NZDF General discussion thread

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
You may be overestimating Australias’s interest in NZ’s approach to both foreign affairs and defence. I’m afraid our leaders may have written you off as contributors or serious players, other than possibly in having some influence in the Pacific Islands.
Relationships between the current NZ and OZ government at the political level are strained somewhat at present. Go back a few years and they were the best they had been for years. Then there was huge respect particularly when Key was around who worked very well with all OZ PM's Rudd, Gillard, Abbott and particularly Turnbull. I'd say that the relationship between Key and Morrison would be much stronger than it is with Jacindarella. She is more interested in having Ed Sheridan sing at her wedding and getting on the cover of woman's magazines than him and I'm sure thinks she is a çlueless, shallow celebrity lightweight. At the officials level things are better with respect to diplomacy (outside of the PRC issue which is not great) - but they compartmentalise that and coordinate a lot closer than other countries. With FVEY's everyone is adults and they have to be and with Trade they continue to tag team when taking on EU / UK. Defence though at the officials level I would classify it as regret on the OZ side and embarrassment on the NZ side.

However the biggest issue really is the cavalier attitude of the majority of the New Zealand people to the outside world and the intellectual weakness of the local media and their pundits. One of the things that is of interest to me as it has become apparent and have not got time to explain is that the current New Zealand Labour governments cultivated relationship with the media and the political punditry class is very similar to the Blair-Alastair Campbell playbook. Cindy with her Comms degree and photocopy girl in Clarke's 9th floor did work at No.10 Downing street for a bit and obviously picked up a few things doing photocopying over there.
 

chis73

Active Member
I thought I would try to do a quick guessimate of where things are currently at with respect to the $20b capital expenditure plan. Don't shoot me if it isn't perfect. I've counted projects since about 2016 (when the National Govt announced the 15-year plan), and haven't included anything post-2030.

Expenditure so far:
P-8 $2.346b
C-130J $1.521b
Defence estate $1.7b
Aotearoa $0.493b
Bushmaster $0.102b
NH90 Sim $0.043b
MARS rifles $0.059b
Frigate upgrade $0.594b
Manawanui $0.103b
Underwater Intelligence & Surveillance Upgrade $0.036b

Total $7b

Still to come:
Strategic Air Mobility $0.3b - 0.6b
Maritime Helicopter Replacement > $1b
Network Enabled Army - ISR $0.1b - 0.3b
Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel $0.3b - 0.6b
Enhanced Sealift Vessel > $1b
Enhanced Maritime Awareness Capability $0.3b - 0.6b
Aviation Compliance upgrade $0.1b - 0.3b
King Air replacement (lease renewal)?
Protector fleet comms upgrade $0.025b - 0.05b
ANZAC frigate comms upgrade $0.05b - 0.1b
OPV replacement $0.6b - 1.0b
IED countermeasures $0.025b - 0.05b
Garrison vehicle fleet $0.1b - $0.3b
Network Enabled Army - CATG $0.1b - 0.3b
Network Enabled Army - Sustained CATG $0.3b - 0.6b
Domestic EOD $0.025b - 0.05b
LAV3 replacement $0.3b -0.6b

Total: $4.625b+

Big ticket item not included: Frigate replacement

PS: Oh, and put me down for 'From Russia With Love' as best JB movie. Got to have Connery surely?
 
Last edited:

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
I thought I would try to do a quick guessimate of where things are currently at with respect to the $20b capital expenditure plan. Don't shoot me if it isn't perfect. I've counted projects since about 2016 (when the National Govt announced the 15-year plan), and haven't included anything post-2030.

