NZDF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

Well it had to happen. NZDF personnel are voting with their feet because of never-ending deployments to MIQ facilities rather than to what they joined up to do. Like the last time there was a significant exodus of personnel from NZDF, many of these are technical and trades people who can earn far better money in civvy street.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

There is also friction between NZDF personnel in the MIQ facilities and personnel deployed to the Operational HQ because those in the Operational HQ are doing better out of the allowances without having to incur any of the discomforts or risks.

Military at MIQ says HQ bosses get better Covid bonuses

MIQ military staff says pandemic pay is better for those based at NZDF HQ.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[CJohn]

More musings from Wayne Mapp, covering the new cold war, appeasing the dragon and his love of a Coast Guard

New Zealand’s emerging Five Eyes challenge - Defsec

A new cold war has broken out and New Zealand cannot avoid being drawn in. Staying on the right side of history will require smart strategy.

defsec.net.nz

 

[Hone C]

Well it had to happen. NZDF personnel are voting with their feet because of never-ending deployments to MIQ facilities rather than to what they joined up to do.

Same old story. Government taking an already neglected military workforce for granted and running it down doing inappropriate jobs outside its core job role and training.

Get that this may have been an appropriate initial, temporary, response, but it should have been sorted long before now. As you point out, these personnel are not easily replaced.

 

[Hone C]

More musings from Wayne Mapp, covering the new cold war, appeasing the dragon and his love of a Coast Guard

New Zealand’s emerging Five Eyes challenge - Defsec

A new cold war has broken out and New Zealand cannot avoid being drawn in. Staying on the right side of history will require smart strategy.

defsec.net.nz

Not entirely certain that Wayne's proposed four to six strong (read four) fleet of Harry DeWolf OPV's would have the envisioned effect of us "being taken seriously" by Australia, FEYES, FPDA or China tbh.

I think he has the numbers right, but the platform wrong.

 

[MrConservative]

More musings from Wayne Mapp, covering the new cold war, appeasing the dragon and his love of a Coast Guard

New Zealand’s emerging Five Eyes challenge - Defsec

A new cold war has broken out and New Zealand cannot avoid being drawn in. Staying on the right side of history will require smart strategy.

defsec.net.nz

More comedy gold from Mapp. He now want six Arctic Patrol Vessels. It is so laughable on so many levels.

On the more informed and relevant side of the magazine the article by Chris Penk MP recognising that we are are already fighting in the grey zone is excellent and is crystal clear what side of the fence he is on.

I’ve argued previously that all defence decisions in this nation need to be viewed through an allies’ interoperability lens.

A self-fulfilling prophecy will continue to be told otherwise: if defence does only certain things, defence policies will be geared towards only those things, and then only those things become do-able by defence. As the old saying goes, if all you’ve got is a hammer then everything looks like a nail.

 

[MrConservative]

Not entirely certain that Wayne's proposed four to six strong (read four) fleet of Harry DeWolf OPV's would have the envisioned effect of us "being taken seriously" by Australia, FEYES, FPDA or China tbh.

I think he has the numbers right, but the platform wrong.

I doubt Penk takes him seriously. Penk being a former Anzac driver and sardine sailor with the RAN understands the maritime domain in the 21st century context and Wayne once a part-time territorial officer 35 years ago and part-time defence minister over a decade ago masquerading as Phil Goff in a blue crimpolene suit does not. Did not even in the 1990's where he still strategically lives.

 

[Gracie1234]

Looks like he wants to further disarm the country so that we have limited options and therefore can not be drawn into the potential conflict while hiding as part of the FPDA. That group is not likely to be impressed with NZ reducing capabilities either.

 

[ngatimozart]

Looks like he wants to further disarm the country so that we have limited options and therefore can not be drawn into the potential conflict while hiding as part of the FPDA. That group is not likely to be impressed with NZ reducing capabilities either.

I think that it's long past the time that he should have retired into his dotage.

 

[MrConservative]

Looks like he wants to further disarm the country so that we have limited options and therefore can not be drawn into the potential conflict while hiding as part of the FPDA. That group is not likely to be impressed with NZ reducing capabilities either.

