Beholder

Active Member
Cellphone disruption ( and landline, media) won’t affect the military very much but will for the civilian population. Without a reliable means to communicate with the public, confused civilians could easily be a problem for military operations.
It's possible to knock out cellular network in relatively wide area and RF for example certainly capable of this. Even if they not target specifically cell phones.
But isn't the answer to this is army, who has communication, to establishing contact with civilian population(you know leaflets, direct contact with civilian authorities in area etc.) and guide them to stay at home for example, while military provide relief when needed?
Military can't actually shrink responsibility in this case.
In Israel we have Home Front command, that do guide civilian population. During the operation in enemy territory, army do similar things to a lesser extent.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It's possible to knock out cellular network in relatively wide area and RF for example certainly capable of this. Even if they not target specifically cell phones.
But isn't the answer to this is army, who has communication, to establishing contact with civilian population(you know leaflets, direct contact with civilian authorities in area etc.) and guide them to stay at home for example, while military provide relief when needed?
Military can't actually shrink responsibility in this case.
In Israel we have Home Front command, that do guide civilian population. During the operation in enemy territory, army do similar things to a lesser extent.
I assume several European countries might have established secure links to civilian leadership but how leadership then communicates to citizens might very well be limited to leaflets, not exactly ideal. I would imagine the situation in Canada would be even more limited.
 

Beholder

Active Member
I assume several European countries might have established secure links to civilian leadership but how leadership then communicates to citizens might very well be limited to leaflets, not exactly ideal. I would imagine the situation in Canada would be even more limited.
That what military needs to identify.
Civilian leadership can use firefighter, police, ppl that give you parking tickets, medics, volunteers, postal services etc.
Same things you use when natural disaster strikes.
In general you plan how to do it before actual fighting start for home front.
In our history home front command was established in 1994 and first was directed mainly toward preparedness for chem weapon use(by Syria), now it's more toward heavy conventional rocket attack, but principles are similar.
Dysfunctional cellular network is very light in comparison. IMO
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Conscription, part of the mandatory set of tasks to mark off in the first couple weeks to complete basic training.

Was part of a longer overnight thing with multiple stations that also included a detectability and observation at night lesson as well as a rather claustrophobic crawl on our backs through a rather wet storm drain under a street. Trek - split down to squad level, with light gear (15 kg plus rifle) - started after that, at something past midnight and went until about 3 am, with pickup an hour later and regular day service training starting a bit late the next day at 6 am.
Like most training, you have to start of with basics. Conscription never really gets out beyond it. I am curious to hear how Germany is going now its dropped the conscription. I hear of calls for it to be reinstated, conscription had a lot of negatives sure, but it also address some issues which seem to be coming more apparent.


Yes, Scouts has a religious element to it, and in Australia, a very strong monarchist slant. However, plenty of atheist republicans exist in it, particularly in countries where its enjoys wide membership. I guess for many Australians religion is a tradition more than an active belief. I could see that experience perhaps not existing in other countries. I assume its implementation varies by country significantly. I know they have wide membership across CANZUS. Wide membership is the key. Scouts is just one organization, there other similar entities.

The ADF here has Army cadets, Navy Cadets and Air Cadets. While not massively popular, they have around half a dozen units in each of the capital cities, and usually a few around each major regional military base, usually catering to children of military staff. The Air cadets are very popular here, there are waiting lists.

Most of the school cadet programs here in Australia are in private schools, however not all. Some selective and specialist public schools also have them.

I don't think any of these programs significantly shorten training periods, but they probably do help with retention in boot camps and help inform defence career choices. They also all very interested people, to really work on strong basic core skills.

The GAP year program here seems very popular. It seems Germany is interested in a similar program.

Recent COVID19 has seen defence recruitment massively surge in Australia.