Expenditure so far:
P-8 $2.346b
C-130J $1.521b
Defence estate $1.7b
Aotearoa $0.493b
Bushmaster $0.102b
NH90 Sim $0.043b
MARS rifles $0.059b
Frigate upgrade $0.594b
Manawanui $0.103b
Underwater Intelligence & Surveillance Upgrade $0.036b

Total $7b

Still to come:
Strategic Air Mobility $0.3b - 0.6b
Maritime Helicopter Replacement > $1b
Network Enabled Army - ISR $0.1b - 0.3b
Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel $0.3b - 0.6b
Enhanced Sealift Vessel > $1b
Enhanced Maritime Awareness Capability $0.3b - 0.6b
Aviation Compliance upgrade $0.1b - 0.3b
King Air replacement (lease renewal)?
Protector fleet comms upgrade $0.025b - 0.05b
ANZAC frigate comms upgrade $0.05b - 0.1b
OPV replacement $0.6b - 1.0b
IED countermeasures $0.025b - 0.05b
Garrison vehicle fleet $0.1b - $0.3b
Network Enabled Army - CATG $0.1b - 0.3b
Network Enabled Army - Sustained CATG $0.3b - 0.6b
Domestic EOD $0.025b - 0.05b
LAV3 replacement $0.3b -0.6b

Total: $4.625b+

Big ticket item not included: Frigate replacement
Re lavs - plus funds from..... Ahmmmm possible sale of 21 ish say.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
And the $1.7b for base infrastructure is coming out of that nominal $20b too Chis73.

Bond movie ..... all the Connery ones were good but most memorable scene is when Ursula Andrews clad in a white bikini emerges from the sea with a that hunting knife slung around her waist. :D
 

Gracie1234

Well-Known Member
This all quite interesting since they had already removed the Frigate replacement from the $20B. I imagine they will just delay some items that way we can not say that it was canceled. Just kick the can down the road some more. It would of been good if they had taken a que from Australia and added an additional $10B. I do not see any UAV as part of the funding plan chis73. I am still concerned that there seems to be no serious effort to enhance the Cyber capabilities. Not quite sure were we would even see that, which department would deliver the capability, GCSB.
 

chis73

Active Member
Mr C: Aye - I've included the $1.7b already as 'Defence Estate', though I am not sure how much of it, if any, has actually been spent yet.

Gracie1234: The UAV project was post-2030 so I didn't include it (along with a few other projects, eg. HMNZS Canterbury replacement). The 2019 DCP does mention a cyber security project (p.40), but it was less than $25m (and not due till 2025)
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Burton will be remembered for all the wrong reasons!
Burton will not be remembered for all the wrong reasons, but for all the right reasons, which are that he was weak, useless and just was Helens yes man so he could pocket a ministers salary.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I was meant to write more about the Army's expansion to 6000 personnel. To be clear I hope there are no cuts and the expansion continues as originally planned. (I was simply pointing out it is an easy target to cut funding).

As per RNZ article DefMin Henare is quoted as saying "We want to be stimulating our economy and how do we do that in the defence portfolio? ....". Well increasing the Army is one way of doing so, with flow on effects for the civilian service industries that would also increase to support the Army expansion.

I also disagree with the Manning and Buchanan View from Afar video/webcast in which they suggest the Army personnel numbers are too high in relation to the other services and with NZ being a maritime nation. I would say the planned Army numbers and expansions are about right (to plug gaps), if anything in an ideal world that 3rd Battalion would be raised. Why? Lessons (not) learned from East Timor to sustain a Battalion overseas (SE Asia or wider Indo-Pacific etc). To ensure NZ could contribute troops to support and sustain them if there are stability issues in the South Pacific, as well as concurrently at home (eg covid support, civil defence emergencies etc). I'd also go as far as suggesting permanently basing a Company in Australia as a type of ready reaction force (which could be rotated or sustained by the other Battalion's Company's based in NZ).

We saw Australia expand its Army during the Howard government years (IIRC), post 9/11 and ME taskings, and despite speculation here on a 3rd Battalion at the time it never eventuated. Look at their capabilities now, and their amphibious capability for their LHD's.

But back to Manning and Buchanan, they (and other posters here) are quite correct NZ is a maritime nation and should have a maritime focus, I agree, but that should be done by raising the Army to 6000 (at the very least), so they can also support maritime taskings better, as well as their land based taskings concurrently ..... but also expanding the RNZN and RNZAF!

