New Coronavirus threat

t68

Well-Known Member
A major issue that many people who are opposed to vaccination and other mitigation efforts like mask wearing, social distancing, etc. seem to fail to understand is that those who are not following mitigation efforts are not just putting themselves at risk. Instead, the anti-mitigation people are risking themselves, everyone they come into contact with, and then the people who come into contact with the people exposed to/by the anti-mitigation people are also at risk.

What many who seem intent on demanding "their rights" keep failing to realize or perhaps it is a failure to acknowledge, is that their behavior does not just impact them.

So, by all means one can opt to not be vaccinated, but also understand that because other people wish to be protected, there can be restrictions placed on where one can go, and what one can do if they have decided to not get vaccinated.

Also, TBH the value of a negative COVID-19 test within 72 hrs is IMO not much. It can take as long as 5 days from the time of exposure before there is sufficient quantity of virus to show in a test. So one could easily have been exposed and infected and show a negative, or have been tested negative, then get exposed and become infected in the intervening 72 hours.

So do you believe we should be proactive in preventing Influenza the same way people want to restrict freedom of movement for unvaccinated for covid, after all both have roughly the same mortality rate in Australia using the statistics

RACGP - Flu-zero: More than a year since Australia’s last flu death

Research Reveals Vaccinated People More Vulnerable to Delta Variant Than Unvaccinated. – The Simpson Post (wordpress.com)

SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation (publishing.service.gov.uk)

COVID-19: a chronology of state and territory government announcements (up until 30 June 2020) – Parliament of Australia (aph.gov.au)

@t68 You are prevented from replying to posts in this thread for 3 days. This is because you have introduced politics and misinformation to the thread.

The Moderators will be using this time to discuss your future on this forum.

Considering your posting history and previous bans, this is non-negotiable and no correspondence will be entered in to.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
In the end, the most incentives for unvaccinated to get vaccinated is if it hit their wallet. When requirement for you to travel, for you to do commerce, for you to do outside work, basically to get your 'normal' life back are all related to vaccine 'certificate', then I firmly believe the majority of the unvaccinated population will 'grudgingly' go to vaccination center.

It should be the awereness of your health and community resposibility to get yourself vaccinated. However blame it for my Bankers thinking, I always see humanity in the end will move if it's hurting their wallet ;).
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
When SARS-Cov-2 first appeared its CFR (~1-3%) was, conservatively, about 10 times that of the seasonal flu (never mind Delta). Unlike the flu, it is a novel virus that we are only just beginning to understand not just in terms of its lethality but also in terms of its long term effects. This is an apples and pears comparison I am afraid.

Addendum: I'd add that if you are still reluctant to get vaccinated (even in the wake of delta) consider that - unlike seasonal flu - we now have a large reservoir of this novel virus circulating across practically every continent on the planet. As the delta variant illustrates, the virus is not going to remain static while it moves through our population globally, but will rather continue to change and evolve, potentially into something even nastier.

A recent submission to the UK Government from the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies had this to say (among other things):

Scenario One: A variant that causes severe disease in a greater proportion of the population than has occurred to date. For example, with similar morbidity/mortality to other zoonotic coronaviruses such as SARS-CoV (~10% case fatality) or MERS-CoV (~35% case fatality). This could be caused by:

1. Point mutations or recombination with other host or viral genes. This might occur through a change in SARS-CoV-2 internal genes such as the polymerase proteins or accessory proteins. These genes determine the outcome of infection by affecting the way the virus is sensed by the cell, the speed at which the virus replicates and the anti-viral response of the cell to infection. There is precedent for Coronaviruses (CoVs) to acquire additional genes or sequences from the host, from themselves or from other viruses.

2. By recombination between two VOC or VUIs. One with high drift (change in the spike glycoprotein) from the current spike glycoprotein gene used in the vaccine and the other with a more efficient replication and transmission determined by internal genes, for example, a recombination between beta and alpha or delta variants respectively. Alternatively, recombination may occur between two different variants with two different strategies for overcoming innate immunity, combining to give an additive or synergistic change of phenotype resulting in higher replication of the virus – and potentially increased morbidity and mortality. Likelihood of genotypic change in internal genes: Likely whilst the circulation of SARSCoV-2 is high.

Likelihood of increased severity phenotype: Realistic possibility.

Impact: High.

Unless there is significant drift in the spike glycoprotein gene sequence, then the current spike glycoprotein-based vaccines are highly likely to continue to provide protection against serious disease. However, an increase in morbidity and mortality would be expected even in the face of vaccination since vaccines do not provide absolute sterilising immunity i.e. they do not fully prevent infection in most individuals.

