NZDF General discussion thread

Gracie1234

Well-Known Member
I like how Wayne Mapp referenced the hi-lo options for the Arrowhead 140, implying that one platform could be used as a frigate and OPV depending on the configuration. That seems to make sense and would be a quicker upgrade path if the situation deteriorates any further. I note that Indonesia has purchased the design and is planning on building 2.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
I like how Wayne Mapp referenced the hi-lo options for the Arrowhead 140, implying that one platform could be used as a frigate and OPV depending on the configuration. That seems to make sense and would be a quicker upgrade path if the situation deteriorates any further. I note that Indonesia has purchased the design and is planning on building 2.
That does raise a question regards rafting the power units. If you excercise that for the combat units do you also do so for the nominal opv's? Benefit in commonakity by doing so on the production line.
 

Xthenaki

Active Member
With the Arrowhead 140 and its flexibility would we be able to order say at least six units and bring the OPV and frigate replacement forward together as one program. The priority would be the top end light frigates (to fulfill our commitments to our allies) and the remaining units would be OPV replacement on a lesser scale than the top frigates but a major improvement on the present OPVs. There are a number of advantages with one program - Cost, Commonality with hull, propulsion electronics etc etc.

The lesser OPVs would be able to be upgraded to light frigate status if required, In actual fact they would be corvettes at least initially. If the GOD decided to go with a UK trade deal the RNZN already uses Babcocks for maintenance. Preference for a block deal would still be South Korea.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Mapp says the NZG needs to be ordering the ANZAC Frigate replacements in this parliamentary term (2020-2023), and previously said it will take 10 years to build them.

(Minor point - would this be correct? Our first original ANZAC's were acquired in less than 10 years, and the RN will be acquiring their new build Type 26's within 10 years. Why would it take NZ so long to receive vessels that are on the production line (or about to start) whether they be T26/T31/FFG-62 etc)?

Anyway, if they were ordered now-ish and delivered in 10 years time-ish (early 2030's), we'd still have two upgraded ANZAC's in the fleet, meaning we'd be back to a 4 Frigate navy again (excellent)!

Which would be fantastic for NZ's defence commitments (and appreciated by our allies) as well as securing naval personnel career paths and hopefully reduce attrition etc .... however I can see GOTD/Treasury having concerns about fleet numbers post 2030 (sure we all here don't but we don't control the purse strings).

It's almost like the main political parties National and Labour need to commit to a 3 or 4 vessel combat fleet (for even the "signal" to do/say so now would be welcomed by our allies, particularly post AUKUS annoucement). I could envisage National supporting this ... but Labour? Unlike Australia we don't have bi-partisan political support when it comes to defence. So how to force Labour to accept change may be the challenge?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I note in the OpEd that he mentions the Type 31 as ordered by the Royal Navy is the "high spec" one similar to the capabilities of the Anzac. I think he needs to do his homework and also recognise that the level of capability the Type 31 is going to generate really is just a big Corvette. If he dug a little further, as it seems he has not exercised his mind on the subject of frigates for awhile and still does not grasp the capabilities required in a highly competitive Indo-Pacific region, we would be looking for a level of capability modernisation a step up from the F-370 Iver class the Arrowhead 140 was based on with respect to the vessels brains, possibly look to the Lockheed Martin Canadian 330CMS, AESA Radar, CEC and EW set up as we have worked with them over the last 5 years on the upgrades, and retain the same general punch of the F-370 per 32 Mk41 but a 127mm mount would be preferable over two 76mm, ExLS instead of the Mk56, NSM instead of Harpoon.

The high - low idea is good based on the one generic platform. There is 80% of commonality between the Iver and the Absalon, probably a basic Type 31 configured for OPV and generic mothership / small scale sealift duties with a ballsy Frigate variant one is not going to get 80%, but there should be decent level to achieve some synergies.

The Babcock tie in is an advantage as they are the Naval Dockyard operators in New Zealand. It could be a good approach to see if Babcock could build the hulls in the UK for both the Multi-Role Frigate variant (x3) and Ocean Patrol Corvette variant (x3) and work with LM Canada as the GFE supplier and lead integrator, but shiplift the hulls to NZ to conduct that work at the Babcock Devonport yard (or new yard at North Port??) which can leave something on the table for NZ Industry and marine engineering workers! Eventually a 7th ship could be built based on Type 32 hull which is likely to be a Littoral Warfare Variant (If it is an Arrowhead 140 hull) as the future Manawanui replacement.

