NZDF General discussion thread

[Stuart Mackey]

3) Cut the crap. ANZUS is still in force, only mutual obligations between the US and NZ are suspended

Thats right, the NZ political perspective is that its over bar the ink on the paper because that is the de-facto situation.

until NZ grows up and realises that a quiet diplomatic word with the US would have seen them send only non-nucs without the self-righteous posturing that demands a public declaration of status from vessels that form part of the forward deployed fleet that maintains the balance in Asia. For example, none of the frigates carry or are powered by nuclear associated technology. Neither do LPDs. or Supply Ships (unless carrying ammunition and surely the US could have made port calls during mutual training when that ammo wasn't there).

Brett.

NZ politics is not your strong suite is it? the legislation was necessary to ensure public debate on the issue, should change be desired, as opposed to change of policy by fiat of executive order regardless of popular opinion. If there is any growing up to do its a US attitude that it must impose penalties on a free nation for the actions of its freely elected government, rather than accept our right to determine what and whom may enter our waters, territory and when. One does not walk into a friends home, with items one knows to be found objectionable to the owner, then claim offence when they ask you to leave and not bring them again! Self righteous Brett? your hubris is astounding.

 

[battlensign]

Thats right, the NZ political perspective is that its over bar the ink on the paper because that is the de-facto situation.

And on a daily basis you suffer for that through you inability to access shared intelligence that the Americans provide. Get your house in order and it won't be a problem.

NZ politics is not your strong suite is it? the legislation was necessary to ensure public debate on the issue, should change be desired, as opposed to change of policy by fiat of executive order regardless of popular opinion. If there is any growing up to do its a US attitude that it must impose penalties on a free nation for the actions of its freely elected government, rather than accept our right to determine what and whom may enter our waters, territory and when. One does not walk into a friends home, with items one knows to be found objectionable to the owner, then claim offence when they ask you to leave and not bring them again! Self righteous Brett? your hubris is astounding.

Stop smoking the bong and get away from the keyboard! :shudder

Actually politics in Aus, NZ , CAN and the US is a speacialisation of mine, ironically.

Public debate on what issue? If you simply had a quiet word with the yanks you could have recieved what you were after. There quite simply would have been no "issue" (and no need for a public debate). No - What your government wanted was to grandstand and make a point (despite there ACTUALLY BEING NO PRACTICAL NEED - read political vote issue). Good on them......suffer the consequences. My hubris astounding? What about your ignorance? Name one nuclear armed ship that the Americans "forced" you to suffer in your house.

Your government was wrong to do it and NZ suffers as a result. I only wish I were in a position to detail to your the wide-ranging aspects of this. Suffice to say that if it was recently newsworthy to be called an ally, that should be a very good example.

Brett.

 

[steve33]

No offence, but that's nonsense. The public would be happy to invest in something, anything, if they see a need to do so. The problem is that people don't see a connection between Defence and their way of life, standard of living and their aspirations as they do with, say, heath spending or the police.

That is my point,the average New Zealander doesn,t give a toss about the state of our military they really don,t.

They see no direct threat to New Zealand and don,t believe that the rest of the worlds problems are of any concern to them so in there minds we don,t need a decent defence force and until we can turn that belief around we are going to have to put up with what we see now.

 

[steve33]

Really nothing has changed, ANZUS as said before is a treaty which talks to one another and is more symbolic .Australia invoked the ANZUS treaty for sept 11 we did not go rushing a fleet F18/F111 to conus; we went on a higher alert states which was an acceptable action for the time, as far as I am aware there is nothing in the treaty to suggesting the US has to come to our defence. Just as we are a strategic asset in terms of our position in the world (i.e. pine gap etc), just it’s in there best interest’s as ours to come to the defence of Australia.

