just because AUKUS exists and will work within its remit, technological cross-pollination in other aspects that AUKUS may touch on beyond the core subs remit, does not preclude further arrangements between parties in those areas - but not within the context of the tri-lateral AUKUS relationship.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Asia Pacific is indeed the future but Ontario-Québec (Canada’s economic centre) is US focused to a large extent (the vulnerable auto industry being very significant). Western Canada is resource rich and realizes the value of Asian trade (AB,SK, and MB). BC environmentalists and looney leftists will
likely derail resource exports. Canada’s productivity is not as good as the US and Canadian companies are dependent on a weak dollar relative to the US in order to remain competitive. Selling in Asia would be difficult without significant productivity gains. Much of our resource exports are just as vulnerable to Xi’s mood as Australia’s.
Your resource companies must be shuddering in their collective boots.
Your mate Junior has just appointed a rampant activist to his cabinet as the Environment Minister. Trudeau taps ex-Greenpeace activist for Canada environment minister
Rocket Lab isn't ours anymore. Neutron will be built and launched from the USA, the website is now rocketlabusa.com, the majority of it's ownership is in the US. We can be proud of what they did but going forward there's nothing Kiwi about them apart from Beck. Rocket Lab reminds me of Navman, world leading technology, bought and asset stripped for there tech and nothing left of the company apart from the brand on products that aren't related to the original company.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The guy was a total dud as heritage minister and junior is using him as a ornament to promote climate policy which he won’t deliver on, just like all the other stupid promises to our moronic electorate.
Not just Beck who makes Rocketlab happen. There are younger friends of mine involved in this right from the start and they would dispute that there is nothing Kiwi about this as you attempt to contend. The breakthrough intellectual grunt and design innovation is coming out of NZ. The US based venture capital firms and incorporation in the US exchange are just the money side to make this happen - that is precisely why they invested in this - the Kiwi based brains trust which Beck leads. It does not remind me of Navman at all, completely different investment structures, acquisition history, and rationale for investment.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
As the Angry Astronaut as well as others (on Youtube) ... says most of the research and development is done in New Zealand and to that he is right, and he doesn't care what anyone else says or where their head office is... it is still a New Zealand rocket company... (even though technically as a whole it is both Kiwi/US but the bulk of the funding comes from the US. The NZ subsidiary is still 100% NZ owned, and that is where 90% of the research and development is done.
The main reason Beck went to the US is for the funding, and to get the funding he had to register as a US company and have a certain percentage of work done in the US. Namely the 3D printing of the "Rutherford Engines" as NZ doesn't/didn't have that capability and infrastructure in place to meet the demand. May do now but at the time we didn't have that. So was decided that part can be don in the US.
Electron is a very capable small sat-rocket provider and very few launches of the Electron will be at Wallops Island in the states, mainly US military ones (That the Greens NZ party would complain about) and a couple of others that require a certain orbit. Mahia has 2 launch pads pad A, and Pad B and their Wallops Island site has the single pad and to the best of my knowledge will be sharing the pad with their neighbors for launching Neutron. This may change.
But Beck himself has said calling the company RocketLab was probably a bad idea... because they don't just do rockets they build space craft as well and have acquired a variety of smaller supply companies as part of their supply chain for parts. The 3rd stage or Kick stage/Photon of Electron is a major example of their capabilities, which other companies are now trying to copy.
Even Dawn Aerospace is a Dutch/New Zealand Venture the other NZ company wanting to get into the launch game while they have a small space plane which is still going through it test phases etc... They build and sell their satellite thrusters... and are doing quite well with them.
You can argue all you like but it doesn't change the facts, and the facts are Rocketlab is now an American company.
I find Dawn Aerospace much more interesting, the ability to launch form almost any existing runway world wide is great idea, which gives them near unlimited potential orbits.
Yeah. Just like Manchester United's ultimate holding company is in the Cayman Islands, that other great Cayman Island company Ali Baba and the vast majority of "American" Private Equity and Hedge Funds who own chunks of many listed US companies that often themselves have ultimate holding companies in the Caymans, Bermuda or the British VI.
It was be very interesting to see where they are going to get their expansion capital from.
You are nitpicking and actually in reality it doesn't matter whether or not the company is registered in the US and listed on a US stockmarket or not. At the present point in time it has a larger footprint in NZ than it does in the US and it happens to fly a Kiwi flag. It just happens to be one of many Kiwi start ups that had to go offshore. FYI Zuru is a NZ company but it's not registered here.
Back to Rocket Lab, some people of the left leaning persuasion get their knickers in a twist each time Rocket Lab does a launch for the US DOD. They wouldn't be as upset if it was a launch with the PLA of Russian military as a customer. It is interesting each time a PLAN warship has done a port visit there isn’t a peep out of the left wing protestors, but as soon as there was a whisper of the USN ship visit in 2016, they were immediately up in arms screaming blue murder. There is a strong anti American streak in the left wing community here and they are quick to show it. It's quite hypocritical of them.
As far as most Kiwis are concerned Rocket Lab is a Kiwi company and they're quite happy about the situation. Yes they know that the money is American, but that doesn't worry them because it has the Kiwi vibe and flies from here most of the time. If some people can't handle that then they need to get a life.
As an observation, Space Operations is far wider than launch. While reactive launch is a very relevant mission into LEO with small satellites, it is just a transportation concept for the payload which is the whole rational for having 'stuff up there' supporting the Joint Force. Space Ops covers everything from ISR, SATCOM, PNT, Space Control, Space SA, to Missile Launch warning. What NZDF may lack at the moment is the access to this 'stuff', for multiple reasons. So as much as I salute RL and their kiwi-coolness, and of course that they provide a temporary win over Australian launch capability, they are a service provider to get your valuable effects into a position whereby they can start supporting the nation.
Aside from the ubiquitous 'C' word that, in some peoples minds, does all things for all occasions (including making the tea) I really do hope that the AUKUS agreement provides the kick start for NZDF to start taking Space seriously. Because they are presently being left behind by the rest of FVEY, including Canada, IMHO.
Obviously, some actual NZDF kinetic capability would be nice to have too.
Te werawera As Cuz
Aside from the ubiquitous 'C' word that, in some peoples minds, does all things for all occasions (including making the tea) I really do hope that the AUKUS agreement provides the kick start for NZDF to start taking Space seriously. Because they are presently being left behind by the rest of FVEY, including Canada, IMHO.
Obviously, some actual NZDF kinetic capability would be nice to have too.
Te werawera As Cuz
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Ask Peter Beck and he will tell you it is a joint venture...
LucyCraymer
New Member
Hi - I am a reporter with Stuff covering National Security. I've been trying to do a series of the systemic lack of funding of NZ's military and the problems this is causing and what is needed to turn it around. If anyone is keen to chat (on background -- meaning I won't quote you!) please reach out on my work email (it's [email protected]) or here. Thanks
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
If you haven't already, suggest you read through the various NZ threads on here. Might really be worth your time plenty of coverage on the poor funding of the NZDF. The NZ Defpros on here have been super critical of the lack of funding.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Ask yah questions here you will get a variety of ideas and answers... but we will all say the nzdf is woefully under funded. And just increasing the budget probably wouldn't fix the issues...
LucyCraymer
New Member
What are the biggest issues? What should I be looking for? And how does the funding playing out in real world examples? (I need to show readers why having an underfunded military is a problem for them!) And how aware is the government of these issues?