By tying in the domestic integration side across a NZ yard like the Babcock facility, over 6-7 ships, it could be self sustaining as the ships are cycled through their sequential builds and refits. Now that would be of intense interest to a NZ government - and Labour could get over themselves by the fact that it ties in work for NZ workers (which they once were committed too - but seem to have forgotten and only symbolically mention them these days as some sort of old historical memory) mainly Andrew Little's old union, could peak their interest.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think that we may have look at changing how NZDF is funded and apply an approach similar to that of Australia. Rather than it being fixed as a percentage of GDP where it's prone to swings in GDP growth and shrinkage, we should instead fund NZDF for what they require.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Apparently, there is no extra heat from AUKUS according to our lovely DefMin... that probably because it has hit yet...

No 'extra heat': Defence Minister Peeni Henare stays the course on defence spending after Aukus announcement
We're looking at not just that particular announcement, but others in terms of how we continue to make ourselves ready, if you like, for the challenges that we have, not just in the Indo-Pacific but in the broader Pacific.” Emphasis mine.

Our MIA DEFMIN needs to learn basic geography and maybe acquaint himself with a map of the world. For his edification his " broader Pacific" is encompassed by the Indo-Pacific region. He's useless in the job and his grandfather will not be impressed because his actions as MINDEF are inflicting shame and dishonour on his grandfather's mana. There will be utu.

The current government are sticking their heads in the sand and wishing the bad feelings away. They will have feel good new age touchy feely group therapy sessions on it to deal with their hurt feelings and the shock of learning that the real world doesn't live by their sanitised ideological view of it. The other part of the problem is MFAT and its zealous adherence to the religious dogma of trade at all costs, above all else.

I believe that to get them to move pressure has to come from the AUKUS partners and it has to be both behind closed doors, but in public as well. With the public pressure that has to be done in a way not to get the average Kiwi's back up. That's what happened with the American reaction to the anti nuclear legislation back in 1985. George Schultz doing his nut did more to get Kiwis supporting the legislation than its original supporters ever did.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member

Xthenaki

Active Member
We're looking at not just that particular announcement, but others in terms of how we continue to make ourselves ready, if you like, for the challenges that we have, not just in the Indo-Pacific but in the broader Pacific.” Emphasis mine.

Our MIA DEFMIN needs to learn basic geography and maybe acquaint himself with a map of the world. For his edification his " broader Pacific" is encompassed by the Indo-Pacific region. He's useless in the job and his grandfather will not be impressed because his actions as MINDEF are inflicting shame and dishonour on his grandfather's mana. There will be utu.

The current government are sticking their heads in the sand and wishing the bad feelings away. They will have feel good new age touchy feely group therapy sessions on it to deal with their hurt feelings and the shock of learning that the real world doesn't live by their sanitised ideological view of it. The other part of the problem is MFAT and its zealous adherence to the religious dogma of trade at all costs, above all else.

I believe that to get them to move pressure has to come from the AUKUS partners and it has to be both behind closed doors, but in public as well. With the public pressure that has to be done in a way not to get the average Kiwi's back up. That's what happened with the American reaction to the anti nuclear legislation back in 1985. George Schultz doing his nut did more to get Kiwis supporting the legislation than its original supporters ever did.
No '.extraheat' Defence Minister Peeni Henare stays the course on defence spending after Aukus announcement
Henare is a shocker. He is totally immersed with the problems of Covid 19 and hence not interested in the Defence portfolio Needs to be put on fatigue to help with his thought processes A new MOD is needed now.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
No '.extraheat' Defence Minister Peeni Henare stays the course on defence spending after Aukus announcement
Henare is a shocker. He is totally immersed with the problems of Covid 19 and hence not interested in the Defence portfolio Needs to be put on fatigue to help with his thought processes A new MOD is needed now.
When I was doing my BCT at Tamaki the GIs had a counselling method for recalcitrant trainees who needed extra encouragement. If running a few laps around the perimeter of the parade ground holding a SLR above your head didn't work, they had three different sized volcanic rocks that liked to be shown the very nice scenery. If that failed there was the 4.5in brass shell case filled with concrete.

In the RNZAF during the 1970s some recalcitrant trainees were counselled by the Corporals out behind the barracks where no witnesses could be found if the sweeping of hangars and any other shit job didn't mend the error of their ways.

