Moderated taiwan invasion war game

[exported_kiwi]

I decided to comment

Hi folks, this'd be my second post here, although, I must confess, this is due to lack of knowledge in the face of so many of you. Off topic and sorry, but ever is, as i see it doing quite well. I'm an English teach in China and I can understand his "Chinglish" but it takes time.
Chinese folks are ultra-nationalistic as a result of their "system", so their inability, on the whole, to see the big picture is understandable since it's drummed into them at birth, generally speaking.
On topic; ever, I don't think anybody in their right minds would advocate physical invasion of mainland China and this thread isn't about this. I think it's very apparent that the USAF has assets in theater which can interdict PLAF and PLAN assets before they hit Taiwan, or while underway to Taiwan, which doesn't mean the US will hit the mainland with "boots on the ground" Cruise missiles and stealth can interdict forces and debilitate forces long enough to allow the USN and Taiwanese forces to marshal their forces to provide viable defence.
Sorry folks, I know ever's post is old but I'm just reading through almost every post on this great site, hope I haven't offended anyone or stepped on toes.

Does that mean I have to past some GRE or TOEFL before I hit the button?

You talk about some sense.but you fail to understand that as a none english speaker I have made great effort and sacrifice to try to communicate with you as I giving up my advantage-language and picking up another language in the favour of your interest.

So, am I to be blamed for not mastering english well ?
at least I make effort to try to communicate? but forgive me, where is your effort in this?

I m not a arrogant one and I ll try to mend my post in the future according to your suggestion . but It s neither proper nor just to laugh at my english as long as this is a military forum other than a literature one!

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Hi folks, this'd be my second post here, although, I must confess, this is due to lack of knowledge in the face of so many of you. Off topic and sorry, but ever is, as i see it doing quite well. I'm an English teach in China and I can understand his "Chinglish" but it takes time.

G'day Kiwi, welcome to the boards! Hope your not too homesick, I'm an aussie and i miss NZ!

Chinese folks are ultra-nationalistic as a result of their "system", so their inability, on the whole, to see the big picture is understandable since it's drummed into them at birth, generally speaking.

With a government controlled mass media and a politisized education system i'm not supreised at all. Allthough some of the attitudes i have encountered from young chinese on boards like this have worried me to an extent. There seems to be rampent and growing nationalism in china which is being fueled by PROC's economic and military rise and the media/education system. I dont know this because i've never been there but the fact that a number of Chinese posteres i have run into seem to think tat Korea was a glorious Chinese victory were the whole western world were handed ther asses and the only think that stopped the UN from being pushed off the peninsular was the good graces of the "politburo", indicates to me that the history being tought in chinese schools is of a nationalistic nature.

On topic; ever, I don't think anybody in their right minds would advocate physical invasion of mainland China and this thread isn't about this. I think it's very apparent that the USAF has assets in theater which can interdict PLAF and PLAN assets before they hit Taiwan, or while underway to Taiwan, which doesn't mean the US will hit the mainland with "boots on the ground" Cruise missiles and stealth can interdict forces and debilitate forces long enough to allow the USN and Taiwanese forces to marshal their forces to provide viable defence.

The whole "WW3" scenario portayed some is less relevent i feel. Neither side will want this to escilate beyond the theater.

But the problem does not lay with the defenders mustering a defence in time but the attacker achieveing a logistical mirricle with very limited resources and in the face of a well equiped, sophistocated, determined and capable enemy. This is without US involvement, which understandably makes things a whole lot more complicated for PLA/PLAN/PLAAF.

Sorry folks, I know ever's post is old but I'm just reading through almost every post on this great site, hope I haven't offended anyone or stepped on toes.

No worries mate, this was a stimulateing thread when it was hot, maybe your post will stir up some interest!

 

[exported_kiwi]

A few cents more

Aye discussing this in purely militatry terms wont give a realistic picture of overall PRC stragey, or chances of success.
True, this can't be a purely military equation with nationalism running hot on the mainland. I wonder though, how long it'd take, for parents of dead PRC troops who see their children come home in bodybags, to do something that could be said to be "fractitious" within the PRC. Remember, these folks are, generally, only allowed one child. How many single child families would need to be destroyed before there's a spot of bother within the mainland. The other side to this would be the Taiwanese side, would they embrace a mainland invasion/action or would they resist. There's too many unknown variables, socially without going into the political or military side of things. MY Chinese fiancee says that China'd fight to the last person to regain Taiwan. I argue, why, is a bit of dirt worth dying for? My Taiwanese friends say the same as my lady does.It goes to show the emotive mentalitity that is prevalent here.
As far as the military side of things: landing armour is a no-go I'd imagine. How could the armour be landed in enough quantity to support the invasion. Do we, for a moment assume, that there aren't some form of inert/passive minefields on all the viable landing areas that'd stop vehicles? Assumption loses battles and wars! Can we also assume that, because the eastern side of Taiwan is mountainous and therefore unable to support an amphibious landing, that it too isn't also under surveillance? I think nbot! I'd guess that the Taiwanese are very aware of this fact and have sensors along the whole coast as well as people similar to the old coastwatchers of WW2 all along the place to give a heads up.