What can we do?

• Consider vaccine booster doses to maintain protection against severe disease.
• Reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2 within the UK (to reduce risk of point mutations, recombination).
• Minimise introduction of new variants from other territories (to reduce risk of recombination between variants).
• Targeted surveillance for reverse zoonoses, and if necessary, consider animal vaccination, slaughter, or isolation policies.
• Continue to monitor disease severity associated with variants (to identify changes in phenotype).
• Continue to develop improved prophylactic and therapeutic drugs for SARSCoV-2 and disease symptoms.
• Consider stockpiling prophylactic and therapeutic drugs for SARS-CoV-2.
Just food for thought.
 
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t68

Well-Known Member
When SARS-Cov-2 first appeared its CFR was, conservatively, about 10 times that of the seasonal flu (never mind Delta). Unlike the flu, it is a novel virus that we are only just beginning to understand not just in terms of its lethality but also in terms of its long term effects. This is an apples and pears comparison I am afraid.
No sorry do not agree with that statement.

When the 1st main influenza pandemic hit Australia in the early 1900's, 40% of the population fell ill and 15000 died and this at a time of the great war when troops where returning home but also a time when travel was restricted mainly to the wealthy, we also saw them in 57 & 68 with the last being in 2009, there were 37,636 cases of pandemic (H1N1) influenza 2009, including 191 associated deaths. The median age of those dying was 53 years, compared to 83 years for seasonal influenza.

Review of Australia’s Health Sector Response to Pandemic (H1N1) 2009: Lessons Identified

Both are contagious respiratory illnesses, both flu and COVID-19 can be mild or severe, or fatal and also spread in similar ways and both are treated in the same way. The only main point of difference is because covid is so new the only effective treatment is via intravenously, in time it is hoped that more information will become available to treat it orally like the flu which only address the symptoms not the actual virus.

But the facts remain still and supported by statistics is that influenza is just as contagious as covid and the mortality rate is on par, the only difference we are seeing is that the world has reacted differently to covid with mass testing and restrictions that even the most mild of case are being reported which just does not happen with influenza.

If you want to be fair dinkum about vaccinations make it mandatory, but the government cannot be selective do it for all or none but do not discriminate when people choose not to.

COVID-19 vaccinations and federal discrimination law | Australian Human Rights Commission

The whole point of my post
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
No sorry do not agree with that statement.

When the 1st main influenza pandemic hit Australia in the early 1900's, 40% of the population fell ill and 15000 died and this at a time of the great war when troops where returning home but also a time when travel was restricted mainly to the wealthy, we also saw them in 57 & 68 with the last being in 2009, there were 37,636 cases of pandemic (H1N1) influenza 2009, including 191 associated deaths. The median age of those dying was 53 years, compared to 83 years for seasonal influenza.

Review of Australia’s Health Sector Response to Pandemic (H1N1) 2009: Lessons Identified

Both are contagious respiratory illnesses, both flu and COVID-19 can be mild or severe, or fatal and also spread in similar ways and both are treated in the same way. The only main point of difference is because covid is so new the only effective treatment is via intravenously, in time it is hoped that more information will become available to treat it orally like the flu which only address the symptoms not the actual virus.

But the facts remain still and supported by statistics is that influenza is just as contagious as covid and the mortality rate is on par, the only difference we are seeing is that the world has reacted differently to covid with mass testing and restrictions that even the most mild of case are being reported which just does not happen with influenza.

If you want to be fair dinkum about vaccinations make it mandatory, but the government cannot be selective do it for all or none but do not discriminate when people choose not to.

COVID-19 vaccinations and federal discrimination law | Australian Human Rights Commission

The whole point of my post
Not true. You are conflating seasonal flu with Spanish/pandemic flu here - they are not remotely the same thing. Ultimately what you are butting up against is that your decision to not get vaccinated doesn't just affect you, it affects anyone you infect if you get sick and anyone you deny a hospital bed to if you subsequently need one yourself.
 
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Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Also, for perspective on seasonal flu (NOT pandemic flu, which we are NOT currently experiencing) consider this:

While the impact of flu varies, it places a substantial burden on the health of people in the United States each year. CDC estimates that influenza has resulted in between 9.2 million and 60.8 million illnesses, between 140,000 and 710,000 hospitalizations and between 12,000 and 56,000 deaths annually since 2010 (time of writing was ~2016).