Their personnel numbers are still around or less than what was planned post WW2, which was a ridiculous cut-back to set up the post war Navy and Air Force. Although it won't happen under this government, this is what NZ should be aspiring to in the longer term with defence expenditure rising to at least 2% of GDP like Australia (which is actually aiming higher). That would give the NZDF some of its credibility back in terms of new additional or expanded capabilities of the existing. But I know getting the politicians to support this is another thing altogether.
I am going to disagree with you on this. The NZ concept of the Army has always been a historical one that is a hangover from the British. Even though Britain is an island nation their army has always been a continental army because it's always fought the French, Spanish, Germans, Dutch and Russians on the European continent. It fought the US in two wars in North America and lost both. NZ’s big wars were the NZ Land Wars, Boer War, WW1, WW2, the Korean War and the Vietnam War. For five of those wars the army was an expeditionary force. In never undertook an amphibious landing using solely NZ resources - we had none. The army has little to offer in the maritime defence of NZ until either there is an imminent physical invasion or landings are to be made on hostile shores. The rest of it is actually RNZN and RNZAF because it's there capabilities that will be required to surveil and if necessary conduct strike missions at a distance. The army cannot do that, and that is why it does not make sense expanding the army.

That is why the army has to be completely restructured from the top to the bottom. It has to to be given a completely new focus and get away from the continental system mindset that it is in. It's still fighting the last war it was in and not the next. Sometimes I think that it still believes that it's still the 2nd NZ Armoured Division. Currently it is built around a Light Infantry Force. I don't have a problem with that, but why does it hang on to towed artillery which are the opposite to the mobility of light infantry. Towed artillery require time to set up before they can fire, are highly vulnerable to counter battery fire, and have a high field support dependency.

The army should be amphibious orientated with its people , structure and equipment being far less siloed than what it currently is. I believe that its units should be all arms units without the siloing of corps. Much like a ships crew or an air force sqn. For example everyone in a battalion regardless of trade belongs to that battalion. It needs to change its basic unit structure from being a single trade / branch unit to being a multitrade unit that has all of the required trades fully integrated into it. It needs to be leaner and meaner.

1NZSFR doesn't require modifications, however it does require better rotary wing assets for support.

The rest of the army, the pointy end is the hard bit. IF I was running things I would convert it more towards a marine type force with its LAV III replaced with the USMC ACV fitted with the turret from the Aussie CRV complete with the 30 mm and Spike LR missile. Why that combination? Because the turret and weapons systems are amongst the best on the market and the Aussies will be license building the gun ammo and the Spike missiles. So we don't have to go far for resupply. The turrets will also be fully supported within Australia. Again we don't have to go halfway across the world for the finicky stuff. Put a 105 mm gun turret on some of the top ACV and there's your artillery. Put an AAA and MANPAD launch system turret on some of the vehicles and you have a mobile VSHORAD. All of this plus the combat support services are organic to the combat group. They belong to it completely. Like the marines every soldier is a combat soldier first before anything else. So they can do basic infantry taskings. Doesn't matter if they're gunners, medics, stores, intelligence, comms, cooks etc.

The real question is how big does it need to be? I don't believe that the army requires to be as large as it is now. It could be reduced especially when modern technologies are taken into account and utilised. We definitely don't require MBT capabilities because that day has long gone. But we do have to be adventurous yet cautious in what and how we do things. In my mind three battalions oof infantry is overkill and even two battalions is pushing it. I believe that we can better use the resources we have than recruiting more infantry, especially when infantry aren't able to swim or fly for long distances.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This all quite interesting since they had already removed the Frigate replacement from the $20B. I imagine they will just delay some items that way we can not say that it was canceled. Just kick the can down the road some more. It would of been good if they had taken a que from Australia and added an additional $10B. I do not see any UAV as part of the funding plan chis73. I am still concerned that there seems to be no serious effort to enhance the Cyber capabilities. Not quite sure were we would even see that, which department would deliver the capability, GCSB.
The frigate replacement was intended for the 2030s so wasn't really part of the current 2019 DCP. The current government are going to avoid spending as much money on defence as they possibly can.

I also share your concerns about the cyber security and cyber warfare capabilities being absent. Unfortunately at present we have an opposition to busy eating its own guts rather than doing the job that it's supposed to be doing.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Simon Ewing-Jarvie's lastest podcast. This one on why things are taking so long.