I assume several European countries might have established secure links to civilian leadership but how leadership then communicates to citizens might very well be limited to leaflets, not exactly ideal. I would imagine the situation in Canada would be even more limited.
Here in Australia we have things like the New South Wales State Emergency Service - Wikipedia and New South Wales Rural Fire Service - Wikipedia.

The NSWRFS has been fantastically modern at communicating. Everyone in regional areas, has the app downloaded, and tells you when they are back burning, controlled fire, uncontrolled fire. Governments can also SMS people in areas to evacuate. We have boards that warn of fire danger located near roads leading or entering towns. RFS and SES also have radio coms, can patching to police coms, etc.

Australia has also looked at mobile phone tower replacement, after the fires this year when many were damaged. So mobile phone trucks that can be driven into an area and offer regional replacement.

There is also the capability to utilise every wifi hotspot as a point to make calls and to help navigation. In Australia, every public phone now is a Wifi hot spot, and most peoples Wifi router in their home offers a public connection.

Every set of traffic lights also has at least bluetooth connection (to collect data) and could be upgraded to a wifi hotspot.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Off-topic alert. Sorry about that.
Conscription never really gets out beyond it. I am curious to hear how germany is going now its dropped the conscription.
Technically not true — may be true in Taiwan and Korea, where the level of training is deliberately limited, but not true in other systems.

Finland and Israel are differing examples of how to train conscripts to a high level. These conscript armies are designed to fight in specific roles in defined terrain types with detailed and classified drawer plans — that are wargamed for optimal outcomes.
Like most training, you have to start of with basics. Conscription never really gets out beyond it. I am curious to hear how germany is going now its dropped the conscription.
Broad brush stereotypes don’t illuminate. Conscription is not one size fits all and national system design matters with regard to building a commitment to defend at an individual level (which takes some effort to explain and understand). It’s not only a matter of spending $30k or $100k per conscript, based on talent and need.

In systems that work, conscription means training a soldier, sailor or airman to their vocation specific task. I am a great admirer of Finland’s total defence concept and the above video is part of their communications effort for their conscripts.

Singapore has much to learn from Finland in their total defence plans. And you may be shocked how much was spent training my son over 47 weeks; as part of his 22 month NSF cycle before he is rotated to the operationally ready reserves for a 10 year cycle in the Singapore context.
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The GAP year program here seems very popular. It seems Germany is interested in a similar program.
The Bundeswehr has had a "voluntary conscription" programme in place for 25 years now, with (in financial planning) up to 12,500 volunteers per year serving between 7 and 23 months in enlisted posts. Usually there's between 11,000 and 19,000 applicants for such postings. Interest has been falling since about 2016, when a strategic change let to recruiters shifting possible applicants over to regular army enlistment instead.

To be realistic: For the most part it's not considered worthwhile to invest any meaningful training in these people, and they're shunted off into auxiliary posts in administration or as drivers and such. People serving longer than 12 months may get deployed, with any less you'll be considered a deadweight. It also tends to not be very satisfactory for those serving in it. First 6 months - the full training period basically - are a probation period, during which 23% of voluntary conscripts quit their job and 4% get fired by the military.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Finland and Israel are differing examples of how to train conscripts to a high level. These conscript armies are designed to fight in specific roles in defined terrain types with detailed and classified drawer plans — that are wargamed for optimal outcomes.

Broad brush stereotypes don’t illuminate. Conscription is not one size fits all and national system design matters with regard to building a commitment to defend at an individual level (which takes some effort to explain and understand). It’s not only a matter of spending $30k or $100k per conscript, based on talent and need.
"After a few short sentences, we are dropped straight into the storyline, with shadowy attacks on infrastructure. Notable among these is that on the water supply in Lappeenranta. "

...
Lappeenranta? Well, at least they have the lake for fresh water, though to make sure, I'd boil or otherwise treat the water..

Yes, I've been there. Swum in the lake, & been across it by ship. I recall that on midsummer day most of the population seemed to be incapable from drink. I'd invade then.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Lappeenranta? Well, at least they have the lake for fresh water, though to make sure, I'd boil or otherwise treat the water..