This is with no systematic lockdowns, social distancing, mask use etc in response to seasonal flu. Now compare to the corresponding stats in the U.S for COVID19, which has been targeted by lockdowns, masks and social distancing. Apples and pears indeed.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #967
In the end, the most incentives for unvaccinated to get vaccinated is if it hit their wallet. When requirement for you to travel, for you to do commerce, for you to do outside work, basically to get your 'normal' life back are all related to vaccine 'certificate', then I firmly believe the majority of the unvaccinated population will 'grudgingly' go to vaccination center.

It should be the awereness of your health and community resposibility to get yourself vaccinated. However blame it for my Bankers thinking, I always see humanity in the end will move if it's hurting their wallet ;).
Absolutely agree and that is why I think a surcharge on OHIP premiums for the unvaccinated is a good incentive. Just as important is placing the unvaccinated at the the end of the ICU waiting list.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Also, for perspective on seasonal flu (NOT pandemic flu, which we are NOT currently experiencing) consider this:


This is with no systematic lockdowns, social distancing, mask use etc in response to seasonal flu. Now compare to the corresponding stats in the U.S for COVID19, which has been targeted by lockdowns, masks and social distancing. Apples and pears indeed.
US flu deaths from 2016-17 to 2019-20 were more or less in the same range as in 2010-2016. Peak of 61,000 in the 2017-18 season, down to 22,000 in 2019-20.

And note that the criteria for attributing a death to flu or covid-19 differ: the methods used for estimating flu deaths are looser than those used in the USA for counting covid-19 deaths. The covid-19 count would go up if the same methods were used. As you say, apples & pears. Covid-19 mortality is hugely higher.

Also, look at the deaths from flu in 2020-21. It turns out that lockdowns, masks, etc. cut flu deaths considerably. Not exactly surprising, eh?

Interesting article - Flu Deaths Have Dropped Dramatically, Thanks to COVID-19 Prevention Efforts The numbers it uses seem to be correct, & it links to the CDC, etc.
And this one - Comparing COVID-19 Deaths to Flu Deaths Is like Comparing Apples to Oranges
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Vaccination using cow pox has existed since 1500s

1. Doctors in China understood how to use inoculation to prevent smallpox from around the 1500s; and this traditional knowledge spread to other countries in Japan and Korea, saving millions. In 1796, the British doctor Edward Jenner was able to demonstrate that an infection with the relatively mild cowpox virus conferred immunity against the deadly smallpox virus.

So do you believe we should be proactive in preventing Influenza the same way people want to restrict freedom of movement for unvaccinated for covid, after all both have roughly the same mortality rate in Australia using the statistics
Research Reveals Vaccinated People More Vulnerable to Delta Variant Than Unvaccinated. – The Simpson Post (wordpress.com)
2. Vaccination, as a concept to save a life is not a new idea. I really do not understand the anti-vaccination movement’s pull. Perhaps lessons from studying cults (often less pejoratively called new religious movements) can inform more effective approaches to the anti-vax movement. A cult has come to mean a non-conforming ideology, or a religion that is disliked, with beliefs that are unacceptable to mainstream society — just like the ‘pro choice’ link (aka anti-vaxxer link) provided by t68 — members are free to share opinions but not free to being counter factual — especially if the link provided contains known falsehoods.

3. A more constructive perspective could view t68’s ‘pro choice’ beliefs as a religious phenomenon, involving a whole spectrum of ideas to avoid further marginalisation. Hence, if we imply that anti-vaxxers are beyond the reach of community engagement, this could result in increased anti-vax activities by those holding that point of view. Later this month, we may need to engage in a sustained dialogue with t68 (about his vaccine hesitancy) and should be extended to members of the anti-vax movement, who happen to read this post.

4. Given that Delta kills the vulnerable members of our society much more easily, vaccine hesitancy can result in unnecessary loss of life. Singapore has a total of 49 deaths but 12 of these occurred in Aug 2021 — even the 1st world medial care provided can’t improve the survival rate of those infected by Delta. For many, the symptoms manifested by a Delta variant Covid-19 inflection is much more severe.

5. There is some data out of Denmark shows overall vaccine effectiveness (both doses), for your consideration:

(i) Preventing Hospitalization:
  • Alpha- Pfizer 86%, Moderna 97%
  • Delta- Pfizer 94%, Moderna 97%
(ii) Preventing Infection:
  • Alpha- Pfizer 81%, Moderna 96%
  • Delta- Pfizer 79%, Moderna 88%
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #970
Convincing anti-vaxers is sort of like convincing smokers to quit. Sometimes you just can’t fix stupid.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Convincing anti-vaxers is sort of like convincing smokers to quit. Sometimes you just can’t fix stupid.
I tend to break anti-vaxxers down into several different groups. Please note that someone who is hesitant about getting a COVID-19 vaccination is not necessarily an anti-vaxxer.