 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
I thought I would try to do a quick guessimate of where things are currently at with respect to the $20b capital expenditure plan. Don't shoot me if it isn't perfect. I've counted projects since about 2016 (when the National Govt announced the 15-year plan), and haven't included anything post-2030.

Expenditure so far:
P-8 $2.346b
C-130J $1.521b
Defence estate $1.7b
Aotearoa $0.493b
Bushmaster $0.102b
NH90 Sim $0.043b
MARS rifles $0.059b
Frigate upgrade $0.594b
Manawanui $0.103b
Underwater Intelligence & Surveillance Upgrade $0.036b

Total $7b

Still to come:
Strategic Air Mobility $0.3b - 0.6b
Maritime Helicopter Replacement > $1b
Network Enabled Army - ISR $0.1b - 0.3b
Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel $0.3b - 0.6b
Enhanced Sealift Vessel > $1b
Enhanced Maritime Awareness Capability $0.3b - 0.6b
Aviation Compliance upgrade $0.1b - 0.3b
King Air replacement (lease renewal)?
Protector fleet comms upgrade $0.025b - 0.05b
ANZAC frigate comms upgrade $0.05b - 0.1b
OPV replacement $0.6b - 1.0b
IED countermeasures $0.025b - 0.05b
Garrison vehicle fleet $0.1b - $0.3b
Network Enabled Army - CATG $0.1b - 0.3b
Network Enabled Army - Sustained CATG $0.3b - 0.6b
Domestic EOD $0.025b - 0.05b
LAV3 replacement $0.3b -0.6b

Total: $4.625b+

Big ticket item not included: Frigate replacement

PS: Oh, and put me down for 'From Russia With Love' as best JB movie. Got to have Connery surely?
Yeah I'd add top-end of range for each project so 'still to come' is closer to $8b so add that to the $7b already spent & then allow for ANZAC Frigate CIWS upgrade, torpedo replacement; and ultimately their replacement and you get around that $20b figure.

Anyways there's been some bloody good discussion here, shows that at least we all seem to understand the risk of what Govt may be considering. They talk about COVID's impact but they also talk about putting Labour's 'stamp' on defence...whatever the fark that means! As far as the opposition standing-up & getting a debate going, good luck with that! Their foil to this Govt, who seem reluctant to spend on things that go bang, is a party who talk defence up but are reluctant to spend on anything so god only knows where to from here. The COVID argument is easy to understand & push to NZ public, the worsening security outlook is much harder to sell and any cuts this mob make will be happily lapped up as $$$ not needing to be spent by the other mob... did the ACF come back during their 9 years...nah!

As for the sheer arrogance that Oz & others will 'understand'...geeesus what a shocking grasp (understanding!) of what Oz etc must be saying behind closed doors! Although TBH I'm fairly certain Oz have long given up on us & moved on with life, and defence! You've only got to see their shopping cart to see that!

So what might they do?...well frankly we will have to wait & see... what worries me is 'Labours stamp'... but once you allow for Govt spin combined with media agendas, it could actually be relatively benign. I have no doubt Jacindarella's and her fairies have had the security situation well & truly conveyed to them in the last 6 months and they will be well aware of what might be expected by Oz etc. They'll certainly push 'soft power'... see they want to expand defence relationships with India, well we could offer them stuff-all, but clearly they could offer us something... so maybe it's a case of finding more parties to bludge off!

Anyway enough politics before I get rapted over the knuckles...but it is relevant to the discussion!

I'm a huge fan of the EMAC project as I believe it offers the first real opportunity for NZ to step-up & take actual responsibility for our own EEZ & SAR areas for the first time probably ever! No it won't just be a defence project but should be defence-led... it will likely be better for having the NZDF (with all it's decades of Air & Sea surveillance experience) being a core party. The Govt talk about not sending defence investment offshore...well then get the RNZAF to operate EMAC patrols with a suitable type rather than outsourcing to a turn-key operator which 98% would likely be Cobham out of Oz. I'd be pissed off if they can the EMAC project as it is, as a whole, very relevant to maritime awareness (ie: security) as well as truly freeing up the P8 for military taskings. I don't have an issue with the NZDF having civvy roles...just not having them override their core military tasks.

Oh well, now the nervous wait until we hear more!