What can New Zealand bring to the table?
With an ironic twist NZ is right to beef up the army, we can look to the kiwi’s to bring a supplemental force to assist the ADF which it is has done in the past, take Vietnam for instance, it was a task force were the kiwis brought in limited numbers but those numbers made a significant contribution to the operation of the task force (sas,artillery).
Fast forward to the present day, PM Rudd sees the need for an expanded navy and maritime strike force, increase the commitment for the navy and air force and of course army, but with army look at ways the kiwis can supplement (i.e. similar to a reserve force which can be brought up in case of emergency) Kiwi’s should look at deficiencies in ADF were it could make a bigger contribution but also for peacekeeping missions in the future

Evan though I would like to see a massive increase in New Zealand’s defence force they just don’t have the money to make it more of an overall force structure.
It is also not to say that they should get rid of the frigates and opv they are still a necessity for New Zealand’s territorial waters.

Good Post i also look at the army as where we can really get something done the cost of fully combat ready Frigates must be getting around 1 billion dollers and it is starting to become a problem for a country of our size the army is something we can really get our teeth into.

We have always produced good soldiers as history has shown and we should look to create an army that may be small but is elite.

We should look to attain the highest standards possiable and like a broken record i will repeat my belief that we need a Ranger school that our soldiers can go through bettering themselves then going back to there battalions and maintaining those standards lifting the standards of the battalions as a whole and at the same time giving us more soldiers that are special operations qualified which is so important these days and we should also look at putting a big effort into developing snipers which are going to become increasingly important in this modern age of warfare against insurgents.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

That is my point,the average New Zealander doesn,t give a toss about the state of our military they really don,t.

They see no direct threat to New Zealand and don,t believe that the rest of the worlds problems are of any concern to them so in there minds we don,t need a decent defence force and until we can turn that belief around we are going to have to put up with what we see now.

No, that's ignorance, not 'not giving a toss', there is a difference. If people were informed to a reasonable degree about what defence is and what it can and cannot do, and still did not care, then you would be correct, but that is not the case.

 

[StevoJH]

Good Post i also look at the army as where we can really get something done the cost of fully combat ready Frigates must be getting around 1 billion dollers and it is starting to become a problem for a country of our size the army is something we can really get our teeth into.

We have always produced good soldiers as history has shown and we should look to create an army that may be small but is elite.

We should look to attain the highest standards possiable and like a broken record i will repeat my belief that we need a Ranger school that our soldiers can go through bettering themselves then going back to there battalions and maintaining those standards lifting the standards of the battalions as a whole and at the same time giving us more soldiers that are special operations qualified which is so important these days and we should also look at putting a big effort into developing snipers which are going to become increasingly important in this modern age of warfare against insurgents.

Forget establishing your own "Ranger" program since your army is to small, why not send them to Australia and put them through whatever program the guys in 4RAR go through? Alternatively send them to the UK and have them put through their commando training.

 

[exported_kiwi]

So, it appears you advocate status quo and zero extra expenditure. If you're a Kiwi, I'm ashamed of you!

 

[exported_kiwi]

Well said! I am of the same mindset, but also asking, why was the nuke issue so important?

 

[exported_kiwi]

Why not? It's because our shemale of a PM is a fan of the arts etc. Try throwing a cello at the enemies when they knock on the damn door!
My wishes are as follows, and are affordable;
4FFGs
At least we coulda got 28 F16As,
The army needs, NEEDS tracked AFVs. Whoever deemed the NZLAVs as adequate has never been in a position to render an objective opinion!
All in all, NZ can and should do more. The question is, why aren't we? I'll tellya why! It's because we have an artistic PM who sees the world through rose coloured glasses, hates the military and is probably a felcher!
I'm not impressed, after 22 years of service in the RNZ military, I have spoken, take heed NZ, please!
After my years of service, and seeing what has become of my nation, I turned away and bought a home In Aussie. Then I went to China...still there, because I'm disillusioned with the current defence policies of my, "so called" leaders!
I swore an oath to HM, the Queen, not hb (her bitchiness) Ms Clark, so until my oath is somehow nullified, I retain the right to speak and take action as I see fit because the bitch (Clark) is going against all that I am, that NZ is and all that the ANZAC brotherhood is!
Nuff said, for now!
Sorry mods, some things just haveta be said!

 

[exported_kiwi]

There has been no change of government so we're back to being uniformed monkeys for the damned bitch in leadership. I'm sorry, but I have no love or respect for her (obviously) and the sooner she is gone, the better. National is slightly better but still, politics seems to rule. Reality is what matters and the sooner we face up to it, the better we'll be able to fulfill our obligations!
God defend NZ because God knows we can't, nor can Oz!

