NZDF General discussion thread

[buglerbilly]

Regarding an air combat group, I believe that it can take around 5 years to rebuild the corporate knowledge needed to have a quality air combat element.

WHERE are you going to get the Pilots from? Back from the RAAF and the RAF? I don't really think so do you? Have you got any idea how many pilots could even be considered for a Fast Jet role that are still in NZ?

The cost of re-establishing a Fast Combat Jet will run into the Billion OR two, take far more than 5 years, and you'd still struggle to man the Force IF you leave RNZAF pay levels where they currently are.

Y'all want to improve the force get better Transports, A400M's IF they work out would be better for NZ than C-130J in my opinion and replace the Orions with a mix of P-8's and BAMS-style UAV's.

UAV's as a whole are notable for their absence in NZ, THAT would be a near-term area to address.

And dump the SeaSprites and get back the Super Lynxes NZ wanted in the first place, a much better choice for NZ maritime needs.

Regards,

BUG

 

[Tasman]

WHERE are you going to get the Pilots from? Back from the RAAF and the RAF? I don't really think so do you? Have you got any idea how many pilots could even be considered for a Fast Jet role that are still in NZ?

The cost of re-establishing a Fast Combat Jet will run into the Billion OR two, take far more than 5 years, and you'd still struggle to man the Force IF you leave RNZAF pay levels where they currently are.

Y'all want to improve the force get better Transports, A400M's IF they work out would be better for NZ than C-130J in my opinion and replace the Orions with a mix of P-8's and BAMS-style UAV's.

UAV's as a whole are notable for their absence in NZ, THAT would be a near-term area to address.

And dump the SeaSprites and get back the Super Lynxes NZ wanted in the first place, a much better choice for NZ maritime needs.

The five years plus that you refer to sounds to me like a good reason to recommission at least some of the MB339s to preserve fast jet skills in the RNZAF so that a air combat force can be more easily re-established in the future if circumstances change.

Perhaps you could offer the dumped Seasprites to the RAN. They might jump at the chance to get Seasprites that can fly! nfloorl:

Cheers

 

[RubiconNZ]

And dump the SeaSprites and get back the Super Lynxes NZ wanted in the first place, a much better choice for NZ maritime needs.

Not to sound rude but why, I remember hearing the RNZN wanted the Super Lynxes but what was the reasoning behind it?

 

[Tasman]

Not to sound rude but why, I remember hearing the RNZN wanted the Super Lynxes but what was the reasoning behind it?

IIRC the RNZN 's preference was for the Super Lynx but they were also keen to standardise equipment as far as possible with Australia so they opted for the Seasprite. A bit ironic now!

Cheers

 

[buglerbilly]

The five years plus that you refer to sounds to me like a good reason to recommission at least some of the MB390s to preserve fast jet skills in the RNZAF so that a air combat force can be more easily re-established in the future if circumstances change.

NZ cannot keep any MB339's they are already sold are they not? The North Amercian company that has bought them needs them for Training Contracts it is already committed to.

Not to sound rude but why, I remember hearing the RNZN wanted the Super Lynxes but what was the reasoning behind it?

That's NOT rude (compared to some of the tripe spouted previously on this thread) but you would have to ask the RNZN to find out their reasoning originally.

Possibly, my surmise, they viewed SeaSprite as being Legacy, lacking in potential development, no longer supported by the USA and its Forces and lacking in the ability to mover personnel as walk-on cargo, i.e. limited/non-existent passenger ability. It also has a poor reputation for landing in rough conditions, probably as a result of its higher CofG and suspension.

Sea Lynx was already identified in the UK, and by the manufacturer, as having further substantial development capability by replacing the RR Gems with LHTEC T-800's (or MTR-390's?). The fact Super Lynx, or Lynx 300 as Agusta Westland call it, has sold reasonably well seems to back this decision.
Lynx is also far more suitable for small vessel such as the now extant OPV's. MRV obviously suits anything up to & including NH90.

The RAN should have bought more Sea Hawks at the time. Buying Sea Sprites was bizarre to say the least, without making any relevant comment about the pathetic Contract they placed with Kaman. As soon as the original software/system integrator couldn't complete the contract, the government should have cancelled the contract with Kaman. Even IF they had been stupid enough to pay Kaman cancellation fee's for Kaman's inability to perform, the losses would have been FAR less than they now are.

Regards,

BUG

 

[Tasman]

NZ cannot keep any MB339's they are already sold are they not? The North Amercian company that has bought them needs them for Training Contracts it is already committed to.

That's news to me as a lot of posts in this thread from from Kiwis have indicated that they have not yet been sold. Do you have a source for this info Bug?

Possibly, my surmise, they viewed SeaSprite as being Legacy, lacking in potential development, no longer supported by the USA and its Forces and lacking in the ability to mover personnel as walk-on cargo, i.e. limited/non-existent passenger ability. It also has a poor reputation for landing in rough conditions, probably as a result of its higher CofG and suspension.