Maybe said Minister needs to sweep a few hangars and show a concrete filled 4.5in shell case the sights until he learns and rectifies the error of his ways.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Henare is a shocker. He is totally immersed with the problems of Covid 19 and hence not interested in the Defence portfolio Needs to be put on fatigue to help with his thought processes A new MOD is needed now.
He is actually worse than Mark Burton as a DefMIn and that is saying something. The guy basically had basically zero experience coming into Parliament and only got in because he had a well respected former MP grandfather and WW2 Army Officer Grandfather. He was a last minute choice for his seat as the initial candidate was deselected due to misuse of his employers resources for political purposes.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In the RNZAF during the 1970s some recalcitrant trainees were counselled by the Corporals out behind the barracks where no witnesses could be found if the sweeping of hangars and any other shit job didn't mend the error of their ways.
Yes, had a new mechanic at Ohakea was a bit of a problem, stupid bugger walked into the door at the back of the hangar. Some how managed to hit his face against the door with enough force to some what stun himself. No more problems.
 

Gracie1234

Well-Known Member
The region is getting hotter with a lot of activity, with Taiwain, China and the UK's bid to join the TPP this will put a lot more pressure on the USA. If the USA wants to maintain a leadership position then they also need to lead economically. I am sure this is a message they will be hearing from many countries. Economic security is essential for stability.
It is interesting to see EY laying the blame for the increase in Cybersecurity events at the feet of the boards due to lack of investment. NZ Hearld
I do wonder if our government is sitting back and reconsidering their defence position but are doing everything they can to deny that they are being influenced by the changing world around them for the sake of optics. Just trying to be optimistic. I do agree our defence minister seems out of his depth and COVID is no excuse.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Since we're talking about trade and defence, I'll put this here for anyone interested as it is behind a paywall.


The article is primarily about the Reserve Bank and interest rates and threats to export led economic recovery .... but the bit at the end talks about the following.

Regardless, the Bank's tightening cycle is a political problem for the Beehive. They would probably like a bit less heat on the housing market, but could do without a higher export-crunching dollar.

But ministers have some control here, a higher dollar is one thing, but its effects can be mitigated with a sensible trade policy. Unfortunately, with the rest of the world losing its mind, a sensible trade policy is more challenging now than it ever has been.

You can see this in New Zealand's delicate dance around China's application to join the CPTPP, and the fallout (let's hope the only fallout) from the awkward Aukus nuclear submarine affair. This will continue to be an awkward geopolitical relationship, particularly if we continue to see little appetite from the US to rejoin the CPTPP. New Zealand's security and trade policies are pulling it in two very different directions.

John Key was known to be frustrated that New Zealand's security relationships failed to translate into strong trade relationships. The positive aspect of this is that it forced successive governments to diversify away from old markets towards the new - the negative is our new friends come with compromises of their own.


Either way, as the Reserve Bank drags homeowners, kicking and screaming, towards some kind of new normal, the Beehive and our diplomats will find themselves increasingly dependent on an increasingly uncertain trade environment.
The trade and defence irony to be noted is that NZ's traditional partners (the US and UK) probably want NZ to do more with defence but are not willing to make trading compromises (eg FTA's) in order to make it easier for NZ to be able to fund high cost defence acquisitions from them.

Except for the likes of Australia and Singapore! We essentially have both free trade and good defence relationships with both countries ... this is why I sometimes push (eg) potential Aust/NZ shipbuilding initiates as economically it benefits both countries and strengthens trans-tasman defence "resilience" (and provides a more secure supply chain).

Ditto Singapore - NZ could do more (and it is greatly frustrating that this particular NZG isn't doing much to strengthen the defence relationship - what happened to the idea that NZ would host periodic rotations of SAF combat aircraft as a compromise for not allowing permanent basing)?
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
That was the paradox with John Key. He did invest into the intelligence agencies side of the security relationship, but was glacial in rolling out the defence side with respect to refreshing or developing capabilities - which is what the other countries were after from us. Look how long it took for both the P-3 and C-130H replacements to roll out. Years were wasted dithering when the obvious solutions were staring right in front of them.

You are right about the US and UK, particularly in the sense of the US. Trade has always been transactional not just on the commercial side with them, but equally the defence relationship side - and not just doing the fluffy puppy stuff but being an allies who can add combat weight to the US camp in global affairs.