Their military build up does not point to invasion, it does point to an across the board upgrading of the PRC's ability to project power. It is with this growing military strenght(while not a direct threat to the USN), coupled with economic and diplomatic clought that the PRC will seek to neutralise the US, rather than any direct trial of strenght. At the moment it would be very easy for the USN to force the PRC to fight on its terms.
Agreed, but doubt whether the PRC has enough leverage outside nukes to actually intimidate thye US into inactivity or nonintervention. All the PRC could possibly do, navally is to station a line of SSK/SSN along the US axis of approach and hope to take some vessels out, but this'd be a short lived battle and wasteful of valuable assets on the PLANs part.
The PLA could fire some of their thousands of missiles, (conventional) to neutralise fixed defensive sites but we know that the Taiwanese know this, so are the sites actually real, or dummies to entice the PRTC into expending munitions on things that aren't there? I'd think that this may be the case and that the real assets are a lot harder to find and neutralise.

I think removing the US from the equation is the key enabler for the PRC.
If they do accomplish this (as unlightly as this seems at the present time), the reabsorbsion of the ROC into mainland China would only be a matter of time.[/QUOTE]

Yep, agreed again, but I doubt that China, as a coastal navy, on the whole, could inhibit the USN in any way short of harrassing it. The USAF can deploy from Guam and Okinawa to interdict and bomb, as well as harrass domestic internal traffic within the PRC using the standoff method. Imagine a lot of civilian air taffic being targetted inside the PRC using BVR weapons, or stealth UAVs or other aircraft types. How many "mysterious crashes" would it take for PRC to want to "negotiate" I wonder.We can't, however, assume that Sth Korea or Japan would allow the US to stage out of bases on their territory, so maybe using Okinawa is out! We have to remember that these nations can't move away once the deeds are done, they're in the neighbourhood for good, for better or worse, so I'd discount them participating short of a threat to them as a national entity, treaties be damned!

I know this is an old thread, and please forgive me bumping it, but it's a fascinating one and one in which I can understand, partially, the mindset of the players having friends in the countries/territories likely to be involved.


Ozzy, thanks and yeah, I miss NZ but would miss my babe more, so here, in the PRC, I stay!

 

[ever4244]

Don t want to be off topic, but since many of you has mention the nationalism in China, I am obligated to remind you that the nalitionalism in China is partly because of history, partly enhanced by the hostile attidute of surrounding environment.

Anyway, the nationalism is the intellecture property of west rather than china. Just by examining the countries who suffered most from war and invation, you would get a clear perceivation that the nalitionalism is a defensive mechanism which prevent the weak being enslaved again--maybe in a more civillized form.

China is large nation, which still cannot be amount to a large one. It is impossible for China to live a rich and peaceful life under the wing of some superpower, for the reason that China's capability to become a superpower would be a potential threat to the any of them.
It is neither likely for chinese who have cultivated the most prosperous civilization in the world would reconcile to remain as the second-class citizens in the world. Therefore, for a large nation, the only way is to up, for the game of throne is a matter of life and death, even if we would like to peaceful rising up, others wont believe it.

Maybe some day, when the whole world become kinder, we will relinquish the nationalism. And in fact, most people I know employ a much minor degree of nationalism than I do. Most chinese appear to be very extreme, but infact they are quite practical. one has to understand that the harmony and moderation is deeply embedded in the chinese culture. Some of them only use nationalism to express their dissatisfaction on the social matters. Such as polarization of wealth and unemployment.

about the freedom of speach in China:
the unwrittened rule is, unformal public speach and private talk is granted with complete freedom. You can hear any kind of comment on the train of plane, no one would bother you.

But publication from organization, especial funded by foreigner may be under some censorship.

I would not talk further about the good or bad of the censorship. but one know some social science is easy to perceive that censorship is closely relate with the educational level of the people. To arbitrarily give up censorship would only resulted in the tyranny of the majority, especial to a country has a weakened value.