I place the relationship with China at the highest possible order. Wayne Mapp, 2009

Speech by Hon Dr Wayne Mapp | New Zealand Contemporary China Research Centre | Victoria University of Wellington

www.wgtn.ac.nz

Here is the thing I don't understand. Back in 2009 when he made this speech Mapp as defence Minister spoke of the need to maintain a frigate capability. It was just two ships by the way and at the time he looked fondly at the LCS. But hear we are 12 years later, as a nation that thrives or dies economically on trade access (and China is just one market Wayne and one which is getting a tad unpopular which does raise the question of market entry sustainability) across our sea lines of communication, during this time of rising strategic competition and disruption, he no longer wants Frigates it seems, but a 17 knot AOPS with a 25mm Bushmaster per the Antarctic Treaty rules? A vessel that when one examines the RFI indicates that this is the vessel for the SOPV role is not quite what they are after (So Wayne writes an article and seemingly has not read the RFI). Let's say there is a Timor 2.0, so under Wayne strategic sentiments we would use the AOPS vessel to escort the deployed Canterbury and Aotearoa into theatre? If there is a requirement to escort a large container vessel with critical supplies though sea lanes of concern, the HMNZS Mapp AOPS is the ship for the job, likewise a 10000km journey from Japan to escort the bulk of New Zealand's strategic oil reserve here safely during a time global unravelling. It's actually embarrassing more than anything.

 

[Gracie1234]

While China is our largest individual trading partner, it is not larger than Australia, USA and Japan combined. Also, the mix of that trade has a different value. To China we export a higher percentage of non-value-added goods which have low productivity and do not increase our industrial base. While to those other markets we export more value-added goods and services. As another example, Rocket Lab, a partnership with a USA company that is in high technology and is worth more than our wine industry. This has also provided NZ with a seat at the space table, exporting wood logs to China does not compare. For context, our relationship with China is very important to us and i hope it will improve but the reality is the world needs to adjust to this new confident power who is doing what large powers do.

 

[MrConservative]

Market entry access to the PRC is becoming more and more variable and adhoc.

China's ban on two Sealord plants having 'significant impact'

Sealord CEO said the suspension had cost the company $3 million.

www.nzherald.co.nz

I have always said that defence is just as much about economic sovereignty than it is territorial and the myopic all in on one market as the holy grail to economic salvation is as stupid as constabulary and peacekeeping oriented defence force. When the two are together which seems to be the direction that some again wish to return to in the context of an increasing geo-strategic temperature in the Indo-Pacific, that goes beyond stupid and into madness.

 

[KiwiRob]

More musings from Wayne Mapp, covering the new cold war, appeasing the dragon and his love of a Coast Guard

New Zealand’s emerging Five Eyes challenge - Defsec

A new cold war has broken out and New Zealand cannot avoid being drawn in. Staying on the right side of history will require smart strategy.

defsec.net.nz

He didn't mention Coast Guard in the article at all.

 

[KiwiRob]

I place the relationship with China at the highest possible order. Wayne Mapp, 2009

Speech by Hon Dr Wayne Mapp | New Zealand Contemporary China Research Centre | Victoria University of Wellington

www.wgtn.ac.nz

Here is the thing I don't understand. Back in 2009 when he made this speech Mapp as defence Minister spoke of the need to maintain a frigate capability. It was just two ships by the way and at the time he looked fondly at the LCS. But hear we are 12 years later, as a nation that thrives or dies economically on trade access (and China is just one market Wayne and one which is getting a tad unpopular which does raise the question of market entry sustainability) across our sea lines of communication, during this time of rising strategic competition and disruption, he no longer wants Frigates it seems, but a 17 knot AOPS with a 25mm Bushmaster per the Antarctic Treaty rules? A vessel that when one examines the RFI indicates that this is the vessel for the SOPV role is not quite what they are after (So Wayne writes an article and seemingly has not read the RFI). Let's say there is a Timor 2.0, so under Wayne strategic sentiments we would use the AOPS vessel to escort the deployed Canterbury and Aotearoa into theatre? If there is a requirement to escort a large container vessel with critical supplies though sea lanes of concern, the HMNZS Mapp AOPS is the ship for the job, likewise a 10000km journey from Japan to escort the bulk of New Zealand's strategic oil reserve here safely during a time global unravelling. It's actually embarrassing more than anything.