Firstly, what is an anti-vaxxer? Broadly speaking, an anti-vaxxer (in the US at least) is someone opposed to vaccines and vaccination, although in some cases, the opposition might be more specific like being opposed to a specific type of vaccination (the standard MMR vaccination in the US is a good example of this).

From the anti-vaxxers as mentioned above, I tend to further break anti-vaxxers down into a few groups, usually based off the reason they are opposed to vaccinations. Some of the opposition is based upon ideology, which can include religious beliefs as certain religious sects are opposed to many modern medical interventions. Unfortunately, some of the ideology is also political and this absolutely applies to attitudes towards COVID-19 vaccines in the US, with many who remain unvaccinated in the US stating that they are unvaccinated because they are "conservative".

Some of the opposition is also based off ignorance. It is unfortunately true that many in the US are unaware of the long history of vaccinating people from diseases, or much of the science that is involved. This ignorance, when presented with the vast amounts of misinformation on vaccines, often leaves people unable to distinguish accurate information, from information that is wrong, or even outright false. This leaves people as ripe targets for crackpots and charlatans.

There is also a type of person who will profess opposition to vaccinations because they are seeking to gain benefit from doing so. This is often a financial benefit, though it could include doing so to attract more followers, increasing the size of their following and reach of their powers of persuasion, etc. If one were to look at some of the specific individuals and groups that have been opposed to COVID-19 vaccinations as well as mitigation efforts in the US, one might notice that a number of the individuals and groups had a financial stake in doing so. This also applies to a number of people opposed more generally to vaccines and often modern/conventional medicine as well. An example of which might be a doctor who happens to push "natural" health cures and just so happens to hawk vitamin supplements and organic foods that the doctor promotes as alternative treatments...

I readily admit I am most infuriated by those who should/do know better, who continue to promote agendas that will line their own pockets at the financial expense and health of the people who listen to them.

Also as a side note, some of the ignorant can sometimes become so swayed by the misinformation that is floating around, and there is a lot of it, often deliberately written and collected in such a way to try and convince more people, that the belief becomes entrenched in their minds. An interesting psychological study which IIRC was done within the last four years, indicated that information people draw first from the Internet, was often what people would stick to believing, even if later on the people were presented with documented evidence showing that the first set of information was false or incorrect.

Second side note: I have noticed that one of the tactics anti-vaxxers use is to present large amounts of false information, essentially attempting to overwhelm a person and convince them that due to the quantity of information, that the anti-vaxxer is correct, despite the reality that the information if not outright false, is almost always of poor quality. Another tactic often used in tandem with this, is for links and citations to other works to provide further supporting "proof". I note this for three reasons. The first being that often the links and citations to other sources are often dead and/or do not connect to anything. The second is that often when a link or citation is correct, it takes one to an article or study which does not support the argument the person who provided the link or citation is actually making. The third reason I mention this is that I have noticed recently here on DT with some posters using similar tactics when providing support for their claims. The poster would claim one thing and link to an article which stated something different and rather contrary to what the poster claimed.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The mother of three of my grandchildren is a psychologist and she's anti vaccines. Like me she's quite capable of reading scientific articles and understanding the basics. Both her and I could access the Lancet at the time. She said that she had done her research and I queried her on her sources. One she gave me was the original Lancet article by Andrew Wakefield claiming that the MMR vaccine caused autism and swollen colons in some children. However I did have trouble finding sources verifying that claim and four years later this story broke: Antivaccine hero Andrew Wakefield: Scientific fraud? Showed her the appropriate references and what not but she refused to back down brushing the evidence to one side. The stubborn is strong in that one. She and my son split a few years later. AFAIK she still is anti vax. I can't see her changing her mind despite the evidence presented to the contrary.

People who, like her, refuse to change their views despite scientific evidence to show that their position is incorrect, are either to stubborn to change, or are unwilling to change because of political or religious held values. My argument is that those values don't supercede a person's responsibility to others within the commons - the community. All people in any community have a right to good health and the protection from disease and / or harm. This is exactly the same right as freedom of speech and association. That right of good health and the protection from disease and / or harm is not supercede by the rights of freedom of speech and association.