<edit> p.s. remember the talk largely seems to be about the $20B plan... remembering nothing in play seems to be at risk it is all about the future projects...the silver lining with that is this mob may have 2-5 years at most in power so things can change, but so can the security situation so maybe even they themselves will make changes if circumstances dictate it.
 
Last edited:

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I am going to disagree with you on this. The NZ concept of the Army has always been a historical one that is a hangover from the British. Even though Britain is an island nation their army has always been a continental army because it's always fought the French, Spanish, Germans, Dutch and Russians on the European continent. It fought the US in two wars in North America and lost both. NZ’s big wars were the NZ Land Wars, Boer War, WW1, WW2, the Korean War and the Vietnam War. For five of those wars the army was an expeditionary force. In never undertook an amphibious landing using solely NZ resources - we had none. The army has little to offer in the maritime defence of NZ until either there is an imminent physical invasion or landings are to be made on hostile shores. The rest of it is actually RNZN and RNZAF because it's there capabilities that will be required to surveil and if necessary conduct strike missions at a distance. The army cannot do that, and that is why it does not make sense expanding the army.

That is why the army has to be completely restructured from the top to the bottom. It has to to be given a completely new focus and get away from the continental system mindset that it is in. It's still fighting the last war it was in and not the next. Sometimes I think that it still believes that it's still the 2nd NZ Armoured Division. Currently it is built around a Light Infantry Force. I don't have a problem with that, but why does it hang on to towed artillery which are the opposite to the mobility of light infantry. Towed artillery require time to set up before they can fire, are highly vulnerable to counter battery fire, and have a high field support dependency.

The army should be amphibious orientated with its people , structure and equipment being far less siloed than what it currently is. I believe that its units should be all arms units without the siloing of corps. Much like a ships crew or an air force sqn. For example everyone in a battalion regardless of trade belongs to that battalion. It needs to change its basic unit structure from being a single trade / branch unit to being a multitrade unit that has all of the required trades fully integrated into it. It needs to be leaner and meaner.

1NZSFR doesn't require modifications, however it does require better rotary wing assets for support.

The rest of the army, the pointy end is the hard bit. IF I was running things I would convert it more towards a marine type force with its LAV III replaced with the USMC ACV fitted with the turret from the Aussie CRV complete with the 30 mm and Spike LR missile. Why that combination? Because the turret and weapons systems are amongst the best on the market and the Aussies will be license building the gun ammo and the Spike missiles. So we don't have to go far for resupply. The turrets will also be fully supported within Australia. Again we don't have to go halfway across the world for the finicky stuff. Put a 105 mm gun turret on some of the top ACV and there's your artillery. Put an AAA and MANPAD launch system turret on some of the vehicles and you have a mobile VSHORAD. All of this plus the combat support services are organic to the combat group. They belong to it completely. Like the marines every soldier is a combat soldier first before anything else. So they can do basic infantry taskings. Doesn't matter if they're gunners, medics, stores, intelligence, comms, cooks etc.

The real question is how big does it need to be? I don't believe that the army requires to be as large as it is now. It could be reduced especially when modern technologies are taken into account and utilised. We definitely don't require MBT capabilities because that day has long gone. But we do have to be adventurous yet cautious in what and how we do things. In my mind three battalions oof infantry is overkill and even two battalions is pushing it. I believe that we can better use the resources we have than recruiting more infantry, especially when infantry aren't able to swim or fly for long distances.
Interesting ... I'll mull it over for a bit ... good discussions and thanks for the time and effort you put into your thoughts.

So a quickie for now, from my understanding the modern NZ Army (that we have today) came about in the mid 1950's when they became a Regular Force (e.g. professional, full-time, trained etc ... as opposed to previous times and wars when citizens were enlisted when greater numbers were required etc). The genesis being the Manila Pact, which created SEATO, for the defence of South-East Asia, of which NZ contributed an Air Force ground-attack then bomber squadron, a Frigate and the SAS, whom were replaced by the Army Regular Force (Light Infantry). NZ's defence strategy was that of Forward Defence, in Asia, and based in Malaysia, Singapore and Borneo (i.e. the "Malayan Emergency" and "Confrontation"), alongside the Australians and UK etc (then later in the "Vietnam war" with Australia, the USA and other regional countries).