Where does he even mention frigates in his article, he doesn't. I think you're reading too much into what he is saying, putting words in his mouth. The Protector OPV's will need replacing, increasing the patrol fleet makes sense, replacing them more ice capable vessels makes even more sense, if it's HDW or another design does it matter?

Jan Mayen's would be a nice addition. I doubt the RNZN is ever going to be at the pointy end of any conflict so why build vessels for that scenario? We should be building more vessels for the jobs the navy does more often, fisheries patrol, SAR, HDR.

 

[ngatimozart]

Where does he even mention frigates in his article, he doesn't. I think you're reading too much into what he is saying, putting words in his mouth. The Protector OPV's will need replacing, increasing the patrol fleet makes sense, replacing them more ice capable vessels makes even more sense, if it's HDW or another design does it matter?

Jan Mayen's would be a nice addition. I doubt the RNZN is ever going to be at the pointy end of any conflict so why build vessels for that scenario? We should be building more vessels for the jobs the navy does more often, fisheries patrol, SAR, HDR.

View attachment 48444

FYI Mr C knows Wayne Mapp. Secondly this isn't the only time that Wayne Mapp has gone down this route. He's been spouting this line for the last few years in various fora.

Now to your next point. At what point don't you understand NZ's SLOC? You have been on here long enough to know that our SLOC are our lifeblood and extend far beyond the 200 nm EEZ of all of the Realm of NZ. You also know that we have a defence Treaty with Australia that is separate to the ANZUS Treaty. We also have obligations under the FPDA. HADR, SAR etc., are only secondary roles for the NZDF and the RNZN. Like any military force their primary and most important role is defence - preparation for warfighting and warfighting when required by the nation and government.

Then there is NZ itself. What is it? It is an island maritime nation that is the most isolated nation in the world being 1,000 nm from its nearest neighbour. It's area of maritime interest covers approximately ¼ of the globes oceanic surface. So you want a navy equipped with a minimal number of glorified OPVs to project NZ's interests and protect and defend NZ from potential near level state aggressors in a period of increasing regional tensions? That type of thinking resulted in NZ being woefully underprepared for WW2 and we are in a far worse state now capability wise relative to January 1939.

Finally, you know the rules. Next time make sure that you post a link for the image. However if it is one of your own please say so in the post. That way misunderstandings are avoided.

 

[KiwiRob]

FYI Mr C knows Wayne Mapp. Secondly this isn't the only time that Wayne Mapp has gone down this route. He's been spouting this line for the last few years in various fora.

Now to your next point. At what point don't you understand NZ's SLOC? You have been on here long enough to know that our SLOC are our lifeblood and extend far beyond the 200 nm EEZ of all of the Realm of NZ. You also know that we have a defence Treaty with Australia that is separate to the ANZUS Treaty. We also have obligations under the FPDA. HADR, SAR etc., are only secondary roles for the NZDF and the RNZN. Like any military force their primary and most important role is defence - preparation for warfighting and warfighting when required by the nation and government.

Then there is NZ itself. What is it? It is an island maritime nation that is the most isolated nation in the world being 1,000 nm from its nearest neighbour. It's area of maritime interest covers approximately ¼ of the globes oceanic surface. So you want a navy equipped with a minimal number of glorified OPVs to project NZ's interests and protect and defend NZ from potential near level state aggressors in a period of increasing regional tensions? That type of thinking resulted in NZ being woefully underprepared for WW2 and we are in a far worse state now capability wise relative to January 1939.

Finally, you know the rules. Next time make sure that you post a link for the image. However if it is one of your own please say so in the post. That way misunderstandings are avoided.