Because we have those rights we also have a responsibility to other members of our family and wider community to take measures to ensure the continued well-being, safety and harmony of the community. In the times of pandemics these measures will be health measures that will include, but not restricted to, such things as vaccines, quarantine, movement restrictions, lockdowns etc. We don't have to like it but these measures are done to preserve life and reduce the impacts upon the health systems.

There is much misinformation and outright lies bandied about upon the Internet by people who have nefarious intentions. Some originates from Russia and China as part of their grey war and cyberwar programs, some from various sources who are pushing dubious causes, and in the last 18 - 20 months American evangelical and right wing political groups, including the Republican Party, all for religious and political purposes.

It's up to us to make an individual choice but we should remember whatever decision that we are making, is it for the right reasons? Is it going to help protect our loved ones, family, and community? Or are we making it based on information that is unscientific, misinformed, political and / or religious? If it is the latter then I would suggest that one should question ones values.

Disclaimer: I have a scientific bias because I have trained and worked in science.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Convincing anti-vaxers is sort of like convincing smokers to quit. Sometimes you just can’t fix stupid.
This thread is getting ridiculous.

So anyone who may have question marks regarding Covid vaccines is now labeled an “anti-vaxer”??

For example I know a number of people holding off being vaccinated because they would prefer another option to AZ, does that make them an anti-vaxer? No it doesn’t.

So now we’ve decided to give smokers a kick, smokers are stupid, hey?

Which group is next for a kicking?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #974
This thread is getting ridiculous.

So anyone who may have question marks regarding Covid vaccines is now labeled an “anti-vaxer”??

For example I know a number of people holding off being vaccinated because they would prefer another option to AZ, does that make them an anti-vaxer? No it doesn’t.

So now we’ve decided to give smokers a kick, smokers are stupid, hey?

Which group is next for a kicking?
Smokers are a massive drain on our health system, just like the unvaccinated filling up our ICUs thus preventing many surgeries. [rant on] Meanwhile pollies are content to collect tax revenues from cigarettes. They could collect even more except for all the illegal sales from First Nations sales which they are too cowardly to take action against.[rant off].
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Smokers are a massive drain on our health system, just like the unvaccinated filling up our ICUs thus preventing many surgeries. [rant on] Meanwhile pollies are content to collect tax revenues from cigarettes. They could collect even more except for all the illegal sales from First Nations sales which they are too cowardly to take action against.[rant off].
This thread is about the COVID-19 pandemic, not about tobacco smoking. If you want to rant about tobacco smoking go elsewhere and do it. This is not the forum. Secondly, ranting about those who who are unvaccinated is not acceptable either. So calm the farm.

FYI I gave up smoking 21 years ago. I can even tell you the date and time I had my last cigarette, but I don't give a shit about other people smoking. It's their choice not mine. My wife smoked until she had her heart attack 8 years ago. That was her choice.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #976
This thread is about the COVID-19 pandemic, not about tobacco smoking. If you want to rant about tobacco smoking go elsewhere and do it. This is not the forum. Secondly, ranting about those who who are unvaccinated is not acceptable either. So calm the farm.

FYI I gave up smoking 21 years ago. I can even tell you the date and time I had my last cigarette, but I don't give a shit about other people smoking. It's their choice not mine. My wife smoked until she had her heart attack 8 years ago. That was her choice.
Done
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

This is an example how vaccine controversies are now moving on more to your wallet. I don't to dwell much on the debate between vaccinated and non- vaccinated (due to believe, medical reason, or waiting for other option). However just to shown how by not going to get vaccinated, will cost more on your wallet.

The debate on vaccinated people still can be inffectious have gain reasoning for Non-Vaccinated for example. However in term of statistical number, those vaccinated but get breakthrough cases of COVID (thus still become inffectious) also much less then Non-Vaccinated. For that, it is reasonable for Government or Employees to charge more on the Non-Vaccinated.

Health choices going to be still lengthy debate now and futures. For me, I don't want to dwell on that more. However just charge them more as consequences. I'm a smoker, and I've to live with financial consequences that it will cost me more on Insurance premium and some other direct and indirect cost due to social and regulation. I have to go specific place in restaurant to will cost me from convinience point of view as example.

I take that as example and not to talk on smokers in this Covid thread. But because like non-vaccinated, it is an example on How financial (directly and indirectly) consequences are more effective and also more acceptable for health related choices. I'm now choose to smoke in the front yard of my house, rather then taking inconvinience costs smoking in public places.