So I think what you are referring to, in terms of Light Infantry, towed artillery (and even the NZ Army's medium tanks and APC's, although never deployed into SE Asia etc), harks back to that, in terms of the structure, that we still have today.

(Which say, Australia still appears to be structured similarly except that it has greater personnel numbers and other, vastly greater and more deadly capabilities ... and they are now moving into amphibious operations too - lessons learnt from East Timor etc).

Perhaps then, when the RNZIR Infantry Regiment departed Singapore (after 20-odd years based there) in 1989 (and the NZ Army became entirely NZ based) that it could have been time for a rethink in terms of structure?

But maybe not, due to global changes. IIRC(?) the NZ govt's view at the time in 1989 was that it could send back the NZ Army into SE Asia if required, hence retaining the same structure (although has not been required ... and as the likes of Singapore and Malaysia are now highly capable in their own right). Then the Cold War ended (so how to define change ... because who is/was now the "enemy", at the time etc)?

I think two other significant events have put paid to any potential restructuring of the Army (in the near past).

1. NZ being suspended from ANZUS. Perhaps if the US took a more considered approach and kept the NZDF in the fold, even with the end of the Cold War (and the lack of perceived need to base ANZUS troops in SE Asia), that "peacetime" training and doctrine in the 1990's could have evolved to a more maritime (Marines) type focus? That is, having agile forces that could be deployed by sea and air? Seeing there was no real need for "boots on the ground" in the wider Asia or Indo-Pacific, at that time.

2. 9/11. Which saw NZ come back into the fold with the US (as Friends, not Allies), which saw the NZ Army deploy to Afghanistan as "boots on the ground" as part of a hearts and minds campaign (the Provincial Reconstruction Teams etc) and Special Forces etc.

TBC (oops hit a 1000 word limit)!
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Part 2:
So here we are today. What's changed? An emboldened CCP, now with greater capabilities and resources (and greater US efforts in countering these), including potential of instability in areas such as the SCS, affecting a range of neighbouring countries, and/or potentially Taiwan. Potential of instability in the wider South Pacific (although more civil than military). Etc. There is an inherent Maritime dimension though.

So is the existing NZ Army "light-infantry" concept still relevant? The answer may be "yes" if NZ is needing to stabalise the South Pacific, with boots on the ground to maintain order. In South East Asia itself? Maybe "no" because Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines etc, have their own standing Army's (and Navies and Air Forces etc). But what say other areas near Australia like say West Papua? That could potentially be a "yes".

But, if we follow the ADF's lead, does NZ's "boots on the ground" (for these scenarios above) need to be trained for jungle warfare (as light infantry) or for amphibious operations? That's the direction you are raising and advocating. I feel it has merit, especially in this day and age. Australia of course has the luxury of having greater numbers (of service personnel), so can afford a greater deal of flexibility. NZ doesn't have that luxury of numbers, hence my interest in supporting raising troop numbers, to give some (as in, a bit of) flexibility, but more importantly to be able to sustain operations, whatever they may be.

So I can see the dilemma that a small nation such as NZ has. But I acknowledge that with a more maritime focus nowadays, things do need to be looked at (and I'm not proficient on Army structures to make bold suggestions - I'll leave that for others including yourself)!

So if defence expenditure is at least 2% GDP (2.5%-3% would be the ideal) then we can boost not only troop numbers (whatever they may be roled as), plus a number of armoured vehicle types including potentially amphibious, and improved logistic support, but also the other services including doubling of the Frigate force and having a couple of decent amphibious vessels for the Navy. For RNZAF, 2% won't give a decent ACF (unless they were second-hand gen-4 a/c and not for frontline coalition use eg local maritime strike and deterrence use) but it will give a couple more P-8's & C-130J's & NH-90's and some new MRTT's for troop/AAR tanker tasks and a couple of new A400/C-2 types ... 2.5% would see a credible, but one squadron ACF a la F-15/16/18/35 etc, and perhaps a couple of E-7A AEW&C if NZ wanted to better monitor potential air threats in its northern air patrol zone (Solomon Islands area etc) eg PLANAF long range reconnaissance or ship borne a/c etc).

