NZDF General discussion thread

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
That ACT budget is quite interesting with the proposed annual defence budget of $9.65 billion, exceedingly close the numbers in a proposed budget that I had sent to a colleague a few months back. Mine came to $9.6 billion and I rounded mine up to $10 billion per annum starting from FY 2023 / 24. I also steered away from the Hunter Class because of costs and looked at alternatives in order to obtain similar capability but for a better cost and enabling us to acquire 3 or 4 hulls instead of 2 or 3. I also looked at a different platform to the F-18F as well, wanting more bang for buck.
I think the f18f would be a good fit. Fully integrated with us arsenal including quickstrike, excellent SA, well supported and proven, good stol performance, tough airframe, good developmental road map. Just costs $17000 an hour usd to run (in us navy service).
But 4 to more type 31/ivers/evolved absalons/ damen enforcer i think has to be the national priority and i think priority over everything else. Without sea links we arent New Zealand any more.
Im voting ACT but im still weary of them. Push comes to shove will they stick to it?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I think the f18f would be a good fit. Fully integrated with us arsenal including quickstrike, excellent SA, well supported and proven, good stol performance, tough airframe, good developmental road map. Just costs $17000 an hour usd to run (in us navy service).
But 4 to more type 31/ivers/evolved absalons/ damen enforcer i think has to be the national priority and i think priority over everything else. Without sea links we arent New Zealand any more.
Im voting ACT but im still weary of them. Push comes to shove will they stick to it?
A lot to like about SH but F-15EX kinematic does offer some advantages. Probably not enough wrt to Australian and USN commonality and joint support wrt SH. Agree, naval acquisitions have priority.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
I think the f18f would be a good fit. Fully integrated with us arsenal including quickstrike, excellent SA, well supported and proven, good stol performance, tough airframe, good developmental road map. Just costs $17000 an hour usd to run (in us navy service).
But 4 to more type 31/ivers/evolved absalons/ damen enforcer i think has to be the national priority and i think priority over everything else. Without sea links we arent New Zealand any more.
Im voting ACT but im still weary of them. Push comes to shove will they stick to it?
Depends on how you would be using it, the FA-18F is primarily used as a Strike Aircraft by the USN and RAAF and is a 2 Crew platform so you are looking at the extra cost of a WSO. Maybe the FA-18E might be a better fit. You still have the commonality with the RAAF and USN without the extra costs associated with the WSO.
 

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
I think the f18f would be a good fit. Fully integrated with us arsenal including quickstrike, excellent SA, well supported and proven, good stol performance, tough airframe, good developmental road map. Just costs $17000 an hour usd to run (in us navy service).
But 4 to more type 31/ivers/evolved absalons/ damen enforcer i think has to be the national priority and i think priority over everything else. Without sea links we arent New Zealand any more.
Im voting ACT but im still weary of them. Push comes to shove will they stick to it?
Frigates: If we were to go down the A140 route I would prefer it be properly kitted out, per Ivers, not the Type 31 version. Any frigate class we get needs to be self contained regards to sensors and armament and I don't think Type 31 fits that bill, it's far to reliant on external factors for survival that NZ doesn't have.

I would have thought the F15EX a better fit compared to F18 given NZs geography and probable opposition: F15EX has good range and loads of various types as well as carry an outsize load for hypersonics. Its more than adequate to deal with the H6K or Flanker variants the CCP would most likely deploy to the Solomons should they feel the need.
It also works well with F35 and other western systems, granted its expensive to run, but it's not an orphan by any stretch.
 
Important thing to note with returning to a 3-4 frigate fleet is manpower. The RNZN already has had to essentially mothball an OPV and IPV due to lack of specialized staff. This is not something that can be fixed quickly. Infrastructure is also lacking and will require money, and time. We will be waiting 2030s earliest, likely 2040s before we can double the number of personnel able to operate frigates effectively. Especially knowing these replacements are likely to require a higher skilled crew and potentially even a larger crew due to their significantly increased displacement and capability (Anzacs are roughly 3600t, Arrowhead 140 and GCS are about 1.5x - 2x displacement respectively).
 