This is an example that the Non-Vaccinated segment of population need to face. The wallet cost will reduce the population of Non-Vaccinated more effectivelly, just as already reduce the population of smokers.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer

This is an example how vaccine controversies are now moving on more to your wallet. I don't to dwell much on the debate between vaccinated and non- vaccinated (due to believe, medical reason, or waiting for other option). However just to shown how by not going to get vaccinated, will cost more on your wallet.

The debate on vaccinated people still can be inffectious have gain reasoning for Non-Vaccinated for example. However in term of statistical number, those vaccinated but get breakthrough cases of COVID (thus still become inffectious) also much less then Non-Vaccinated. For that, it is reasonable for Government or Employees to charge more on the Non-Vaccinated.

Health choices going to be still lengthy debate now and futures. For me, I don't want to dwell on that more. However just charge them more as consequences. I'm a smoker, and I've to live with financial consequences that it will cost me more on Insurance premium and some other direct and indirect cost due to social and regulation. I have to go specific place in restaurant to will cost me from convinience point of view as example.

I take that as example and not to talk on smokers in this Covid thread. But because like non-vaccinated, it is an example on How financial (directly and indirectly) consequences are more effective and also more acceptable for health related choices. I'm now choose to smoke in the front yard of my house, rather then taking inconvinience costs smoking in public places.

This is an example that the Non-Vaccinated segment of population need to face. The wallet cost will reduce the population of Non-Vaccinated more effectivelly, just as already reduce the population of smokers.
In the US, there have been a number of suggestions about having health insurance either not cover, or increase the premiums, deductible and co-pays for treating COVID-19 issues experienced by the unvaccinated, as well as decision making regarding priorities in providing care. A common counter-argument that I keep seeing get brought up, is the idea of extending these financial considerations to other ailments like diabetes, obesity, and so on. While there might be some merit in doing so to effect a change in patient behavior (long-term behavior), there is a critical element that these counter-arguments fail to consider. Health conditions like diabetes, obesity, and even smoking (though there are potential secondhand smoke issues) are neither infectious or contagious. A person who is diabetic, cannot make someone else diabetic if they spend too much time in close proximity. The same cannot be said about such an infectious virus.

Here is something else for those with hesitation on getting vaccinated to also consider. Yes, it is true that there might be some unknown, long-term health implications from getting vaccinated. Really the only way to determine that is to wait years to see if something develops. At the same time however, the long-term health implications for people who got infected with COVID-19 are also unknown. The same also holds true for some of the emergency treatments which were rapidly developed. All the long-term effects remain unknown because this is a novel virus which has not been seen before, so nothing involved has ever had sufficient time to lead to any long-term effects. At this point we do know that for some patients, they can still feel the effects of COVID-19 months after getting diagnosed and/or testing positive. For those who really wish to hold out until the long-term effects are known, then you are looking at a wait of years. In the mean time, you could also end up catching one or more variants of the virus while you wait.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The problem I see with increasing insurance costs for unvaccinated people is that it will encourage the insurance companies to be more avaricious than usual. In a health system such as the US it will give them an excuse to increase costs not just for this, but other conditions and at the same weasel out of paying out when claims are submitted.

In NZ the vaccine is free so there are no cost barriers preventing people getting the vaccination. Also hospital level health care is free and going to the General Practitioner - primary health care, is subsidised. So if you get crook (sick) or real crook, you are covered.
 

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
While a lot of bad things can be said about how the US does their health system, the business case for raising the premium for unvaccinated people is pretty airtight. Unvaccinated people are more likely to require costly medical care than vaccinated people. This holds for all sort of diseases.

Delta Airlines is not an insurance company. Rather, they're an airline company that choose to self-insure, putting money into a common account. They are large enough that this is feasible (all insurance is fundamentally this, btw) and this way they can cut out the avaricious US insurance companies and get better rates for their employees.

If they aren't allowed to raise the rates for the unvaccinated, they will have to raise the rates for all their employees.

If they aren't allowed to do either of the above but are still required to provide coverage for their employees, they will be forced to scrap their self-insured healthcare plan and switch to a regular health insurance company. This introduces one of the avaricious US healthcare companies into their system and will increase the rates for the employees.

If Delta isn't allowed to raise the premium for their self-insured health plan and doesn't switch to a third-party health insurer, then the increased cost will have to be taken from the company's budget. I expect shareholders will object to this sudden financial burden and will instead prefer to fire the unvaccinated employee. And frankly, they have a good reason to do so at that point.

Raising the insurance cost for just the unvaccinated employees is likely the least harmful option overall for Delta Airlines.
 
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