Yes, I've been there. Swum in the lake, & been across it by ship. I recall that on midsummer day most of the population seemed to be incapable from drink. I'd invade then.
If a COVID cure is found by 2021 midsummer I think there will be many national populations incapable from drink!
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Off-topic alert. Sorry about that.

Technically not true — may be true in Taiwan and Korea, where the level of training is deliberately limited, but not true in other systems.

Finland and Israel are differing examples of how to train conscripts to a high level. These conscript armies are designed to fight in specific roles in defined terrain types with detailed and classified drawer plans — that are wargamed for optimal outcomes.

Broad brush stereotypes don’t illuminate. Conscription is not one size fits all and national system design matters with regard to building a commitment to defend at an individual level (which takes some effort to explain and understand). It’s not only a matter of spending $30k or $100k per conscript, based on talent and need.

In systems that work, conscription means training a solider, sailor or airman to their vocation specific task. I am a great admirer of Finland’s total defence concept and the above video is part of their communications effort for their conscripts.

Singapore has much to learn from Finland in their total defence plans. And you may be shocked how much was spent training my son over 47 weeks; as part of his 22 month NSF cycle before he is rotated to the operationally ready reserves for a 10 year cycle in the Singapore context.
Pretty sure the part about the IDF is not true.
I wasn't an infantryman. I did no combat, I was in the intelligence corps. But I do know that all combat soldiers are expected to go through rigorous training in multiple different types of terrain and scenarios.
By the end of their service, every soldier would have accumulated a significant amount of time in the desert, urban areas, rocky fields, mountains, flats etc.

Our veterans are in eternal grief over the poor state of weapons proficiency of our infantrymen, but at least the terrain thing they do right.
 

Beholder

Active Member
Four Allies launch multinational initiative on Rapidly Deployable Mobile Counter Rockets, Artillery And Mortar Capability

Experts from the four Allied nations will investigate options for the multinational development and procurement of capabilities in this area, with a particular focus on innovative solutions such as directed energy based capabilities. The signature of the Letter of Intent launching this initiative was added virtually from the capitals of participating nations on 23 October 2020, in the margins of the meeting of NATO Ministers of Defence.

C-RAM capabilities are key for NATO’s readiness. Development and procurement of effective solutions to defend Allied forces from rockets, artillery and mortar threats will contribute to effectively protecting personnel, facilities, and equipment.

“This C-RAM initiative will significantly increase capacities to conduct high-intensity operations, while enhancing the protection of personnel, facilities and equipment from rocket and mortar artillery attacks, and conventional air threats,” said the Deputy Secretary General Mircea Geoană.

This multinational initiative will provide for a lower cost and more resilient solution, while increasing interoperability among participating Allies.



Interesting, what part of it is due to NK war and what is continuation of NATO countries rising commitment to collective self-defence.
Direct energy C-RAM is relatively new trend, UK also have at least one in inventory(Drone Dome).

P.S.NK = Nagorno-Karabakh.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Four Allies launch multinational initiative on Rapidly Deployable Mobile Counter Rockets, Artillery And Mortar Capability

Experts from the four Allied nations will investigate options for the multinational development and procurement of capabilities in this area, with a particular focus on innovative solutions such as directed energy based capabilities. The signature of the Letter of Intent launching this initiative was added virtually from the capitals of participating nations on 23 October 2020, in the margins of the meeting of NATO Ministers of Defence.

C-RAM capabilities are key for NATO’s readiness. Development and procurement of effective solutions to defend Allied forces from rockets, artillery and mortar threats will contribute to effectively protecting personnel, facilities, and equipment.

“This C-RAM initiative will significantly increase capacities to conduct high-intensity operations, while enhancing the protection of personnel, facilities and equipment from rocket and mortar artillery attacks, and conventional air threats,” said the Deputy Secretary General Mircea Geoană.