But such expenditure and wishful thinking is not likely at the moment. So last thing, my only concern about Army restructuring is the politicians. I'm sure, along with the bean-counters, that any restructuring would be seized upon as an opportunity to reduce numbers, for "efficiency" sake (not practical sake)! So it would have to be done in a way that isn't radical. Perhaps incrementally, somehow, although IIRC the Battalions are down to only two full infantry company's (plus support companies) - is this correct? If so could be why ex-DefMin Ron Mark wanted to build Army numbers up (and he advocated for a Marine type structure in the past ... perhaps he had that in mind for the longer term, once the Army was at full strength ... and if he were still around as DefMin to enable change)??
 
Last edited:

swerve

Super Moderator
.... Britain is an island nation their army has always been a continental army because it's always fought the French, Spanish, Germans, Dutch and Russians on the European continent. It fought the US in two wars in North America and lost both. ...
Lost the first one to the French & Spanish, & how does defeating the US attempt to conquer Canada, sweeping the US navy & merchant fleet from the seas*, & when France was defeated & the Royal Navy & British army started gearing up to get serious the USA suddenly being in a hurry to sign the peace treaty that was on offer from day one count as losing?

*US maritime trade down by 90% - & that included a large proportion of internal trade, since much of it was coastal, e.g. shipping cotton from the south to New England mills, & finished goods from north to south. The US economy was in dire trouble. A lot of the 10% was under RN-issued permits, e.g. shipping supplies to the British army in Spain. Some US coastal cities had effectively opted out of the war & made their own peace with the UK in order to survive commercially.

The surviving USN ships were almost all cowering in harbour. Some had been hulked & towed up rivers to protect them from the RN. The days of beating smaller RN frigates were over. Even the privateering war was running heavily in the UK's favour. Surviving US privateers were burning captured ships since the chance of getting them home had diminished too much to make it worth trying. Half the British ships captured in the course of the war were recaptured, & more US ships - & given the disparity in fleet sizes, that meant inconvenience for the UK & catastrophe for the USA. Insurance premiums tell the tale. Higher but affordable for British ships, & US ships sailing without an RN permit having no insurance, because premiums were too high to buy.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I find it interesting that the modern labour stamp on defence is so anti Air Force being combat capable. The first Labour government formed the RNZAF as a separate unit built Ohakea and Whenuapai and ordered the the Wellington bombers along with a general increase in size and modern training aircraft. The second only had one term, but the Canberra's came at the end of the term, the third increased both the numbers of the Skyhawks and P3's and up graded both ( the the work had been started prior to this and introduced modern weapons to the mix. Then along came Hellen and flipped the hole thing on it's head.
 

Gracie1234

Well-Known Member
Keen on people's thoughts. The Foreign Minister announced NZ is keen to increase defence and security relationship with India. That sounds like a nod to the QUAD. It seems more of a signal than a real change in what we do. What might be the implications of NZ moving closer to India, I would presume the first questions is. What does NZ bring to the table to make it worthwhile for India to engage?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I find it interesting that the modern labour stamp on defence is so anti Air Force being combat capable. The first Labour government formed the RNZAF as a separate unit built Ohakea and Whenuapai and ordered the the Wellington bombers along with a general increase in size and modern training aircraft. The second only had one term, but the Canberra's came at the end of the term, the third increased both the numbers of the Skyhawks and P3's and up graded both ( the the work had been started prior to this and introduced modern weapons to the mix. Then along came Hellen and flipped the hole thing on it's head.
The additional ten ex RAN A-4's from Australia arrived in July 1984 just before the General Election when the Hon. David Thomson (a retired Brigadier) was still Defence Minister. It would be interesting to see what commentary one Helen Clark MP then in opposition had to say about that at the time.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The additional ten ex RAN A-4's from Australia arrived in July 1984 just before the General Election when the Hon. David Thomson (a retired Brigadier) was still Defence Minister. It would be interesting to see what commentary one Helen Clark MP then in opposition had to say about that at the time.
"O" to be a fly on the wall when she found out.
 
Top