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
Important thing to note with returning to a 3-4 frigate fleet is manpower. The RNZN already has had to essentially mothball an OPV and IPV due to lack of specialized staff. This is not something that can be fixed quickly. Infrastructure is also lacking and will require money, and time. We will be waiting 2030s earliest, likely 2040s before we can double the number of personnel able to operate frigates effectively. Especially knowing these replacements are likely to require a higher skilled crew and potentially even a larger crew due to their significantly increased displacement and capability (Anzacs are roughly 3600t, Arrowhead 140 and GCS are about 1.5x - 2x displacement respectively).
Crew numbers pership are not the issue specifically and displacement isn't the determanent of crew numbers; ANZAC class are 163 as opposed to 157-208 on Type 26 depending on requirements. By way of comparison HMS Victory displaces just over 2000 tons and had a crew of 850.

The issue, as you point out, is skill and overall numbers of skilled personnel in the service as a whole that can crew more ships.
If NZ is serious about it, and I have my doubts about that still, the prospect of a professionally satisfying career path for more people with better pay and conditions is part of the equation, and that means a bipartisan commitment to a larger navy.
This however is not a nettle that NZ, and treasury in particular, are prepared to grasp given that treasury deliberately made those things worse some decades ago.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
Frigates: If we were to go down the A140 route I would prefer it be properly kitted out, per Ivers, not the Type 31 version. Any frigate class we get needs to be self contained regards to sensors and armament and I don't think Type 31 fits that bill, it's far to reliant on external factors for survival that NZ doesn't have.

I would have thought the F15EX a better fit compared to F18 given NZs geography and probable opposition: F15EX has good range and loads of various types as well as carry an outsize load for hypersonics. Its more than adequate to deal with the H6K or Flanker variants the CCP would most likely deploy to the Solomons should they feel the need.
It also works well with F35 and other western systems, granted its expensive to run, but it's not an orphan by any stretch.
I hear you. The f15 has a 20000 hr fatigue life. But i think it might be too asperational, too big a sell to get past treasury. But trying to get support for any type seems unrealistic.

Ivers are actually less to man than anzacs. Take it with a grain of salt but iver was 101 to 120 depending on scope of deployment with berths for 165. Anzacs were 180 ish but heard of them doung long cruises with less and more than that.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
I hear you. The f15 has a 20000 hr fatigue life. But i think it might be too asperational, too big a sell to get past treasury. But trying to get support for any type seems unrealistic.

Ivers are actually less to man than anzacs. Take it with a grain of salt but iver was 101 to 120 depending on scope of deployment with berths for 165. Anzacs were 180 ish but heard of them doung long cruises with less and more than that.
I stand corrected. I thought anzacs were 180.
 

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
I hear you. The f15 has a 20000 hr fatigue life. But i think it might be too asperational, too big a sell to get past treasury. But trying to get support for any type seems unrealistic.

Ivers are actually less to man than anzacs. Take it with a grain of salt but iver was 101 to 120 depending on scope of deployment with berths for 165. Anzacs were 180 ish but heard of them doung long cruises with less and more than that.
If there is bipartisan support for ACF (and a larger navy for that matter), and that will depend on a demonstrable threat, and NZDF runs the project competently and shows why F15EX meets the requirements, then treasury will fall into line.
After all treasury are part of the civil service, they are not the government, even if they occasionally think they are.
 
Crew numbers pership are not the issue specifically and displacement isn't the determanent of crew numbers; ANZAC class are 163 as opposed to 157-208 on Type 26 depending on requirements. By way of comparison HMS Victory displaces just over 2000 tons and had a crew of 850.