This multinational initiative will provide for a lower cost and more resilient solution, while increasing interoperability among participating Allies.



Interesting, what part of it is due to NK war and what is continuation of NATO countries rising commitment to collective self-defence.
Direct energy C-RAM is relatively new trend, UK also have at least one in inventory(Drone Dome).
Just be careful with anachronyms and terminology on here. NK is the usual form for North Korea.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
NATO is working on a unified approach towards the PRC and a Reflection Group, consisting of advisers, has delivered a report that recommends that NATO form a body within itself that specifically deals only with the PRC. This body would talk about the PRC, not to it and formulate NATO policy towards it. The advisory group sees the PRC as a long term danger to NATO and the world because of the present govts authoritarian nature and its predatory approach to territory.


The current NATO SECGEN also wants the organisation to become more political in order to deal with the PRC problem in the Asia Pacific and work with countries in the region such as Australia, NZ, South Korea and Japan.

 

Beholder

Active Member
Question if NATO will get support(or even commitment) from major EU countries on this issue.
And what actual resources NATO can muster in Asia without undermining it's main mission in Europe vs RF.
After all NATO charter doesn't hold in Asia Pacific.
In general West have ample resources to counter this threat if there is will to do it.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Question if NATO will get support(or even commitment) from major EU countries on this issue.
And what actual resources NATO can muster in Asia without undermining it's main mission in Europe vs RF.
After all NATO charter doesn't hold in Asia Pacific.
In general West have ample resources to counter this threat if there is will to do it.
Possible Chinese incursions into the Arctic would get Denmark and Norway’s attention as well as Canada’s. Canada is also a Pacific nation with important trade relations with Asia other than China. Other EU members have similar trade interests. WRT resources that is an issue and NATO needs to address this. Increased naval assets should be the first priority and several members are already doing this.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Question if NATO will get support(or even commitment) from major EU countries on this issue.
And what actual resources NATO can muster in Asia without undermining it's main mission in Europe vs RF.
After all NATO charter doesn't hold in Asia Pacific.
In general West have ample resources to counter this threat if there is will to do it.
I think that NATO would most likely undertake more of a diplomatic political role in the Asia Pacific region. Although you could see various NATO navies undertake FON operations in areas such as the SCS. Australia and NZ also have special relationship status with NATO through various operations with them in the Middle East, Afghanistan and I think, the former Yugoslavia.
 

Beholder

Active Member
Mmm, I see in article, that they allow "coalition of the wiling" to act, but NATO itself is still require all to agree to act militarily. That does not change anything. That is what we have now. Or maybe it does.
It can go both ways. IMO
What we see is possible framework of cooperation, it still requires major EU economies to be effective i think.
Maybe they don't need to participate in direct military cooperation to counter China, but if we go for some collective application of economic or political power, then alliance can be very effective in deterring China from direct military action and actively counter psyops and economic influence in developing countries.
With China actively hijacking international organisations, some framework of cooperation for democratic countries certainly needed.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
NATO Leaders Summit 2021 - Part 1.

NATO has released the communique from the leaders summit held in Brussels on Monday 14/7/2021. Of note:

7. The NATO 2030 agenda sets a higher level of ambition for NATO. It provides clear guidelines for further adaptation to address existing, new and future threats and challenges, building on the ongoing political and military adaptation of the Alliance. Delivering on the NATO 2030 agenda, the three core tasks and the next Strategic Concept requires adequate resourcing through national defence expenditure and common funding. Based on requirements, we agree to increase such resourcing, including as necessary NATO common funding starting in 2023, taking into account sustainability, affordability and accountability. When we meet in 2022, we will agree, alongside the Strategic Concept, the specific requirements for additional funding up to 2030 and the resource implications across the NATO Military Budget, the NATO Security Investment Programme and the Civil Budget, as well as identify potential efficiency measures.​
26. We reaffirm our commitment to respond in a measured, balanced, coordinated, and timely way to Russia’s growing and evolving array of conventional and nuclearcapable missiles, which is increasing in scale and complexity and which poses significant risks from all strategic directions to security and stability across the Euro-Atlantic area.We will continue to implement a coherent and balanced package of political and military measures to achieve Alliance objectives, including strengthened integrated air and missile defence; advanced defensive and offensive conventional capabilities; steps to keep NATO’s nuclear deterrent safe, secure, and effective; efforts to support and strengthen arms control, disarmament, and non-proliferation; intelligence; and exercises. We have no intention to deploy land-based nuclear missiles in Europe collectively in response to this incident. We call on Belarus to abide by international law, respect human rights and fundamental freedoms, and immediately and unconditionally release all political prisoners, including those belonging to the Union of Poles in Belarus. A democratic, sovereign, and stable Belarus is in all of our interests. Allies stand ready for a mutually beneficial NATO-Belarus partnership, taking into account political and security conditions. We will follow the scale, scope, and aftermath of the Zapad-2021 exercise, and continue to call on Russia and Belarus to act in a predictable, transparent way in compliance with their international obligations and OSCE commitments.​
55. China's stated ambitions and assertive behaviour present systemic challenges to the rules-based international order and to areas relevant to Alliance security. We are concerned by those coercive policies which stand in contrast to the fundamental values enshrined in the Washington Treaty. China is rapidly expanding its nuclear arsenal with more warheads and a larger number of sophisticated delivery systems to establish anuclear triad. It is opaque in implementing its military modernisation and its publicly declared military-civil fusion strategy. It is also cooperating militarily with Russia, including through participation in Russian exercises in the Euro-Atlantic area. We remain concerned with China’s frequent lack of transparency and use of disinformation. We call on China to uphold its international commitments and to act responsibly in the international system, including in the space, cyber, and maritime domains, in keeping with its role as a major power.​
56. NATO maintains a constructive dialogue with China where possible. Based on our interests, we welcome opportunities to engage with China on areas of relevance to the Alliance and on common challenges such as climate change. There is value in information exchange on respective policies and activities, to enhance awareness and discuss potential disagreements. Allies urge China to engage meaningfully in dialogue, confidence-building, and transparency measures regarding its nuclear capabilities and doctrine. Reciprocal transparency and understanding would benefit both NATO and China.​
68. We reiterate the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Georgia will become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process; we reaffirm all elements of that decision, as well as subsequent decisions, including that each partner will be judged on its own merits. We stand firm in our support for Georgia’s right to decide its own future and foreign policy course freefrom outside interference. As an Enhanced Opportunities Partner, Georgia is cooperating closely with the Alliance across a wide range of issues. We highly appreciate Georgia’s substantial contributions to NATO operations, which demonstrate its commitment and capability to contribute to Euro-Atlantic security. We welcome the recent political agreement on the Way Ahead for Georgia and encourage its full implementation by all sides. This agreement paves the way for the important reforms which will help Georgia, an aspirant country, progress in its preparations towards membership. We remain committed to making full use of the NATO-Georgia Commission and the Annual National Programme in deepening political dialogue and cooperation. We commend the significant progress on reforms which Georgia has made and must continue to make, and which have helped Georgia strengthen its defence capabilities and interoperability with the Alliance. Georgia’s relationship with the Alliance contains all the practical tools to prepare for eventual membership. We are working closely with Georgia on security in the Black Sea region, in response to Russia’s increasingly destabilising activities, and welcome the steps taken to implement the refreshed Substantial NATO-Georgia Package. We stand ready to enhance our support to Georgia, including in building resilience against hybrid threats, in training and exercises, and in secure communications. We look forward to the next NATO-Georgia exercise in 2022.​
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
NATO Leaders Summit 2021 - Part 2.