Sea Lynx was already identified in the UK, and by the manufacturer, as having further substantial development capability by replacing the RR Gems with LHTEC T-800's (or MTR-390's?). The fact Super Lynx, or Lynx 300 as Agusta Westland call it, has sold reasonably well seems to back this decision.
Lynx is also far more suitable for small vessel such as the now extant OPV's. MRV obviously suits anything up to & including NH90.

Sounds a reasonable surmise to me!

The RAN should have bought more Sea Hawks at the time. Buying Sea Sprites was bizarre to say the least, without making any relevant comment about the pathetic Contract they placed with Kaman. As soon as the original software/system integrator couldn't complete the contract, the government should have cancelled the contract with Kaman. Even IF they had been stupid enough to pay Kaman cancellation fee's for Kaman's inability to perform, the losses would have been FAR less than they now are.

Regards,

BUG

I agree that the RAN should have bought more Seahawks. The Seasprite was regarded as more suitable for the projected OPVs and it came down to a choice between them and the Super Lynx. When the OPV program didn't go ahead the RAN still went ahead and ordered the Seasprite. I thought it was strange at the time and I still do.

Cheers

 

[Lucasnz]

There is an agreement to sell the MB339, but it is subject to approval from the Italy. Similar story with regards the A-4's.

I have to wonder why the approval has taken nearly six years so far. Seems a long time even for diplomats.

 

[Tasman]

There is an agreement to sell the MB339, but it is subject to approval from the Italy. Similar story with regards the A-4's.

I have to wonder why the approval has taken nearly six years so far. Seems a long time even for diplomats.

Thanks for that Lucas. Six years to approve a sale!

Cheers

 

[Mr Brown]

Maybe our friends(?) in the Pentagon are hoping that the next elections will produce a National lead govt, who may be more inclined to re-establishing NZs air strike force. They would thus assume that having aircraft already available in NZ would make this more likely to happen.

 

[stray_kiwi]

Maybe our friends(?) in the Pentagon are hoping that the next elections will produce a National lead govt, who may be more inclined to re-establishing NZs air strike force. They would thus assume that having aircraft already available in NZ would make this more likely to happen.

Nothing in Nationals Defense Policy states anything about re-establishing the air strike force. The only party committing itself via published policy to do this is New Zealand First.

 

[Mr Brown]

It may not be official National policy, but they may be more inclined towards it as a price for closer co-operation with US, something that they have been in favour of for some time.

 

[buglerbilly]

In late 2005 the NZ government announced that the surviving A-4Ks and MB-339Cs, (17 aircraft of each type, not counting A-4s in museums) were to be sold to an American company, Tactical Air Systems, for use in jet training, subject to the usual U. S. governmental approvals. Tactical Air Systems announced RNZAF colour schemes would be preserved, "out of respect for the history and traditions of the RNZAF". The aircraft remain in storage at Woodbourne due to U. S. State Department concerns about having two squadrons of combat jets operating over the U. S. in private hands.

The last line seems more than a bit disingenuous seeing as there are other Civilian companies carrying out Fast Jet Training in the USA.

Regards,

BUG

 

[stray_kiwi]

The last line seems more than a bit disingenuous seeing as there are other Civilian companies carrying out Fast Jet Training in the USA.

Regards,

BUG

I think the State Department's concern had something to do with the advanced avionics present aboard the Project Kahu A4's

 

[Markus40]

Tasman, AA had a really good article about the Australian Seasprite recently and there appears to have been issues that no one at the time knew about. It would seem Kaman has tried and bent over backwards to fix all of the problems including the ergonomical seating arrangment for the Nav pilot, and yet the Commonwealth body for Defence has completely blocked the Seasprite , period, thus frustrating Kamans ability to Help the RAN fix its seasprites.

I just hope the Australian government and Kaman can cut through the red tape and solve this issue once and for all. Its a damn good helicopter.

That's news to me as a lot of posts in this thread from from Kiwis have indicated that they have not yet been sold. Do you have a source for this info Bug?



Sounds a reasonable surmise to me!



I agree that the RAN should have bought more Seahawks. The Seasprite was regarded as more suitable for the projected OPVs and it came down to a choice between them and the Super Lynx. When the OPV program didn't go ahead the RAN still went ahead and ordered the Seasprite. I thought it was strange at the time and I still do.

Cheers

 

[Markus40]

Interesting. I did hear something about that too some time back. I think from the media reports so far there are no deals on the table right now and certainly nothing as far as a contract from anyone. I think the Malaysian Airforce took a look at them at one stage.

I do agree with you as to why its taken all this time to sell them, however selling old and limited range jets is not going to be easy. Despite the upkeep on them while they were operational with the RNZAF. I think the longer they dont sell the less chance they will.

There is an agreement to sell the MB339, but it is subject to approval from the Italy. Similar story with regards the A-4's.