 

[Stuart Mackey]

There has been no change of government so we're back to being uniformed monkeys for the damned bitch in leadership. I'm sorry, but I have no love or respect for her (obviously) and the sooner she is gone, the better. National is slightly better but still, politics seems to rule. Reality is what matters and the sooner we face up to it, the better we'll be able to fulfill our obligations!
God defend NZ because God knows we can't, nor can Oz!

I was not aware that it was a government responsibility to inform the populace of facts inimical to its own policy, especially when those facts may cost it votes at election time. Needless to say we could do ourselves a favour and inform and educate ourselves rather than expecting the government to do it for us, which they wont.
Indeed it is our duty to ourselves and our country, regardless of ones political views, to be well informed, lest we all become unwitting victims of scoundrels in government.

 

[steve33]

I was not aware that it was a government responsibility to inform the populace of facts inimical to its own policy, especially when those facts may cost it votes at election time. Needless to say we could do ourselves a favour and inform and educate ourselves rather than expecting the government to do it for us, which they wont.
Indeed it is our duty to ourselves and our country, regardless of ones political views, to be well informed, lest we all become unwitting victims of scoundrels in government.

Great post, we need to educate ourselves about the world we live in not wait for the government to do it for us once you sit back and be content to believe what ever crap your government feeds you you are heading for a fall.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

Great post, we need to educate ourselves about the world we live in not wait for the government to do it for us once you sit back and be content to believe what ever crap your government feeds you you are heading for a fall.

Exactly right, and defence of NZ is a case in point.

 

[steve33]

Forget establishing your own "Ranger" program since your army is to small, why not send them to Australia and put them through whatever program the guys in 4RAR go through? Alternatively send them to the UK and have them put through their commando training.

Good idea.

 

[steve33]

Why not? It's because our shemale of a PM is a fan of the arts etc. Try throwing a cello at the enemies when they knock on the damn door!
My wishes are as follows, and are affordable;
4FFGs
At least we coulda got 28 F16As,
The army needs, NEEDS tracked AFVs. Whoever deemed the NZLAVs as adequate has never been in a position to render an objective opinion!
All in all, NZ can and should do more. The question is, why aren't we? I'll tellya why! It's because we have an artistic PM who sees the world through rose coloured glasses, hates the military and is probably a felcher!
I'm not impressed, after 22 years of service in the RNZ military, I have spoken, take heed NZ, please!
After my years of service, and seeing what has become of my nation, I turned away and bought a home In Aussie. Then I went to China...still there, because I'm disillusioned with the current defence policies of my, "so called" leaders!
I swore an oath to HM, the Queen, not hb (her bitchiness) Ms Clark, so until my oath is somehow nullified, I retain the right to speak and take action as I see fit because the bitch (Clark) is going against all that I am, that NZ is and all that the ANZAC brotherhood is!
Nuff said, for now!
Sorry mods, some things just haveta be said!

You not going to see anything different under a national government the last election they didn,t say they would bring back the strike wing and in the 1990,s what did they do for the army as far as buying new equipment.

The problem is not Helen Clark the problem is the attitude of the New Zealand people towards the defence of our country and interests and if we showed more interest and concern it would become an election issue and you would see something done.

 

[thorpete1]

NZ can become a greater regional power by becoming a part of Australia. i mean they would get access to /protected by a actual aircraft a bigger military, wealth generated by the mining boom etc. Its even written in the Australian constitution that if NZ ever chose to join Australia they could become a state of Australia, avoiding all theat messy territory stuff (Clause 6 of the Australian Constitution mentions NZ as a colony that could be considered as an original state and could be admitted to the commonwealth at anytime , Chapter 6 of the Australian Constitution Discuss how new states can be formed as part of the commonwealth).

Just an Idea but it makes sense. Australia gets the boost in population (Human and Sheep) and New Zealand gets better protection and power projection and skimps of our minerals and resources boom.

cheers

 

[Stuart Mackey]

And on a daily basis you suffer for that through you inability to access shared intelligence that the Americans provide. Get your house in order and it won't be a problem.