69. We reiterate the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process; we reaffirm all elements of that decision, as well as subsequent decisions, including that each partner will be judged on its own merits. We stand firm in our support for Ukraine’s right to decide its own future and foreign policy course free from outside interference. The Annual National Programmes under the NATO-Ukraine Commission (NUC) remain the mechanism by which Ukraine takes forward the reforms pertaining to its aspiration for NATO membership. Ukraine should make full use of all instruments available under the NUC to reach its objective of implementing NATO principles and standards. The success of wide-ranging, sustainable, and irreversible reforms, including combating corruption, promoting an inclusive political process, and decentralisation reform, based on democratic values, respect for human rights, minorities, and the rule of law, will be crucial in laying the groundwork for a prosperous and peaceful Ukraine. Further reforms in the security sector, including the reform of the Security Services of Ukraine, are particularly important. We welcome significant reforms already made by Ukraine and strongly encourage further progress in line with Ukraine’s international obligations and commitments. We will continue to provide practical support to reform in the security and defence sector, including through the Comprehensive Assistance Package. We will also continue to support Ukraine’s efforts to strengthen its resilience against hybrid threats, including through intensifying activities under the NATO- Ukraine Platform on Countering Hybrid Warfare. We welcome the cooperation between NATO and Ukraine with regard to security in the Black Sea region. The Enhanced Opportunities Partner status granted last year provides further impetus to our already ambitious cooperation and will promote greater interoperability, with the option of more joint exercises, training, and enhanced situational awareness. Military cooperation and capacity building initiatives between Allies and Ukraine, including the Lithuanian-PolishUkrainian Brigade, further reinforce this effort. We highly value Ukraine’s significant contributions to Allied operations, the NATO Response Force, and NATO exercises.​
73. We will work more closely with all our Western European partners to share expertise, address emerging security challenges, and continue our cooperation on operations, missions, and other initiatives. We will also seek to further develop relations with our partners across the globe. We are enhancing political dialogue and practical cooperation with our long-standing Asia-Pacific partners – Australia, Japan, New Zealand,and the Republic of Korea – to promote cooperative security and support the rules-based international order. We will discuss common approaches to global security challenges where NATO’s interests are affected, share perspectives through deeper political engagement, and seek concrete areas for cooperation to address shared concerns. We are intensifying our interaction with Colombia, NATO’s partner in Latin America, on good governance, military training, interoperability, demining, and maritime security. We remain open to deepening our political dialogue and intensifying our practical cooperation with our partners in Central Asia, taking into account the regional situation. We welcome the interest of other global actors to work with NATO in addressing our shared security concerns and stand ready to explore further engagement on a case-bycase basis.​


The two stand out items for me are the commitments to continue the membership pathways for Georgia and Ukraine into NATO. That will certainly twist Putin's tail. The wording on China was less than what the US would have liked either. The continued commitment to work with Australia, NZ, Japan and SK was also noted.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This news should make Vlad happy. Just another consequence of his agression against Ukraine. The Russian side of the Russia-Finland will soon be home to all sorts of mothballed Russian military kit I guess. Good luck finding personnel to man all of it Vlad.

Nato expansion: Finland and Sweden set to announce plans to join bloc Nato expansion: Finland and Sweden set to announce plans to join bloc
It's been talked about for the last two weeks. It most likely will happen and with both nations it should be a formality. The only fly in the ointment might be Hungary with Orban blackballing them because he's bit of a Putin fan. He doesn't like the EU and its rules and I think is engaged in a dispute with Brussels at the moment. If he blackballs Finland & Sweden's NATO membership there may be pushback from the other NATO & Euro nations.

Erdogan might think about causing problems too if he sees an advantage for himself, but given the pushback against Putin, I think that he's savvy enough to see that if he did it would backfire badly on him. He's also supplying the Bayraktar UAVs to Ukraine where they are performing well and that works to his advantage. He will also be aware of Putin's intention to return Russia to the USSR boundaries and that would include Azerbaijan, which he has supported in their recent troubles with Armenia. So I think that he will support the Finns and Swedes membership bid.
 
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