Do not neglect another fact that chinese has no establish religion, some thing bonded by religious moral in the west is not bonded in china. When the western demoncracy absorb the value of modern Christianity, we still hesitate between traditional value or communist value. Henceforth, the degree of censorship is higher than west. The case of Hilter will furnish a cogent example. When the old value system is breaking up and the new is yet to establish, the absent of censorship would only give chance to this kind of person.

BTW, there is something I must clarify : Had I ever been required to comment my government in front of some foreigners who workes for the other country's defence agency, The only reply possible from my mouth is :" "back off".

In any nation, to criticize goverment for the sake of the people is a most noble virtue. However, To criticize your country infront of foreign agents is never a virtue--at least in the countries I know. Because the former one promote good in your country while the later one can be used to harm your motherland.

 

[ever4244]

G'day Kiwi, welcome to the boards! Hope your not too homesick, I'm an aussie and i miss NZ!



With a government controlled mass media and a politisized education system i'm not supreised at all. Allthough some of the attitudes i have encountered from young chinese on boards like this have worried me to an extent. There seems to be rampent and growing nationalism in china which is being fueled by PROC's economic and military rise and the media/education system. I dont know this because i've never been there but the fact that a number of Chinese posteres i have run into seem to think tat Korea was a glorious Chinese victory were the whole western world were handed ther asses and the only think that stopped the UN from being pushed off the peninsular was the good graces of the "politburo", indicates to me that the history being tought in chinese schools is of a nationalistic nature.


No worries mate, this was a stimulateing thread when it was hot, maybe your post will stir up some interest!

it seems that the censorship in your nation is not minorer than mine. Since the battle reports of china and US are vast different, you cannot take for granted that one is true and another is false.
Fairly speaking, the equal result of the korea war should already be a shame for the "UN" army, giving consideration of the equipment and national power on both sides. I don see any country except Soviet could get a better result on that kind of war with US. So if any other country can be proud of their soldier why cant we.
BTW, i am sorry if I have ever upset you.

 

[Chino]

I've lived 6 years in Hong Kong and now 6 years in Shanghai.

Do people complain about the government in China? Of course. Isn't this what people all over the world do?

Do people get dragged off by the secret police in China at night for speaking against the government?

NO. So long as all you do is talk.

But people DO get dragged off at night for rioting, arson, murder and plotting to overthrow the government. But so, too, in many parts of the "free" world. If you take action against the government of your country, why in heaven's name do you insist that the government cannot take action against you? Fair's fair.

Some foreigners won't rest until they see China in chaos and ungovernable.

But sorry to disappoint you, if you start handing out automatic weapons on the streets of China tomorrow to start a popular revolt against the Chicom government, you won't find many takers.

...

If Chinese people choose not to want to talk to foreigners about their disdain for their government, maybe it is because their disdain for foreigners is even greater.

But foreigners are the ones denying Chinese people the freedom to choose NOT to say what you are dying to hear. And you accuse them of being fearful, brainwashed etc. Why should Chinese people conform to YOUR definition of freedom?

So get off your high horses... your own governments suck, too, so leave the Chinese alone and mind your own business.

 

[Izzy1]

I've lived 6 years in Hong Kong and now 6 years in Shanghai.

Do people complain about the government in China? Of course. Isn't this what people all over the world do?

Do people get dragged off by the secret police in China at night for speaking against the government?

NO. So long as all you do is talk.

But people DO get dragged off at night for rioting, arson, murder and plotting to overthrow the government. But so, too, in many parts of the "free" world. If you take action against the government of your country, why in heaven's name do you insist that the government cannot take action against you? Fair's fair.

Some foreigners won't rest until they see China in chaos and ungovernable.

But sorry to disappoint you, if you start handing out automatic weapons on the streets of China tomorrow to start a popular revolt against the Chicom government, you won't find many takers.

...

If Chinese people choose not to want to talk to foreigners about their disdain for their government, maybe it is because their disdain for foreigners is even greater.

But foreigners are the ones denying Chinese people the freedom to choose NOT to say what you are dying to hear. And you accuse them of being fearful, brainwashed etc. Why should Chinese people conform to YOUR definition of freedom?

So get off your high horses... your own governments suck, too, so leave the Chinese alone and mind your own business.

Your views and the boldness of them, actually surprise me.

 

[Manfred2]

A thread that just won't die!

The title of this thing includes the phrase "moderated war game".

Does anyone want to give it a try?

 

[tphuang]

There really is no point for this thread to stay open, it pretty much gets into a shouting match everytime (I'm guilty too), so I will just close this one before things re-ignite.