Two countries 20-25 odd years ago were talking F-16 acquisitions, Chile and New Zealand, were each actively working towards FTA's with the United States - which to NZ has been the holy grail of trade deals. In 2000 NZ rejected 28 F-16's on a lease to buy arrangement for a fraction of their worth. That followed on from the prior rejection of two further Anzacs from Australia - which would have not gone unnoticed in DC. In 2001 NZ committed SF troops into Afghanistan and Chile did not. Both nations at the same time were not in support of the Iraq War in fact Chile was on the UNSC at the time as related in the article link below. NZ did though send a frigate and P-3 to the Middle East in 2003 in a support role and also sent Engineers to Iraq in 2004. Chile was not again was not involved. Prior to the cancellation of the F-16's all the pieces were in place for a NZ-US FTA - alongside Australia. Getting NZ back into the fold after the ANZUS fallout 15 years earlier was on the DC agenda.


Now from the above situation how did Chile, another country with a primary products based economy like we were at the time (created with NZ advisory and NZ private equity investment) manage to get an FTA with the United States?

Answer other than obviously smarter politicians, Chile had acquired ten F-16's under the Peace Puma deal signed off in late 2002. By the next June they had their FTA with the United States.

The salient point is this. By not lease-buying the F-16's and in fact tearing up the contract in 2000 which would have cost New Zealand just $12.5 million per year for all 28 aircraft, plus a one-off NZ$238 million reactivation package which includes spares, support and training plus option to buy the aircraft at the end of the tenth year for around NZ$287 million cost us multiple Billions in trade revenue and opportunities - not to mention job and wealth creation with the United States, plus going further and removing all traces of an air combat capability contribution to the wider then Asian - Pacific security umbrella, on the balance of probabilities killed off any chance of a Free Trade Agreement with the United States.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
That was the paradox with John Key. He did invest into the intelligence agencies side of the security relationship, but was glacial in rolling out the defence side with respect to refreshing or developing capabilities - which is what the other countries were after from us. Look how long it took for both the P-3 and C-130H replacements to roll out. Years were wasted dithering when the obvious solutions were staring right in front of them.

You are right about the US and UK, particularly in the sense of the US. Trade has always been transactional not just on the commercial side with them, but equally the defence relationship side - and not just doing the fluffy puppy stuff but being an allies who can add combat weight to the US camp in global affairs.

Two countries 20-25 odd years ago were talking F-16 acquisitions, Chile and New Zealand, were each actively working towards FTA's with the United States - which to NZ has been the holy grail of trade deals. In 2000 NZ rejected 28 F-16's on a lease to buy arrangement for a fraction of their worth. That followed on from the prior rejection of two further Anzacs from Australia - which would have not gone unnoticed in DC. In 2001 NZ committed SF troops into Afghanistan and Chile did not. Both nations at the same time were not in support of the Iraq War in fact Chile was on the UNSC at the time as related in the article link below. NZ did though send a frigate and P-3 to the Middle East in 2003 in a support role and also sent Engineers to Iraq in 2004. Chile was not again was not involved. Prior to the cancellation of the F-16's all the pieces were in place for a NZ-US FTA - alongside Australia. Getting NZ back into the fold after the ANZUS fallout 15 years earlier was on the DC agenda.


Now from the above situation how did Chile, another country with a primary products based economy like we were at the time (created with NZ advisory and NZ private equity investment) manage to get an FTA with the United States?

Answer other than obviously smarter politicians, Chile had acquired ten F-16's under the Peace Puma deal signed off in late 2002. By the next June they had their FTA with the United States.

The salient point is this. By not lease-buying the F-16's and in fact tearing up the contract in 2000 which would have cost New Zealand just $12.5 million per year for all 28 aircraft, plus a one-off NZ$238 million reactivation package which includes spares, support and training plus option to buy the aircraft at the end of the tenth year for around NZ$287 million cost us multiple Billions in trade revenue and opportunities - not to mention job and wealth creation with the United States, plus going further and removing all traces of an air combat capability contribution to the wider then Asian - Pacific security umbrella, on the balance of probabilities killed off any chance of a Free Trade Agreement with the United States.
Fully agree, the other defence procurement stuff-up was not acquiring the C-17's. This means NZ is still reliant on others for heavy air-lift (which means additional taskings and time-out for these allies).

If NZ could fix this, it would go some way to making a worthwhile contribution to the collective good (apart from the obvious - we should have our own means to transport our own larger assets (eg NH90 and LAV etc) anyway)!
 
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