The issue, as you point out, is skill and overall numbers of skilled personnel in the service as a whole that can crew more ships.
If NZ is serious about it, and I have my doubts about that still, the prospect of a professionally satisfying career path for more people with better pay and conditions is part of the equation, and that means a bipartisan commitment to a larger navy.
This however is not a nettle that NZ, and treasury in particular, are prepared to grasp given that treasury deliberately made those things worse some decades ago.
Perhaps displacement wasn't the best indicator as you have mention. For vessels of similar age and role, I think it can be a fair measure though given increased levels of automation this comparison is not ideal. But the overall point which we can agree on is that going to a 3-4 frigate fleet requires much more than simply convincing treasury to procure the vessels by themselves.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
If there is bipartisan support for ACF (and a larger navy for that matter), and that will depend on a demonstrable threat, and NZDF runs the project competently and shows why F15EX meets the requirements, then treasury will fall into line.
After all treasury are part of the civil service, they are not the government, even if they occasionally think they are.
I think treasury will want to see how the sopwith camel will turn out. They have lead and delayed enough with serious ramifications that I would limit their input right from the start.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think treasury will want to see how the sopwith camel will turn out. They have lead and delayed enough with serious ramifications that I would limit their input right from the start.
Treasury are having problems with the Sopwith Camel because of its vicious turn to starboard and habit of breaking new pilots. They are looking at the BE-2C instead with the Wright Flyer as backup.
I hear you. The f15 has a 20000 hr fatigue life. But i think it might be too asperational, too big a sell to get past treasury. But trying to get support for any type seems unrealistic.
Not necessarily. If they were acquired through FMS and acquired for the same price as the USAF then they would be VFM especially as would be similar price to F-18F. About US$5 - 10 million flyaway difference in cost, but the capability difference between the two is large. Treasury will accept that as good bang for buck.
Ivers are actually less to man than anzacs. Take it with a grain of salt but iver was 101 to 120 depending on scope of deployment with berths for 165. Anzacs were 180 ish but heard of them doung long cruises with less and more than that.
You have to look at how the RDN (Royal Danish Navy) have been operating them and they aren't lying about the crew numbers. I have been following the Iver Huitfeld Class and Absalon Class closely for at least eight years.
Frigates: If we were to go down the A140 route I would prefer it be properly kitted out, per Ivers, not the Type 31 version. Any frigate class we get needs to be self contained regards to sensors and armament and I don't think Type 31 fits that bill, it's far to reliant on external factors for survival that NZ doesn't have.
The AH140 is basically the OMT F370 which is the Iver Huitfeld Class. There are important differences between the Iver Huitfeld and Absalon Classes and most other warships, and that is their design philosophy and how they were built. They were designed by commercial designers and the RDN to be built in a commercial yard so there are aspects of commercial ships and shipbuilding in them. They used the automation, IPSM and placement of cabling, hosing and piping in easy access channelling in companionways etc., instead of being hidden behind bulkheads, deckheads, and underneath decks. It makes for easier and quicker maintenance and everything is also plug and play. Consoles on the bridge and in the CIC are all multi use and open architecture, so can be used for for different mission modules. Whilst in RDN the Ivers are AD frigates, they can be fitted with floating machinery mounts for ASW specialisation. In RDN they are also STANFLEX capable which is a RDN specific modular armaments system.

IF we were to go down the Ivers path for the RNZN, then we would have to change their fitout to suit our purposes because we have a different operating environment. I would stay with the same basic machinery because they are quick. Maybe we could look at installing a CODLAG system instead of the current CODAD. We may need to lengthen the ship but a 5 -10m plug shouldn't be to much of a problem. The beauty about the design is that its adaptable. Next we could take the fitout from the RCN CSC and install that on the ship, less some of the RCN options and add some of our own. For example we wouldn't require the ESSM Blk II because we already have Sea Ceptor, which the RCN are acquiring as well. We would have to acquire a CIWS and there are a couple around that are far better than Phalanx. The RCN are fitting the SPY-7 radar and the latest AEGIS and we should do the same. The CMS they use is the same as ours. Babcocks don't own yards so we can build the hulls and install the machinery anywhere we like. We could then ship them here and undertake the fitouts here if we wanted to. On paper we should be able to acquire four of these vessels for the same or less price than three Hunter Class frigates built in Australia, City Class Frigates built in UK, or CSC frigates built in Canada, yet have a GP frigate of similar capability and quality.
I would have thought the F15EX a better fit compared to F18 given NZs geography and probable opposition: F15EX has good range and loads of various types as well as carry an outsize load for hypersonics. Its more than adequate to deal with the H6K or Flanker variants the CCP would most likely deploy to the Solomons should they feel the need.
It also works well with F35 and other western systems, granted its expensive to run, but it's not an orphan by any stretch.
IMHO the F-15EX is the better capability because of it's weapon carriage capability and combat radius. It's also able to self escort as well whilst still carrying a very sizeable AGM loadout, something the F-18E/F cannot do.
Depends on how you would be using it, the FA-18F is primarily used as a Strike Aircraft by the USN and RAAF and is a 2 Crew platform so you are looking at the extra cost of a WSO. Maybe the FA-18E might be a better fit. You still have the commonality with the RAAF and USN without the extra costs associated with the WSO.
The reason that a twin seater with a WSO is preferred is not to overload the pilot, leaving them to fly and fight the aircraft whilst the wizzo in the back seat takes care of everything else such as targeting, threat detection, ISR etc. Secondly in RNZAF the F-15EX would primarily be a maritime strike and long range aircraft. Anything else would be secondary and if the army wants CAS they can submit a case for their own ARH / Attack Helos.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Treasury are having problems with the Sopwith Camel because of its vicious turn to starboard and habit of breaking new pilots. They are looking at the BE-2C instead with the Wright Flyer as backup.