What makes you think the public gives a damn?

Stop smoking the bong and get away from the keyboard! :shudder

Actually politics in Aus, NZ , CAN and the US is a speacialisation of mine, ironically.

Perhaps your degree fell out of the weetbix box over breakfast?

Public debate on what issue? If you simply had a quiet word with the yanks you could have recieved what you were after.

No, that wouldnt have done at all. What you are missing is the electoral weapon it provided labour, and its a weapon of almost limitless ammunition so long as the public dislikes nuclear weapons, you see public dislike of nukes is the weapon that just keeps on giving. Indeed that weapon was one of two reasons that gave Labour victory in 2005 (the other being a really big bribe). Light dawning for you yet?

There quite simply would have been no "issue" (and no need for a public debate). No - What your government wanted was to grandstand and make a point (despite there ACTUALLY BEING NO PRACTICAL NEED - read political vote issue). Good on them......suffer the consequences.

Thats right, they wanted votes and election victories, they were and are politicians. Its worth pointing out that National never repealed the legislation over it's nine years in office in the 90's, ever wonder why?

My hubris astounding? What about your ignorance? Name one nuclear armed ship that the Americans "forced" you to suffer in your house.

Oh, please, that legislation prevents nuclear weapons in NZ, were it otherwise any government could allow their presence at will which the public does not want, hence legislation; nukes cannot come into the nation without repeal of the legislation, guaranteeing the public being informed via open debate and parliamentary scrutiny, what don't you get about this?
The fact that all major parties now support this position should make you realise that you are missing something here. That you cannot see why the legislation has never been repealed shows that if there is any ignorance here, its yours.

Your government was wrong to do it

Why?, Labour had an electoral mandate to do it, and that's all that matters.

and NZ suffers as a result.

Which the majority of the public are happy to accept. Note its has never been repealed.

I only wish I were in a position to detail to your the wide-ranging aspects of this.

No, please, go ahead. Note, the legislation has never been repealed.

Suffice to say that if it was recently newsworthy to be called an ally, that should be a very good example.

Brett.

Not really, no.
You really don't get it do you?, the majority here like that legislation and don't give damn about the consequences, what's hilarious is that you cant handle it.

 

[battlensign]

Stuart, all I was wanting to do was highlight the fact that there was no practical reason for the legislation from a relations with the US point of view - only from a purely political one. It sounds like you are willing to concede this, but believe in the legislation's political purposes. I am supprised to hear that from a person who values defence. Are you not concerned by the wider anti-defence narrative being weaved with the assistance of this legislation? At the very least, it is being used by a political party to remain in power and continue to emasculate the NZDFs....... that ought to be a worry.

I can handle the consequences of it, but I am concerned that it means a less robust NZDFs for the ADF to partner with in coalition ops.....

I take your point about the ability of National to repeal if they so desired, but obviously politically they cannot. Which actually ought to show that there is no need for the legislation as there is no one brave enought to defy the anti-nuclear defence. On another note, doesn't there exist an idea of government in "the national interest"? What the people need is not always what they want. I note that the wider international security architecture and global order is backed by nuclear powers and their weapons. So at least on one level (albeit somewhat removed) the NZ government and people are slapping the hand that sustains them via the legislation.

Brett.

 

[stryker NZ]

sorry for the slightly off topic post but i was listening to Phil Goffs interview about the possible FTA with the United States and in the middle he quickly mentioned said FTA would give New Zeland access to US military contracts. Now i was wondering what that exactly means and what new zealand industry could actually offer that already exsisting US companies could not.

here a link to the story (part i was referring to at 1:50)
http://www.3news.co.nz/Video/Politics/tabid/370/articleID/72663/cat/67/Default.aspx#video

 

[Stuart Mackey]

sorry for the slightly off topic post but i was listening to Phil Goffs interview about the possible FTA with the United States and in the middle he quickly mentioned said FTA would give New Zeland access to US military contracts. Now i was wondering what that exactly means and what new zealand industry could actually offer that already exsisting US companies could not.

snip link

Who knows what NZ industry could offer, the important thing is the chance and opportunity to bid because without that we would never know what could happen.