Yes I understand the SLOC but a couple of frigates are not going to be able to defend them or provide escorts, we also don't have a fleet of NZ flagged commercial vessels to escort/defend. If a major conflict happens in the Pacific you can bet you arse on it the shipping companies will reroute there ships and not go anywhere near the conflict zone, effectively cutting us off.

You're also not reading the electorate, people in NZ are not interested in defense, they just aren't, it wouldn't gain either of the two main political parties any additional seats if they decided to go hard on defence, it would probably tank them. National are basically unelectable at the moment, they aren't going to make any waves and Labour don't need to upset their majority spending money on big ticket items like 3-4 ANZAC replacements, so they won't.

Anyone who has the ability to invade NZ isn't going to be deterred by a couple of frigates and 4 P8's, you know this as well as I do. Jan Mayens are 9800 ton, 132m long vessels, 4-6 of those are IMO a lot more useful in our maritime area of interest and where I see the Navy's main role than a couple of frigates. I see HDAR and SAR as the primary roll for the Navy, our pointy end are the P8's which we won't have enough off and the SAS.

 

[Arclighy]

Yes I understand the SLOC but a couple of frigates are not going to be able to defend them or provide escorts, we also don't have a fleet of NZ flagged commercial vessels to escort/defend. If a major conflict happens in the Pacific you can bet you arse on it the shipping companies will reroute there ships and not go anywhere near the conflict zone, effectively cutting us off.

You're also not reading the electorate, people in NZ are not interested in defense, they just aren't, it wouldn't gain either of the two main political parties any additional seats if they decided to go hard on defence, it would probably tank them. National are basically unelectable at the moment, they aren't going to make any waves and Labour don't need to upset their majority spending money on big ticket items like 3-4 ANZAC replacements, so they won't.

Anyone who has the ability to invade NZ isn't going to be deterred by a couple of frigates and 4 P8's, you know this as well as I do. Jan Mayens are 9800 ton, 132m long vessels, 4-6 of those are IMO a lot more useful in our maritime area of interest and where I see the Navy's main role than a couple of frigates. I see HDAR and SAR as the primary roll for the Navy, our pointy end are the P8's which we won't have enough off and the SAS.

Surely having a couple of Frigates and complimentary war fighting assets are better than nothing in the event of SLOC being threatened or worse. Who would you have defend NZ's interests in that situation, if not a properly equipped NZDF? l actually can't see that what you are proposing is in fact anything like a Navy.

 

[Xthenaki]

Yes I understand the SLOC but a couple of frigates are not going to be able to defend them or provide escorts, we also don't have a fleet of NZ flagged commercial vessels to escort/defend. If a major conflict happens in the Pacific you can bet you arse on it the shipping companies will reroute there ships and not go anywhere near the conflict zone, effectively cutting us off.

You're also not reading the electorate, people in NZ are not interested in defense, they just aren't, it wouldn't gain either of the two main political parties any additional seats if they decided to go hard on defence, it would probably tank them. National are basically unelectable at the moment, they aren't going to make any waves and Labour don't need to upset their majority spending money on big ticket items like 3-4 ANZAC replacements, so they won't.

Anyone who has the ability to invade NZ isn't going to be deterred by a couple of frigates and 4 P8's, you know this as well as I do. Jan Mayens are 9800 ton, 132m long vessels, 4-6 of those are IMO a lot more useful in our maritime area of interest and where I see the Navy's main role than a couple of frigates. I see HDAR and SAR as the primary roll for the Navy, our pointy end are the P8's which we won't have enough off and the SAS.

Paragraph 2 and youre assessment of the political spectrum IU would agree with.

The last paragraph I believe is fundamentally flawed. = For the NZ defence force we need both the Air force and Navy as our primary units. Without frigates or at least corvettes there would be no protection for "Aotearoa" to fulfill her role. Frigates are essential to maintain support to our alliances.
Jan Mayens are not suitable vessels for the tropics or sub=tropics. I would like to see corvettes replace the current OPV:s and an Icebreaker/Research vessel for our initial SOPV. It would be a great asset for NZ to have the capability to open a passage to McMurdo Base and as support for "Aotearoa"when she visits there. Jan Mayens could be added after assessment by the Norwegan Navy and their size and potential could be compelling. But at the moment I feel we need some more teeth on the northern and Nor-eastern flanks of NZ to counter potential Asian threats.