Not necessarily. If they were acquired through FMS and acquired for the same price as the USAF then they would be VFM especially as would be similar price to F-18F. About US$5 - 10 million flyaway difference in cost, but the capability difference between the two is large. Treasury will accept that as good bang for buck.

You have to look at how the RDN (Royal Danish Navy) have been operating them and they aren't lying about the crew numbers. I have been following the Iver Huitfeld Class and Absalon Class closely for at least eight years.

The AH140 is basically the OMT F370 which is the Iver Huitfeld Class. There are important differences between the Iver Huitfeld and Absalon Classes and most other warships, and that is their design philosophy and how they were built. They were designed by commercial designers and the RDN to be built in a commercial yard so there are aspects of commercial ships and shipbuilding in them. They used the automation, IPSM and placement of cabling, hosing and piping in easy access channelling in companionways etc., instead of being hidden behind bulkheads, deckheads, and underneath decks. It makes for easier and quicker maintenance and everything is also plug and play. Consoles on the bridge and in the CIC are all multi use and open architecture, so can be used for for different mission modules. Whilst in RDN the Ivers are AD frigates, they can be fitted with floating machinery mounts for ASW specialisation. In RDN they are also STANFLEX capable which is a RDN specific modular armaments system.

IF we were to go down the Ivers path for the RNZN, then we would have to change their fitout to suit our purposes because we have a different operating environment. I would stay with the same basic machinery because they are quick. Maybe we could look at installing a CODLAG system instead of the current CODAD. We may need to lengthen the ship but a 5 -10m plug shouldn't be to much of a problem. The beauty about the design is that its adaptable. Next we could take the fitout from the RCN CSC and install that on the ship, less some of the RCN options and add some of our own. For example we wouldn't require the ESSM Blk II because we already have Sea Ceptor, which the RCN are acquiring as well. We would have to acquire a CIWS and there are a couple around that are far better than Phalanx. The RCN are fitting the SPY-7 radar and the latest AEGIS and we should do the same. The CMS they use is the same as ours. Babcocks don't own yards so we can build the hulls and install the machinery anywhere we like. We could then ship them here and undertake the fitouts here if we wanted to. On paper we should be able to acquire four of these vessels for the same or less price than three Hunter Class frigates built in Australia, City Class Frigates built in UK, or CSC frigates built in Canada, yet have a GP frigate of similar capability and quality.

IMHO the F-15EX is the better capability because of it's weapon carriage capability and combat radius. It's also able to self escort as well whilst still carrying a very sizeable AGM loadout, something the F-18E/F cannot do.