I have to wonder why the approval has taken nearly six years so far. Seems a long time even for diplomats.

 

[Markus40]

I somehow doubt the sentiment. I do agree that the Pentagon would rather see NZ operating a squadron of modern and capable fighters in this region, but based on the aircraft we have in storage i really doubt it. Even the MB339s are now beyond there use by date.

Maybe our friends(?) in the Pentagon are hoping that the next elections will produce a National lead govt, who may be more inclined to re-establishing NZs air strike force. They would thus assume that having aircraft already available in NZ would make this more likely to happen.

 

[Markus40]

True, however having spoken to different members within National myself it would appear that the air defence wing in NZ is a strong part of Nationals defence policy either by basing Australian jets within NZ or by buying and setting up our own air defence wing.

Nothing in Nationals Defense Policy states anything about re-establishing the air strike force. The only party committing itself via published policy to do this is New Zealand First.

 

[Markus40]

I believe so too. I think any trade deal or closer co operation with the US by means of a treaty or defence arrangement as you say will require NZ to reinstate and get serious about the very important aspect of our defence forces that currently doesnt exist.

What i might add is that NZ could do well in maintaining Australian refueling tankers on rotation within NZ if the need arises to refuel the current NZ aircraft if required anywhere and anytime of crisis, alongside training the RNZAF. I think that would be a valueble asset to NZs defence posture. Will require aircraft to fitted with refueling booms.

It may not be official National policy, but they may be more inclined towards it as a price for closer co-operation with US, something that they have been in favour of for some time.

 

[Markus40]

Hi Bugglerbilly,

Reestablishing a combat wing will take time, but its not impossible. We dont need to bring back our pilots but we can look within the framework of our own RNZAF and into the pilot training schemes across the country and start from there. Instructors can be hired from Australia on the Hawk 200 which is a good choice of aircraft. And very similar to the A4.

Yes there will need to be an investment of probably 2 billion for aircraft and spares but at least that is a major start up point for establishing our combat wing. NZ doesnt need expensive and extremely fast jets to make us capable. I agree now is a good time to purchase aircraft from the US as the dollar is low. That would be a smart move. It would seem that with the current facilities at Ohakea there would be ample room to park the Hawk. I do think that due to our location in the pacfic that we need to have some air to air refueling ability and this is where Australia could come in on some arrangement to help refuel NZ aircraft being deployed to Australia on humanitarian or military deployments.

The C130s are good till 2015 and so will the P3s. It is extremely unlikely in my opinion that UAVs will be used in the short term as we operate the P3. The other thing is this that NZ Defence has invested in a $100 Million Defence satellite for its own use for communications. Excellent move, If we are to be able to independantly shuffle our forces around.

The one big hole in our capability right now is the stretched operational side of our ANZACS. They are too busy for the 2 we have. One in the Gulf and the other in dry dock or on exercises. We need a third ANZAC. We could do this by perhaps buying the Australian HMAS ANZAC, and the RAN supplementing a 4th AAW Destroyer instead of three to cover the short fall.

However in general all Things are moving in the right direction

WHERE are you going to get the Pilots from? Back from the RAAF and the RAF? I don't really think so do you? Have you got any idea how many pilots could even be considered for a Fast Jet role that are still in NZ?

The cost of re-establishing a Fast Combat Jet will run into the Billion OR two, take far more than 5 years, and you'd still struggle to man the Force IF you leave RNZAF pay levels where they currently are.

Y'all want to improve the force get better Transports, A400M's IF they work out would be better for NZ than C-130J in my opinion and replace the Orions with a mix of P-8's and BAMS-style UAV's.

UAV's as a whole are notable for their absence in NZ, THAT would be a near-term area to address.

And dump the SeaSprites and get back the Super Lynxes NZ wanted in the first place, a much better choice for NZ maritime needs.

Regards,

BUG

 

[Tasman]

Tasman, AA had a really good article about the Australian Seasprite recently and there appears to have been issues that no one at the time knew about. It would seem Kaman has tried and bent over backwards to fix all of the problems including the ergonomical seating arrangment for the Nav pilot, and yet the Commonwealth body for Defence has completely blocked the Seasprite , period, thus frustrating Kamans ability to Help the RAN fix its seasprites.

I just hope the Australian government and Kaman can cut through the red tape and solve this issue once and for all. Its a damn good helicopter.

Hi Markus - good to hear from you.

There seems to be little doubt that the blame for the Seasprite fiasco in Australia can largely be blamed on poor mangement by the Commonwealth. It does appear now that the Defence Minister has been 'rolled' re the Seasprite and it might escape the 'chop'. It will be interesting to see if it gets a mention in next week's budget. It would be good to see them in service to give the RAN frigates a helo armed with a capable AShM. In RNZN service it seems to be doing a good job but I still think the RAN would have been better off with one platform for its FFGs and FFHs. However, if the Oz Seasprite finally gets 'fixed', I'll be very happy.

Cheers