 

[KiwiRob]

Surely having a couple of Frigates and complimentary war fighting assets are better than nothing in the event of SLOC being threatened or worse. Who would you have defend NZ's interests in that situation, if not a properly equipped NZDF? l actually can't see that what you are proposing is in fact anything like a Navy.

To properly defend ourselves we would need a lot more than 2 frigates, 4 P8's, and an army with 2 combat battalions, unless we are going to stump up the big dollars and significantly increase our warfighting capability there is no point in even attempting to defend ourselves. Our primary defence is our isolation not whatever roadblocks we could put up.

 

[KiwiRob]

Paragraph 2 and youre assessment of the political spectrum IU would agree with.

The last paragraph I believe is fundamentally flawed. = For the NZ defence force we need both the Air force and Navy as our primary units. Without frigates or at least corvettes there would be no protection for "Aotearoa" to fulfill her role. Frigates are essential to maintain support to our alliances.
Jan Mayens are not suitable vessels for the tropics or sub=tropics. I would like to see corvettes replace the current OPV:s and an Icebreaker/Research vessel for our initial SOPV. It would be a great asset for NZ to have the capability to open a passage to McMurdo Base and as support for "Aotearoa"when she visits there. Jan Mayens could be added after assessment by the Norwegan Navy and their size and potential could be compelling. But at the moment I feel we need some more teeth on the northern and Nor-eastern flanks of NZ to counter potential Asian threats.

I don't see it as flawed, we will never have enough assets available to the Airforce and Navy to defend ourselves, also who would we need to defend ourselves against, the Chinese aren't a threat, the US isn't a threat and I'd happily let the Aussie's in to run us, we should have joined the Federation back in 1901.

 

[MrConservative]

Yes I understand the SLOC but a couple of frigates are not going to be able to defend them or provide escorts,

But they add weight to the strategic umbrella in the wider maritime domain.

we also don't have a fleet of NZ flagged commercial vessels to escort/defend. If a major conflict happens in the Pacific you can bet you arse on it the shipping companies will reroute there ships and not go anywhere near the conflict zone, effectively cutting us off.

If we are cut off from being able to import critical items that are needed to continue to exist as a functional socio-economy, you can sure as hell bet that the NZ public will definitely be asking why these vital goods cannot get here, definitely will be become defence minded (Modern societies can ground to a halt very quickly with a scarcity of certain imported items - you can see this in a very mild case at present through the CV19 pandemic what happens when delays of critical manufacturing/bio-medical goods are scarce. Those non NZ flagged vessels even if re-routed away from a conflict zone to eventually end up in New Zealand, will only end up here if we play our part in the wider mutually beneficial maritime security role in escorting them. Besides it is not the cargo vessels which are the primary concern - it is what's inside those vessels that matters. Even if there are no available merchant vessels we still need those very critical goods (to keep existing as a functional socio-economy). If it got so bad we would have to rely on our own minimal sealift and a tanker capability, they of course will need some sort of credible surface combatant capability to escort them.

Anyone who has the ability to invade NZ isn't going to be deterred by a couple of frigates and 4 P8's, you know this as well as I do.

But they are deterred, including actions in the grey zone, which are more likely than the old invasion trope, by a New Zealand as a maritime nation (that is reliant on free and open trade within the international legal framework) playing a valid contribution into the wider security umbrella and two frigates are part of that calculation.

Jan Mayens are 9800 ton, 132m long vessels, 4-6 of those are IMO a lot more useful in our maritime area of interest and where I see the Navy's main role than a couple of frigates. I see HDAR and SAR as the primary roll for the Navy, our pointy end are the P8's which we won't have enough off and the SAS.

And you are welcome to have those views.