The reason that a twin seater with a WSO is preferred is not to overload the pilot, leaving them to fly and fight the aircraft whilst the wizzo in the back seat takes care of everything else such as targeting, threat detection, ISR etc. Secondly in RNZAF the F-15EX would primarily be a maritime strike and long range aircraft. Anything else would be secondary and if the army wants CAS they can submit a case for their own ARH / Attack Helos.
Agree, the F-15EX has better kinematic performance than the F-18F. Perhaps the latter could be easier to support as Australia is a user in your he region along with the USN. If any long range missions are required, the SH can be retasked as an air to air refueling aircraft. I am sure the RNZAF would welcome either jet.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Agree, the F-15EX has better kinematic performance than the F-18F. Perhaps the latter could be easier to support as Australia is a user in your he region along with the USN. If any long range missions are required, the SH can be retasked as an air to air refueling aircraft. I am sure the RNZAF would welcome either jet.
Yep, but the USAF, SAF, ROKAF & JASDF also use the F-15 in the region as well and the USAF undoubtedly will base EXs in the region too.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...

You have to look at how the RDN (Royal Danish Navy) have been operating them and they aren't lying about the crew numbers. I have been following the Iver Huitfeld Class and Absalon Class closely for at least eight years.

The AH140 is basically the OMT F370 which is the Iver Huitfeld Class. There are important differences between the Iver Huitfeld and Absalon Classes and most other warships, and that is their design philosophy and how they were built. They were designed by commercial designers and the RDN to be built in a commercial yard so there are aspects of commercial ships and shipbuilding in them. They used the automation, IPSM and placement of cabling, hosing and piping in easy access channelling in companionways etc., instead of being hidden behind bulkheads, deckheads, and underneath decks. It makes for easier and quicker maintenance and everything is also plug and play. Consoles on the bridge and in the CIC are all multi use and open architecture, so can be used for for different mission modules. Whilst in RDN the Ivers are AD frigates, they can be fitted with floating machinery mounts for ASW specialisation. In RDN they are also STANFLEX capable which is a RDN specific modular armaments system.

IF we were to go down the Ivers path for the RNZN, then we would have to change their fitout to suit our purposes because we have a different operating environment. I would stay with the same basic machinery because they are quick. Maybe we could look at installing a CODLAG system instead of the current CODAD. We may need to lengthen the ship but a 5 -10m plug shouldn't be to much of a problem. The beauty about the design is that its adaptable. Next we could take the fitout from the RCN CSC and install that on the ship, less some of the RCN options and add some of our own. For example we wouldn't require the ESSM Blk II because we already have Sea Ceptor, which the RCN are acquiring as well. We would have to acquire a CIWS and there are a couple around that are far better than Phalanx. The RCN are fitting the SPY-7 radar and the latest AEGIS and we should do the same. The CMS they use is the same as ours. Babcocks don't own yards so we can build the hulls and install the machinery anywhere we like. We could then ship them here and undertake the fitouts here if we wanted to. On paper we should be able to acquire four of these vessels for the same or less price than three Hunter Class frigates built in Australia, City Class Frigates built in UK, or CSC frigates built in Canada, yet have a GP frigate of similar capability and quality.
That looks as if all you'll have left from the original is the hull, & even that will have a plug. Why change the propulsion, for example? IIRC CODAD was chosen for cost & range, among other reasons. Aren't they desirable for the RNZN, which will have to work within a tight budget & is a long way from anywhere else?

Babcocks don't own yards so we can build the hulls and install the machinery anywhere we like
Babcock Marine owns the Rosyth shipyard in Scotland, where Type 31 is being built. But the Poles will build their AH140s in Poland.
 

Aerojoe

Member
I’m sorry to rain on parades but until the major opposition party starts talking about major lifts in Defence budget then all of this ACT talk is just that. I cannot imagine a first term National/ACT government will be in any position to lift Defence remember they are lowering taxes and reducing government spend as a priority - that will be their platform with the electorate. Add to that, Health is only becoming more expensive as more hospitals fail the earthquake code.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If the NZ defence budget increases to around 2% or thereabouts then talk of an ACF and 4 frigates is probably too ambitious.
I think priorities would have to be determined and choices made and IMHO NZ’s strategic and geographic reality dictates that the RNZN is clearly that priority.
The navy is a “must have” the ACF is a “nice to” have.
There are many ways in which NZ AirPower can be increased without the treasure and manpower drain of fast jets.
Increasing ISR capability and stand off weapons is just one example.
Neither the NZDF nor the ADF can have full,scope capability and choices must be made.
 
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